OLINE/QB UNFORCED ERROR REVIEW - ALL 22 - WEEK 6 GIANTS

[Scott7975]

1 minute ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Gotta remember that 2 out of 5 offensive line players are new additions and one is a rookie. They also played two good defensive lines in recent weeks. The Giants DT combo is a better one in the league Thibodeaux is talented off the edge and the Jags have a good D-line and they had the whole London advantage fiasco. 

 

I think that the offensive line is still playing well all things considered. I can say that I do not feel that the offensive struggles in the past two weeks are that much on the offensive line esp in the Giants game. I think I felt like the offensive line dominated the ground game against the Giants (running right at their strength at DT and MLB none less) and gave Josh enough protection to be successful it was just the missed field goal and the two turnovers that sputtered the offense to score nothing (the Gabe fumble being the really egregious error as the Josh pick was the result of a very strong defensive play). 

 

I will say that the offensive line did share a good share of the blame against the Jags as I do think the Jags were able to generate pressure with their front four at a far too consistent rate. But once that whole game was just not a great example of the team's talents due to various factors. I feel like with more experience Mitch and the new guards will only get better at communication which will only help them at picking up stunts. Better to work out the kinks in October and November. 

 

TLDR: The offensive line is still 40% new players including a rookie and they still did a solid job against the Giants as the Giants were gashed completely in the ground game and had to stunt constantly to get pressure. The line will improve their communication with more time together and film study. 

I disagree.  We can't keep saying that we just played a dominant line every week.  Been doing that since week 1.  Also, it's mostly Brown that has been a problem with this line.  He gets smoked too often because he is slow.  Too slow for speed rushers. The only time he did a decent job is when we take out TE's out of being available for passing routes to help chip the defender into position... again because Brown is too slow to get there on his own.  It's problem is two fold because he aint good enough and because it takes away passing targets to supplement that.

[Simon]

18 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

The offensive line is still 40% new players including a rookie and they still did a solid job against the Giants as the Giants were gashed completely in the ground game and had to stunt constantly to get pressure. The line will improve their communication with more time together and film study.

 

All those twist and stunts are just hell on your run D.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

There were moments where Josh is looking right at an open Murray on first and 10.

 

He was looking at Murrary to try and move Okereke with his eyes towards the flat to open the window for Knox. Honestly on that play I tip my cap to Okereke for just making a great play. Josh hits that throw 9 times out of 10. Okereke obviously studied the film so he knew exactly where to drop and timed his jump just right. The Giants back 7 players in general played very disciplined football. They didn't take any of our bait. They stayed right in the middle of their conflict areas when the play called for it.

 

We are going to have to live with INTs since we have an elite QB. Every year the league leaders in INTs are mostly the best QBs. If you want the TD throw to Morris, you have to live with him trying to fit a ball into a tight window that ends up tipped and picked. You don't get one without the other.

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Simon said:

Thanks again for doing this.

And thanks for confirming my suspicion that McGovern had, by far, his worst game as a Bill.

It's going to happen.  He has far less bad days than good ones.  He is a good guard and a massive upgrade from the recent turnstiles we had there.

2 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Giants defense was nearly flawless imo…they were able to disguise coverages long enough to get pass rushers home pretty much all night and their stunts were massively effective.  I know it’s the ‘giants’ but that was probably the best opponent defensive performance we’ve seen all year 

 

couldn’t even help those OL out much…cook forgot how to pass block also 

I got bashed for this in some other thread, but did the Giants give an overall blueprint on how to attack our offense until we figure out how to counter? ( And I have very little faith Dorsey can figure that out)

[Simon]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

If you want the TD throw to Morris

 

I absolutely despised that throw on 2nd and short before it had even completely left his hand.

I was in the process of mf'ing poor Josh when Morris caught it for a score.  

 

9 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

It's going to happen.  He has far less bad days than good ones.  He is a good guard and a massive upgrade from the recent turnstiles we had there.

