Simms: Gabe Davis is a good player, but he's not a number two

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

No doubt.  We obviously disagree as to the extent that coaching is implicated.  

 

As sunshynman just said, there are far too many times where multiple receivers are in the same exact spot or other such issues, that have nothing to do with the WR-ing talent.  Among other issues that are not directly related to the talent.  

 

Also, If they cannot take a proven good-hands and excellent route-running talent like Kincaid, and get a little bit more than what's presently pacing for 334 yards, 0 TDs, a dozen 1st-Downs, all on fewer than 7 Yards-per-Catch, it's a tough battle claiming that coaching isn't the biggest reason for that ridiculous output.  I think most people here will be stunned if Kincaid doesn't put up at least what Knox did last season.  

 

And at the very minimum then, start holding Beane accountable for drafts that force us to go the free-agency route.  

 

 

I don't think Dorsey is an all world offensive talent at OC or anything. I think he is a good coach learning on the job and is doing a very respectable job working w what he has.

 

Route design or spacing can be a coaching issue or a player issue tbh, as for Kincaid 400 or so yards was what some of us put down when we did preseason projections. He's a rookie so I don't know how proven a talent you can argue he is. He looks good sometimes and other times not so good.

 

And I definitely blame the FO for not putting enough talent on the offensive side of the ball, but also realistic when it comes to expectations for this particular group.

 

[PBF81]

15 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't think Dorsey is an all world offensive talent at OC or anything. I think he is a good coach learning on the job and is doing a very respectable job working w what he has.

 

We'll see how this season progresses.  But there's a strong argument for having an "all world" or at least highly experienced OC for Allen and the offense at this point.  

 

In terms of coaching, the offense has seemingly been the red-headed stepchild of the team on McD's watch.  

 

This season will reveal much, but McD's taking risks with his tenure as a HC if he doesn't address the situation if it doesn't correct itself.  

 

 

15 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Route design or spacing can be a coaching issue or a player issue tbh, as for Kincaid 400 or so yards was what some of us put down when we did preseason projections. He's a rookie so I don't know how proven a talent you can argue he is. He looks good sometimes and other times not so good.  

 

One of his strengths coming out is route-running.  So once we start blaming the players, and a rookie who was arguably the strongest route-running prospect among all TEs in the draft, and a strong candidate to make an impact as a rookie, then those fingers doing the pointing begin to go limp.  

 

 

15 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

And I definitely blame the FO for not putting enough talent on the offensive side of the ball, but also realistic when it comes to expectations for this particular group.

 

Agree

 

 

[Richard Noggin]

21 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

You know this how?

 

Lol I've stood next to him on many occasions. It's not who he is or what he's capable of. Which is okay.

[FireChans]

9 hours ago, Mango said:

 

Bengals - All of those players on a rookie contracts - Nobody is saying the Bills shouldn't draft a WR

Rams - if we can sign OBJ to a $850k deal we should do it. Also Kupp cost them $2M that year. Woods wasn't on the roster. 

Philly - QB on a rookie contract. You can choose their win or their loss. But both had next to zero cost at the QB position. 

San Fran - Sure, go ahead, get rid of the QB contract, go get me a 7th rounder to play the position, then use that money to sign all the skill positions. 

We should've drafted a WR last year. Or the year before.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

This is a really good question.

 

For some context, in 2019, the Bills #2 in yards and targets was Cole Beasley, with 106 targets for 778 yards 8.4 Y/R, 34 1D

2020, Beasley again, 107 targets for 967 yards 11.8 Y/R, 58 1D

2021, Beasley 112 receptions, 693 yds, but less Y/R 7.8, and fewer 1D 34

 

I take some flak for this, but I feel (and Chris Simms seems to agree) that what the Bills offense needs is a reliable outlet on short and intermediate routes, who is almost always open and can get those 1Ds and keep the chains moving.  So on that question, is 600-800 yds a year enough? it depends on the yards.  If it's 6-8 yds consistently on 2nd and 10 to put us in 3rd and short, or 5 yards on 3rd and 4 to get the 1D - it's probably enough. 

 

If we have that AND the 900-ish yards Davis is on pace to generate, that will probably be enough.

 

 

 

The Bills had a reliable outlet on short and intermediate routes as their WR2 from 2019-2021 and weren't even that close to reaching a Super Bowl (getting dismantled early in their one AFCCG appearance).

