Simms: Gabe Davis is a good player, but he's not a number two

[Nephilim17]

It feels like with Gabe that if you take away the big plays, there's not enough of the steady chain-moving 6 to 10-yard (air yards) plays that we need.

 

From my number 2, I'll take consistently moving the chains over one or two big plays a game but not much else. I think Davis has a very limited route tree and it's hurting our consistency.

[Beck Water]

17 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I still don’t get ‘too reliant on diggs’ … he’s not forcing it into triple coverage all game to get him the ball…diggs is our best pass catcher and he’s pretty much always got a step on his defender and when a play breaks down he always helps out his qb..  our best receiver having what’s likely to be a career year that has been pretty much impossible to stop should be a positive.. 

 

gabe is certainly frustrating though lol 

 

You'd have to ask Simms exactly what he means by that "too reliant on Diggs" thing.

 

Right now, Tyreek Hill has 59 targets and 814 yds for the Fins.  Waddle is trailing him with 35 targets and 296 yds.  Does that mean the Fins are "too reliant on Hill"?  I think it means Hill is their best receiver and is very difficult to shut down in the way they're using him.

 

While I stand by it that "#2 WR" has become the new "Franchise QB" around here, I do understand Simm's point.  Gabe racks up yards because he's used deep on lower percentage throws.  He doesn't seem to have the route-running chops and full route tree of a receiver like Waddle, who has been a #1 receiver in his time and who can happily take over the game and put up yards, if a team sets out to throttle down Hill.  I don't think any of us see Gabe as able to do that. ***

 

16 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

It feels like with Gabe that if you take away the big plays, there's not enough of the steady chain-moving 6 to 10-yard (air yards) plays that we need.

 

From my number 2, I'll take consistently moving the chains over one or two big plays a game but not much else. I think Davis has a very limited route tree and it's hurting our consistency.

 

I think that last is correct, as is the "consistently" part.

 

Different teams fill needs in different ways, but again, it's a fact that the consistent chain mover as well as the #2 guy for targets and yards was Beasley, from 2019-2021.

 

***Edit: Davis has certainly taken over a handful of games - notably 1 playoff game per season (2020 Colts, 2021 KC, 2022 MIA).  He's also had a couple of 100 yd games, most recently 8 targets, 6 receptions against Jacksonville; 6 receptions for 93 yds against Minnesota in 2020; couple of 5 reception games against Tampa and Carolina in 2021.  Just to give the man his propers.  But those are like 4 games in 3 years.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Beck Water

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

3 hours ago, SydneyBillsFan said:

 

I was one of the koolaid drinkers here when it came to Gabe Davis. I really thought that he would finally hit his peak in a contract year. I think at this point he is what he is and is not going to get any better. You could certainly do lot worse though. He’s a mid-tier #2 with slightly inflated stats because of who is QB is. If you put Davis on a team like the Cardinals I don’t think half the fans would even know who he was. If he doesn’t accept a fair contract then I would rather roll with a rookie. Buffalo absolutely needs to go WR in round 1. 

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

While I stand by it that "#2 WR" has become the new "Franchise QB" around here,

 

That's good stuff

[newcam2012]

28 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

It should be way too early to say Kincaid isn't that guy even for the most negative posters.  They definitely should've upgraded at WR2 though which is why most of us were clamoring for Hopkins.

What makes you think he can be the guy? Six games in and he's an afterthought. He's obviously not in the game plan. Sure it's possible but it really seems unlikely he becomes the WR2 on the team. 

 

To say he's been a disappointment is an understatement. The high expectations six games in have been shattered. However, it mostly because the Bills coaching don't know what the F they are doing. In fairness, Kincaid has played well in his limited dink and dunk role. Why you move up in the draft to play him like that is mind boggling. Total incompetence. This organization can F up a wet dream. Will 13 seconds be the norm? 

 

Signed one frustrated Bills fan. 

[Doc Brown]

27 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

What makes you think he can be the guy? Six games in and he's an afterthought. He's obviously not in the game plan. Sure it's possible but it really seems unlikely he becomes the WR2 on the team. 

 

To say he's been a disappointment is an understatement. The high expectations six games in have been shattered. However, it mostly because the Bills coaching don't know what the F they are doing. In fairness, Kincaid has played well in his limited dink and dunk role. Why you move up in the draft to play him like that is mind boggling. Total incompetence. This organization can F up a wet dream. Will 13 seconds be the norm? 

 

Signed one frustrated Bills fan. 

His overall skill set coming out of college.  His production in college.  Calm down Veruca Salt.  Rookie TE's take longer to reach their potential and that includes even the most polished TE's coming out of college.  You usually don't even see rookie first round WR's who are successful take off until the second half of their rookie year.  Getting acclimated to the speed of the game and developing rapport with your QB takes time.  I guess my expectations of him so far have equaled the reality.  It's why I was clamoring for at least a temporary upgrade (Hopkins) at WR2 his rookie year.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Doc Brown

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, BigDingus said:

What does "not a number 2" even mean anymore?