 

Yeah I get that and I wasn't trying to rag on him; I've been thrilled with the massive upgrade.

I think it was probably sooooo noticeable just because of how good he had been up that point.

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

I disagree.  We can't keep saying that we just played a dominant line every week.  Been doing that since week 1.  Also, it's mostly Brown that has been a problem with this line.  He gets smoked too often because he is slow.  Too slow for speed rushers. The only time he did a decent job is when we take out TE's out of being available for passing routes to help chip the defender into position... again because Brown is too slow to get there on his own.  It's problem is two fold because he aint good enough and because it takes away passing targets to supplement that.

I was responding to the idea that the Bills offensive line is getting burnt by stunts and it is a weakness for the offensive line. I think the more the new guards play with Mitch and the tackles the more they will improve at communicating and picking up stunts. 
 

I will agree that Brown is the weak link of the line. And while he is better than the total liability he was last season he still needs help in pass protection which is a limitation the offense needs to work around. I will say that Brown is playing well in run blocking which is helping the Bills establish a conventional ground game more consistently.

 

 

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

I had so much hope for this oline after their fairly good start.  Outside of Brown. They seem to be getting worse as the weeks go on. A weakness was spotted with the stunts and other teams are replicating it but our line isn't getting better at it.  It also doesn't help that Josh doesn't run anymore. That threat made D's play different. The run game that we have, while better, still isn't good enough to strike fear.

Well said Scott.

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, Rubes said:

I wasn't watching very closely at the time, but after the fracas with multiple personal fouls I noticed Brown came out of the game. Was that due to injury? Was he benched? Did he come back in the game later?

 

 

 

Sounds like injury or examination for injury.  Played 95% of the snaps so apparently came back in after being examined.

 

38 minutes ago, Simon said:

I absolutely despised that throw on 2nd and short before it had even completely left his hand.

I was in the process of mf'ing poor Josh when Morris caught it for a score.  

 

 

Or as Hyde was caught on mic'd up saying of a similar throw to Gabe Davis: "Don't throw it, Don't Throw It, DON'T THROW IT, Good Throw!"

Edited October 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

Or as Hyde was caught on mic'd up saying of a similar throw to Gabe Davis: "Don't throw it, Don't Throw It, DON'T THROW IT, Good Throw!"

 

hehehe, I didn't see that one.

Although, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lot of that going on right down the sideline. 

[LABILLBACKER]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

He was looking at Murrary to try and move Okereke with his eyes towards the flat to open the window for Knox. Honestly on that play I tip my cap to Okereke for just making a great play. Josh hits that throw 9 times out of 10. Okereke obviously studied the film so he knew exactly where to drop and timed his jump just right. The Giants back 7 players in general played very disciplined football. They didn't take any of our bait. They stayed right in the middle of their conflict areas when the play called for it.

 

We are going to have to live with INTs since we have an elite QB. Every year the league leaders in INTs are mostly the best QBs. If you want the TD throw to Morris, you have to live with him trying to fit a ball into a tight window that ends up tipped and picked. You don't get one without the other.

And meanwhile our OC didn't bother countering that by throwing to the boundaries. 

[HIT BY SPIKES]

Great work here as usual.

 

Thank you for your efforts on our behalf.

[Scott7975]

8 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

Sounds like injury or examination for injury.  Played 95% of the snaps so apparently came back in after being examined.

 

 

Or as Hyde was caught on mic'd up saying of a similar throw to Gabe Davis: "Don't throw it, Don't Throw It, DON'T THROW IT, Good Throw!"

imo penalties should not offset when there are more penalties on one team than the other. At least not in a fight situation because they are always going to flag both teams. 

[CSBill]

Any notes or observations on Ryan Van Demark?

[4merper4mer]

11 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I absolutely despised that throw on 2nd and short before it had even completely left his hand.

I was in the process of mf'ing poor Josh when Morris caught it for a score.  