 

The 6 teams that reached those 3 SB's all had a more talented second options.

 

In an effort to find answers I can see why some Bills fans are rationalizing that maybe just adding a role player(read:cheap/slot) would level the playing field in the postseason with teams like Cinci/SF/Philly/KC........but that's a tall order.    

 

Even if you believe that maybe they can get by KC because KC isn't getting great immediate results from all those 2nd and 3rd round picks they've expended on wide receivers the past couple seasons........you still likely have to beat at least 1 or 2 more of that group and Miami to win a SB.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by BADOLBILZ

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The Bills had a reliable outlet on short and intermediate routes as their WR2 from 2019-2021 and weren't even that close to reaching a Super Bowl (getting dismantled early in their one AFCCG appearance).

 

The 6 teams that reached those 3 SB's all had a more talented second options.

 

In an effort to find answers I can see why some Bills fans are rationalizing that maybe just adding a role player(read:cheap/slot) would level the playing field in the postseason with teams like Cinci/SF/Philly/KC........but that's a tall order.    

 

Even if you believe that maybe they can get by KC because KC isn't getting great immediate results from all those 2nd and 3rd round picks they've expended on wide receivers the past couple seasons........you still likely have to beat at least 1 or 2 more of that group and Miami to win a SB.

 

 

Counterpoint:

 

We have beaten Miami 3 out of the last 4 with the deficient Gabe Davis and no slot WR.  So I think we'll be okay on that front.

 

KC also beat the Eagles last season in the SB with worse second options.  And beat the Bengals with worse second options to get there.

 

Now, there are other reasons KC wins, namely the best QB in football and the best offensive coach in football, but still.

 

I think serious questions about offensive roster management need to be discussed at this point.  I think everyone, even folks that like Gabe, can agree that Diggs/Davis/Sherfield/Harty ain't enough juice in the WR room with Dorsey behind the wheel.

Edited October 20, 2023 by FireChans

[78thealltimegreat]

Gabe is going to get at least 15 mill a year from some WR needy team. This is an excellent draft for WRs Bills have 10 picks including 4 in the first 3 rounds. They can upgrade. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

35 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The Bills had a reliable outlet on short and intermediate routes as their WR2 from 2019-2021 and weren't even that close to reaching a Super Bowl (getting dismantled early in their one AFCCG appearance).

 

The 6 teams that reached those 3 SB's all had a more talented second options.

 

In an effort to find answers I can see why some Bills fans are rationalizing that maybe just adding a role player(read:cheap/slot) would level the playing field in the postseason with teams like Cinci/SF/Philly/KC........but that's a tall order.    

 

Even if you believe that maybe they can get by KC because KC isn't getting great immediate results from all those 2nd and 3rd round picks they've expended on wide receivers the past couple seasons........you still likely have to beat at least 1 or 2 more of that group and Miami to win a SB.

 

 

This is a great reminder. 

 

WGR (especially the morning show) pine for "easy button" Cole Beasley routes again - and that's the role they pegged Dalton Kincaid for, and maybe to some degree Brandon Beane.

 

They constantly equate the Bills and Chiefs as the same team because the betting odds are the same. 

 

There is a gap, and the Bills need more playmaking. Chris Simms is correct, just as he was when he pointed this out last year. 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

44 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Counterpoint:

 

We have beaten Miami 3 out of the last 4 with the deficient Gabe Davis and no slot WR.  So I think we'll be okay on that front.

 

KC also beat the Eagles last season in the SB with worse second options.  And beat the Bengals with worse second options to get there.

 

Now, there are other reasons KC wins, namely the best QB in football and the best offensive coach in football, but still.

 

I think serious questions about offensive roster management need to be discussed at this point.  I think everyone, even folks that like Gabe, can agree that Diggs/Davis/Sherfield/Harty ain't enough juice in the WR room with Dorsey behind the wheel.

 

 

If the counterpoint there can be EXCEPTIONS.....

 

Of course.    The Broncos won a SB with Peyton Manning at QB after he threw 9 TD and 17 INT.     So stranger things have happened.

 

The point is that the overwhelming majority of teams that have reached SB's in the past decade or so have had 2 star receiving options.

 

[Mango]

15 hours ago, FireChans said:

We should've drafted a WR last year. Or the year before.

I don’t disagree. Part of point is me yelling at the collective clouds who keep trying to sing a $15-20M receiver to line up next to Diggs. 
 