 

Do you really mean he's not a number 1 playing the number 2 role like Jalen Waddle, Tee Higgins, Tyler Lockett or Devonta Smith?

 

What kind of production do you want out of your WR2? The vast majority of NFL teams would be thrilled to have a WR2 that puts up 800+ yards, 7 TD's & extends the field like Gabe does.

 

Even right now, he's ranked #27 in receiving yards (automatically putting him ahead of multiple #1's), tied for 4th place in TD's with 5 others (ahead of others like Jamar Chase, Amon-Ra St. Brown, Travis Kelce, Mike Evans, and many other WR1's, TE's, and RB's), and is only 61st in receptions. 

 

I'd say he's more than adequate as a WR2, with the only issue being he's not as big a threat in the short-intermediate game as we'd like.

 

I agree with everything here except for your last line. I don't think Gabe is "more than adequate" as a #2. I think he is a bottom end #2. He is a low volume high output guy, not someone you can really pivot to is a team is doing a good job taking your #1 away. 

 

But he is going to get paid as a #2. I expect $13m or thereabouts. Not from the Bills though. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Chris Simms is a turnip 

[newcam2012]

5 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

His overall skill set coming out of college.  His production in college.  Calm down Veruca Salt.  Rookie TE's take longer to reach their potential and that includes even the most polished TE's coming out of college.  You usually don't even see rookie first round WR's who are successful take off until the second half of their rookie year.  Getting acclimated to the speed of the game and developing rapport with your QB takes time.  I guess my expectations of him so far have equaled the reality.  It's why I was clamoring for at least a temporary upgrade (Hopkins) at WR2 his rookie year.

I'm calm. The general theme for months on this board was how Kincaid was going to be a huge asset, spread out the defense, catch passes in the seam, be a weapon, take over the WR2, and basically be a slit player. 

 

The general theme of what you are saying was not the consensus here. The tune has changed. The goalposts have moved for the worst. 

 

Heck, Beane even talked about his skillet. The Bills 12 personnel sets aren't scaring any defenses. I envisioned a completely different version on what's happening. I was hoping for a Patriot like offense

(Gronk and Hernandez). Instead, we see Knox blocking and of going off for 5 yard catches. Same for Kincaid. It's a joke man.

 

Dorsey doesn't know what he's doing. McD is head deep in the defense. He offers zero to the offensive side of the ball.

 

This team has no offensive identity. The offensive is very good because of Allen and Diggs. That's it in a nutshell. 

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree with everything here except for your last line. I don't think Gabe is "more than adequate" as a #2. I think he is a bottom end #2. He is a low volume high output guy, not someone you can really pivot to is a team is doing a good job taking your #1 away. 

 

But he is going to get paid as a #2. I expect $13m or thereabouts. Not from the Bills though. 

Too many bad things happen when the ball comes his way.  Drops, fumbles, trips-and-falls, surprisingly uncontested interceptions.  He is a black hole who sucks points out of the offense.  His teammates and coaches love him but Beane had better be sober in his evaluation of that position.  It’s a huge need.  Lost in this daily insufferable “Is Davis a Number 2?” debate is the reality that if Diggs were to miss any time, the offense would fall off a cliff because Davis would be completely unable to step up and fill the void - one of the underrated aspects of being a true “number 2” receiver.

 

But these daily Davis threads make me want to go take a number two.

[Negan]

Bills need a young Emanuel Sanders type wr as a compliment to Diggs.  Davis is too inconsistent and has no underneath ability whatsoever.

[juno999]

10 hours ago, Maine-iac said:

The problem isn't that Gabe isn't a #2 WR.  The problem is that there is no one catching passes outside of him and Diggs.  If we had a slot WR or TE who caught lots of underneath stuff and ran the seam once in a while (like Beasley used to) then we wouldn't be so focused on Davis catching 90 passes being more like Diggs.  We need a chain mover and Davis isn't a chain mover therefore it must be Davis's fault, except it isn't.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by juno999

[juno999]

51 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Too many bad things happen when the ball comes his way.  Drops, fumbles, trips-and-falls, surprisingly uncontested interceptions.  He is a black hole who sucks points out of the offense.  His teammates and coaches love him but Beane had better be sober in his evaluation of that position.  It’s a huge need.  Lost in this daily insufferable “Is Davis a Number 2?” debate is the reality that if Diggs were to miss any time, the offense would fall off a cliff because Davis would be completely unable to step up and fill the void - one of the underrated aspects of being a true “number 2” receiver.

 

But these daily Davis threads make me want to go take a number two.

It's still early in the season, but I'd put WR at the top of draft needs.  I think Davis is Edmunds part deux.