 

 

 

It wasn’t all that different than the OT int against Minny last year.

[colin]

14 hours ago, Mango said:

 

Thank you for this. Always appreciated. I just watched the A-22 today and have some scribbles I was going to post on the PG Thread and never got around to. I think your summary is pretty accurate. 

 

The Dawkins play in Q2 feels like a good synopsis for our entire passing game on Sunday. Dawkins gets beat, so lets get that out of the way. There is no debating that. But to me today it looks like Dawkins is committed to leverage Thibodeaux up and around Allen. But Allen takes a big step up, and Thibodeaux easily disengages. Dawkins certainly gets beat there, but part of the problem is the LT and QB don't have a good feel for what the other is going to do either. 

 

I thought the first two drives had some "unfortunate moments" but those moments started to pile on around the 3rd or 4th drives. Just mental gaffes everywhere.  I think they started to pile on top of each other right around the 3rd or 4th drive. If it wasn't Josh it was a lineman. If it wasn't a lineman it was a WR. Even Diggs got in on it with that crazy unfocused Offside. Then a play or two later went to him on a screen, where he had another blocker engaged outside of Shakir(?) and he cut inside right and go nothing on it. 

Worth noting that Josh was better in the second half but we only had three possessions compared to 6 in the first.

 

I really think these guys thought they were gonna go off and have a crazy Madden on rookie type of performance, and when it wasn't happening started gripping way too tight, got super sloppy, and started playing as individuals rather than a unit. These types of games drive me nuts. 

 

a three possession second half is crazy.  missing long field goals has a much more negative impact than i think it is thought too, especially for us.

[Bocephuz]

15 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

I disagree.  We can't keep saying that we just played a dominant line every week.  Been doing that since week 1.  Also, it's mostly Brown that has been a problem with this line.  He gets smoked too often because he is slow.  Too slow for speed rushers. The only time he did a decent job is when we take out TE's out of being available for passing routes to help chip the defender into position... again because Brown is too slow to get there on his own.  It's problem is two fold because he aint good enough and because it takes away passing targets to supplement that.

 

The O Line is markedly improved this year ( the exception being RT) . Unfortunately a unit can really be brought down by the weakest link.

 

Dawkins has his ups and downs.. but he is still capable and generally reliable 

 

McGovern has been rock solid ( except for Giants game)

 

Morse is playing at All Pro level 

 

Torrence looks like a 5 year Vet

 

Brown is a glaring liability who consistently sabotages the good work of the other 4

 

[Utah John]

23 hours ago, Bocephuz said:

In the past i used to do lengthy in depth posts with gifs.. don't have time for that nowadays

 

I watched every passing snap to evaluate pass blocking performance as well as Josh Allen unforced errors committed (PASS BLOCKING ONLY EVALUATED.. did not evaluate running plays). 

 

UNFORCED ERROR  =  Allen has time to throw, wr is open and he misses throw.. or.. Allen makes poor unforced decision 

 

OLINEMAN BEATEN =  O lineman clearly loses his one on one matchup... or.. clearly misreads stunt/combo block

 

____

 

OLINEMAN BEATEN STATS

DAWKINS - 2

MCGOVERN - 3

MORSE - 1

TORRENCE - 1

BROWN - 4

 

 

-DAWKINS - Dion mainly held up in pass pro.. however one of the pressures he surrendered indirectly led to Allen getting hit and hurting his shoulder

- MCGOVERN - This is the first week McGovern clearly struggled. He misread a stunt and was beaten cleanly by #93 several times. 

- MORSE - Not a clean sheet.. he misread a late developing stunt in q4.. but other than that another fine day for Mitch. 

- TORRENCE - Yet another solid performance. Only surrendered 1 pressure to my eye. 