When you pay your guys, you have to draft well and identify cheap FA with specific skill sets to fill specific roles. We can do better at both those things.
 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Mango
Why do the Sabres still suck

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

If the counterpoint there can be EXCEPTIONS.....

 

Of course.    The Broncos won a SB with Peyton Manning at QB after he threw 9 TD and 17 INT.     So stranger things have happened.

 

The point is that the overwhelming majority of teams that have reached SB's in the past decade or so have had 2 star receiving options.

 

There's no doubt that 2 great WR's can help.

 

I guess my question is: What does this mean to you in the context of the Bills in 2023?  You have the opinion that Gabe hasn't grown his game since his rookie year (which I pretty much agree with), right?  That despite outplaying his draft status, he just hasn't been good enough to fill the role we needed out of him, right? So why over the last 2 years has he been trotted out there to fill the role of our "1B?"  That's not Gabe's decision. Who do you blame for the state of the Bills' WR room?  Did you think Gabe had the potential to become that guy and just hasn't?

1 minute ago, Mango said:

I don’t agree. Part of point is me yelling at the collective clouds who keep trying to sing a $15-20M receiver to line up next to Diggs. 
 

When you pay your guys, you have to draft well and identify cheap FA with specific skill sets to fill specific roles. We can do better at both those things.
 

 

You don't agree that we should've drafted a WR higher than the fourth round in the last 4 years at least once with a superstar QB?

[Mango]

12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

There's no doubt that 2 great WR's can help.

 

I guess my question is: What does this mean to you in the context of the Bills in 2023?  You have the opinion that Gabe hasn't grown his game since his rookie year (which I pretty much agree with), right?  That despite outplaying his draft status, he just hasn't been good enough to fill the role we needed out of him, right? So why over the last 2 years has he been trotted out there to fill the role of our "1B?"  That's not Gabe's decision. Who do you blame for the state of the Bills' WR room?  Did you think Gabe had the potential to become that guy and just hasn't?

You don't agree that we should've drafted a WR higher than the fourth round in the last 4 years at least once with a superstar QB?

ahhh shirt. That was supposed to be disagree. I don’t disagree. 
 

Sorry I watched the Sabres. Depression is setting in. 

[Rocbillsfan1]

14 hours ago, SWATeam said:

Putting him in the top 27 would make him a #1.  To not be a number 2 he'd have to fall out of the top 60.

 

It's such a dumb argument.  No, he's not a high end #2 but he's certainly a #2

You still don’t get it. You’re making it all about his numbers instead of his actual talent. These are 2 separate issues. 

[Beck Water]

 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The Bills had a reliable outlet on short and intermediate routes as their WR2 from 2019-2021 and weren't even that close to reaching a Super Bowl (getting dismantled early in their one AFCCG appearance).

 

The 6 teams that reached those 3 SB's all had a more talented second options.

 

In an effort to find answers I can see why some Bills fans are rationalizing that maybe just adding a role player(read:cheap/slot) would level the playing field in the postseason with teams like Cinci/SF/Philly/KC........but that's a tall order.    

 

Even if you believe that maybe they can get by KC because KC isn't getting great immediate results from all those 2nd and 3rd round picks they've expended on wide receivers the past couple seasons........you still likely have to beat at least 1 or 2 more of that group and Miami to win a SB.

 

 

 

Let’s start by seeing if we can establish some grounds for agreement:

 

I do not think we currently have the same level of offensive talent currently that we had in 2021.  We did not do an adequate job of replacing Sanders and Beasley, who were both “on the downhill slide” but better in their respective roles in 2021 than Davis and McKenzie in 2022.  We have the potential for a better run game/pass catching RB and a better pass catching TE, but that potential has not yet been realized,

 

That said: do you truly believe that offensive talent was the issue in the Bills missing out on the AFCCG by 13 seconds in 2021?  If you do, can you outline your arguements for that belief?

 

 

[Scott7975]

8 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

Davis could be your WR2 if you have a really good slot presence like 2019-2020 Cole Beasley. The issue is the Bills do not have that short to mid range consistent threat.

well if we had a really good slot then said slot would be our #2, not Davis. 

[BADOLBILZ]

53 minutes ago, FireChans said:

There's no doubt that 2 great WR's can help.