[Andrew Son]

8 hours ago, Rocbillsfan1 said:

Just because he’s putting up some numbers because we have Josh Allen and a productive offense at times doesn’t mean he’s the 27th best wr. I wouldn’t put him in the top 50 that’s for sure.

Putting him in the top 27 would make him a #1.  To not be a number 2 he'd have to fall out of the top 60.

 

It's such a dumb argument.  No, he's not a high end #2 but he's certainly a #2

[juno999]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

I'm calm. The general theme for months on this board was how Kincaid was going to be a huge asset, spread out the defense, catch passes in the seam, be a weapon, take over the WR2, and basically be a slit player. 

 

The general theme of what you are saying was not the consensus here. The tune has changed. The goalposts have moved for the worst. 

 

Heck, Beane even talked about his skillet. The Bills 12 personnel sets aren't scaring any defenses. I envisioned a completely different version on what's happening. I was hoping for a Patriot like offense

(Gronk and Hernandez). Instead, we see Knox blocking and of going off for 5 yard catches. Same for Kincaid. It's a joke man.

 

Dorsey doesn't know what he's doing. McD is head deep in the defense. He offers zero to the offensive side of the ball.

 

This team has no offensive identity. The offensive is very good because of Allen and Diggs. That's it in a nutshell. 

I think the Bills are still figuring things out offensively.  Their running game is much better and they're getting much better running production in the red zone this year.  Brown is still a weak link so Knox stays in and blocks a Lot.  Kincaid is just a rookie but he's catching pretty much everything thrown his way.  Need to upgrade Davis in off-season.

[BeavercreekBillsFan]

Gabe as our #2 leaves us with little options when teams focus on Diggs which is the point. If Diggs isn’t open, what’s left? That’s the crux of the argument. Gabe can only run one route to stretch the field, and that’s all. He’s not good at anything else. So when Diggs is blanketed, we either (a) take a low percentage throw downfield which sometimes does work or (b) pray josh can make something out of nothing. The issue is you need the #2 to be more versatile and be able to run routes in other areas of the field. Theoretically he should be able to eat with so much focus on Diggs. He should be matched up against the #2 Cb so he should be able to get open. Gabe really can’t. We need a chain mover and route runner too. Let Gabe go to the giants. WRs are easier to find now than ever. It’s embarrassing that giving josh these weapons is all we’ve come up with. 

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, BeavercreekBillsFan said:

Gabe as our #2 leaves us with little options when teams focus on Diggs which is the point. If Diggs isn’t open, what’s left? That’s the crux of the argument. Gabe can only run one route to stretch the field, and that’s all. He’s not good at anything else. So when Diggs is blanketed, we either (a) take a low percentage throw downfield which sometimes does work or (b) pray josh can make something out of nothing. The issue is you need the #2 to be more versatile and be able to run routes in other areas of the field. Theoretically he should be able to eat with so much focus on Diggs. He should be matched up against the #2 Cb so he should be able to get open. Gabe really can’t. We need a chain mover and route runner too. Let Gabe go to the giants. WRs are easier to find now than ever. It’s embarrassing that giving josh these weapons is all we’ve come up with. 

That is simply not true if one actually watches games.  He runs plenty of intermediate out routes.

[FLFan]

He should know about poor number 2s since he was one.  

[Beast]

We are starting to see that Brandon Beane has failed in surrounding Allen with weapons. He gets high marks for Diggs and average to failing grades with the rest.

[newcam2012]

11 minutes ago, juno999 said:

I think the Bills are still figuring things out offensively.  Their running game is much better and they're getting much better running production in the red zone this year.  Brown is still a weak link so Knox stays in and blocks a Lot.  Kincaid is just a rookie but he's catching pretty much everything thrown his way.  Need to upgrade Davis in off-season.

I hear what you are saying but I have to ask these questions and be critical of some decisions 

 

Do you think it was a mistake to go into the season with Davis as the WR2? Same for Spencer Brown? I mean the evidence was there to see neither guy was likely up to the task. 

 

The run game is still inconsistent and the use of Cook as a pass receiver is non existent. The Bills have decided to tie Allen's legs together so he doesn't run. That makes the Bills much less dangerous to defend. I get you don't want him to get injured. If that's the case he shouldn't pass because that's how QBs mostly get injured. 

 

Hard to believe the offense is a work in progress. It's mostly due to incompetence by the coaching staff. They have had all off season and six games to figure things out. I mean how long does it take? What the identity of the offense? I have no clue. 12 personnel seems awful ineffective and non explosive. The run still gets abandoned or is ineffective. Runs between the tackles in shotgun formation are mostly ineffective but Dorsey still pounds that drum. The offense is predictable. The saving grace is Allen and his ability to make plays. A perfect example was the TD pass to Quinton. 

 

You pay Knox all that money to block? How good use of salary is that? How effective does that stretch defenses in 22 personnel? 

 

I have little confidence Dorsey will figure things out. This offense goes only as far as Allen takes it. He will need to be Superman once again. A common occurrence for years now.