- BROWN  - Brown showed a glimmer of hope last week.. but that glimmer was snuffed out against the Giants. He regressed back to the mean .. surrendering 4 pressures against the G Men and commiting a bad false start penalty

- DORSEY -  To my eye Dorseyused TEs to chip twice and actually used Gabe Davis on a wham block once. It appeared the strategy this week was to get the TEs out in patterns for quick blitz beater throws rather than keep them in to chip. 

 

OL SUMMARY :  The Giants were able to beat the Bills O line in multiple ways. Both #93 and #5 were able to win one on one against their Bills O LIne counterparts.  DC Martindale blitzed frequently.. and was particularly successful sending delayed stunt blitzes. Dawkins, McGovern and Morse were all caught off guard by delayed twist stunts where the DE or OLB hid out and then snuck in to pressure qb up the gap in the middle. #58 for Giants was a spy on Allen and was very effective .. had a pass tip and also a hit on Allen. Not the best day for the OLine but Martindale really did throw the kitchen sink at them. 

 

QB UNFORCED ERRORS:  Josh had 4 unforced errors by my count.  Based on my history of doing this kind of analysis when a qb has 5 or more unforced errors the chances of his team winning decrease materially.  

 

SIGNIFICANT PLAYS - 

 

q1 - UE1 - Josh throws out route too early before Diggs starts his break..Diggs turns around but ball is already on him and its incomplete

 

q1 - UE2 - Josh overthrows Davis on a deep crosser. 

 

q1 -UE 3 - Josh has time .. has Shakir open to his right but locks on Diggs too long (who isn't open). Pocket collapses and 17 throws dirt ball to Diggs general direction. 

 

q1 - Brown beaten by speed rush of #99

 

q1 - McGovern and Dawkins do not recognize twist stunt .. pocket collapses resulting in incompletion

 

q1 -  UE4- Allen bails clean pocket early and drifts to the right.. incomplete

 

q2 -Brown beaten by speed rush of #5.. forcing incompletion

 

q2 - McGovern beaten by 97.. flushes Allen and Allen takes a hit

 

q2 - Brown false start

 

q2: Dawkins beat to the inside by #5 flushing Allen to his right.. end result Allen is hit hard and hurts his shoulder

 

q2: Gabe Davis stays in to wham block 

 

q2 - INT - 97 beats Torrence cleanly altering Allen's throw .. which is intercepted. 

 

q3 - Brown beaten again speed rush #5... flushes Allen but Allen gets small gain scrambling. 

 

q3 - Morse misses delayed twist stunt giving up pressure on Allen

 

q3 - Cook whiffs on pass block against LB 41.. Allen miracuously escapes and makes completion to Diggs

 

q4- McGovern beaten by #93

 

 

 

 

SUMMARY  -  Allen had a poor first half.. in particular .. a poor first few series. In my opinion he was a little to anxious to show he could get the ball out on time knowing Daboll was on the other sideline ..causing a few poor uncharacteristic unforced errors on his part. The first UE to Diggs was Allen being impatient and getting ball out to early before Diggs was in his break. He also overthrew an open Davis onthe next throw ( even though Davis tripped.. ball was still too high). Allen settled down in the second half and succeeded in spite of his O Line. In general.. Allen had a few reps where he bailed out of clean pockets early.. but for the most part he got the ball out quickly to counter the blitzing. . Brown regressed back to his old self.. being consistently beat on speed outside rushes and throwing in a false start for good measure. McGovern had a tough game as well. Cook had a very strong start to the year with good blitz pickups.. but he has now had several weeks in a row where he's whiffed on pass protect blocks. I expect to see more of Murray on pass downs if the trend continues. At the end of the day #17 successfully improvised on a few big plays ( TD to Morris.. first down to Diggs after miracle escape) to pull it out. 

I counted 12 error plays in the first half, three in the third quarter, and only one in the fourth.  The Bills were shut out in the first three quarters, scored at the beginning of the fourth, and then again later in the fourth.  I'm guessing there's both correlation AND causation going on here.