 

I guess my question is: What does this mean to you in the context of the Bills in 2023?  You have the opinion that Gabe hasn't grown his game since his rookie year (which I pretty much agree with), right?  That despite outplaying his draft status, he just hasn't been good enough to fill the role we needed out of him, right? So why over the last 2 years has he been trotted out there to fill the role of our "1B?"  That's not Gabe's decision. Who do you blame for the state of the Bills' WR room?  Did you think Gabe had the potential to become that guy and just hasn't?

You don't agree that we should've drafted a WR higher than the fourth round in the last 4 years at least once with a superstar QB?

 

 

Because of the big influx of WR talent that began in 2018 (after several near bereft draft classes) having 2 or 3 very good receivers has become much more possible and more of a necessity than a luxury.

 

And no.........I don't blame Gabe at all.    He just doesn't have the ability to do the things he hasn't been able to do, IMO.   He's a very nice specialized deep threat option for Josh Allen.   I blame McBeane.

[Beck Water]

7 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I agree.  With our current personnel I would like to see more short, high percentage, passing to Cook/Kincaid and Knox.  You still have Diggs targeted a lot, and slightly reduce the number of targets to Gabe.   We've seen flashes that this could be potent.  I think McDemott was talking to this.

 

I’d just like to make the point, that both Davis and especially Diggs, could have their targets reduced a bit without reducing their offensive contributions (catches and yards) diminished at all - the reason being that at times Allen is making extremely low percentage throws or even throwing balls away in their direction, when he should be getting the throw out in rhythm and on time to Cook or Kincaid.  

 

Knox, needs to clean up whatever has caused his catch % to drop and his drop % to climb towards his rookie and 2nd year.

[BADOLBILZ]

26 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

Let’s start by seeing if we can establish some grounds for agreement:

 

I do not think we currently have the same level of offensive talent currently that we had in 2021.  We did not do an adequate job of replacing Sanders and Beasley, who were both “on the downhill slide” but better in their respective roles in 2021 than Davis and McKenzie in 2022.  We have the potential for a better run game/pass catching RB and a better pass catching TE, but that potential has not yet been realized,

 

That said: do you truly believe that offensive talent was the issue in the Bills missing out on the AFCCG by 13 seconds in 2021?  If you do, can you outline your arguements for that belief?

 

 

 

 

Not too worried about duplicating the 2021 offensive talent comparison because I don't(and didn't) think they had done enough then either.    They proved that during the season with their inconsistency and low floor.   They had a great game against the Pats but IMO still needed a lucky break that the Chiefs secondary was so banged up in that 13 seconds game that Davis didn't have to face a CB2 level CB......but Diggs was still held to just 7 total yards by Spags' scheming.    That's the problem with not enough weapons at WR.   Diggs can be schemed out of the offense by a good defense because there isn't anyone whose a tough cover in the Bills receiving corps besides him.      

 

Also, fwiw,  I've come to realize that the Bengals probably beat the Bills at home in that AFCCG if they had managed to win in KC.    Styles make fights and the Bengals styles  on O and D are a bad matchup for the Bills.   They have given the Chiefs all they can handle too.........but in the two Bills/Bengals meetings last year they looked totally overmatched.    

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

Let’s start by seeing if we can establish some grounds for agreement:

 

I do not think we currently have the same level of offensive talent currently that we had in 2021.  We did not do an adequate job of replacing Sanders and Beasley, who were both “on the downhill slide” but better in their respective roles in 2021 than Davis and McKenzie in 2022.  We have the potential for a better run game/pass catching RB and a better pass catching TE, but that potential has not yet been realized,

 

That said: do you truly believe that offensive talent was the issue in the Bills missing out on the AFCCG by 13 seconds in 2021?  If you do, can you outline your arguements for that belief?

 

 

Offensively, the Bills went to sleep in that 13 seconds game at moments. I know we like to fondly remember it as a near perfect game from Josh (and it was), but we had 4 punts to the Chiefs 2, we were 6-14 on third down (Chiefs were 8-13) and the Chiefs had 10 more offensive plays and over 130 yards more of offense.

 

Josh Allen made some miracle plays to keep the game alive. the Bills were 4/4 on 4th down, in large part due to Allen putting basically the rest of the offense on his back. 
 

I would say the 13 seconds game was probably the best performance of Josh’s career considering the stakes, the moment, and the gigantic plays he made. But I wouldn’t say the rest of the offense was the same.

[Beast]

If he’s not a #2 then he’s a #4. Your 3 wr needs to be a shifty, underneath guy with sure hands that finds the sticks.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Beast