Anyone at the game, or with access to all 22 replay..Is anyone getting open??

[Rich Stadium Original]

 Much has been made of the numbers of targets for Diggs in the Giants game. On the broadcast, looked like they were playing a mostly cover 2/ 2 deep look with man underneath.

 Diggs mentioned after the game he had never been double teamed more in his career. With Kincaid out, the Bills played as much 11 personnel as I had seen all year.

Which begs the question...were any of the Bills receivers able to beat their man one on one besides Diggs?

 In some of the wide angle replay shots I saw, (which were few) there was little to no separation from Bills receivers and the DBs.

  So...is this a function of target fixation by Allen? Allen afraid to routinely throw into a tight window, or "throw somebody open" for fear of an interception? A bad scheme, with a terrible route tree / play call based on what they are facing on defense? Or a lack of talent on your receivers just not getting open?

Edited October 17, 2023 by Rich Stadium Original

[Rich Stadium Original]

...totle should be all 22....fingers big, keyboard small...

[SectionC3]

From the game, some extra protection with Edwards, Allen seemed to have to navigate the pocket more than usual, and Knox has gotta make that catch.  Somewhat reminiscent of last years offense. 

[Chandler#81]

How many threads do we need on this moot point?🙄

[HoofHearted]

Pass 1 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read.

Pass 2 - Went 12 personnel. Giants played 3 to it - Corners playing MOD - Allen picked his matchup and threw to Diggs.

Pass 3 - Ran Deep Crossers vs Man Coverage - they tried to Double Stef - throw to Gabe - it was open but he tripped. Diggs and Knox also open.

Pass 4 - Ran a Dragon concept vs Cover 2 - hit Diggs on the Glance - he was the first read. Had Cook open to the flat and probably would have had Morris open on the Corner route to the field as the corner drove the stop underneath.

Pass 5 - Went empty and hit Gabe on a stop to the boundary flat. Hitch Seam Concept vs. Cover 3.

Pass 6 - PAP designed for Sherfield on a deep over - cut his route too shallow and should have drifted sooner. He was wide open. Diggs also got open on the comeback to the field. Curious if Josh got confused here - Defense should 3 pre-snap and rolled 2. Even with the shallower path by Sherfield Josh can and has made that throw before. Additionally if he just stops and throws it back across the formation he has Cook wide open in the flat with a lead blocker in Edwards backside with a Corner as the only defender close to it and he was 15 yards away.

Pass 7 -PAP Snag 7 concept - reading the overhang defender - he sank with Diggs so Josh threw the arrow to Gabe - Gabe fumbled. Had Knox as an outlet backside.

Pass 8 - PAP Deep Cross concept vs. Cover 3 which turns into man for the corners because of the offensive formation. Hit Diggs - Harty got hemmed up with the corner otherwise he could have blown the top off that thing because MoF Safety played Cheat to Diggs. Also had Murray as an outlet on the play.

Pass 9 - PAP. This is the mesh concept with the vertical by Gabe that everyone is talking about. Allen sees single high coverage pre-snap. Safety did a good job hanging on the hash as long as possible to muddy Allens read - wanted to hit Gabe which is why he waited so long because he wanted the Safety to declare. Once Safety declared and he saw Cover 2 he immediately looked for Diggs and let it rip even though he had a wide open Shakir on the opposite side.

Pass 10 - HBO Concept vs Quarters - took the quick throw to Diggs before anything else really had an opportunity to develop. Would have had Knox to the middle of the field and Gabe on a deep curl if he wanted it.

Pass 11 - Ran the same Snag 7 concept to the field against Cover 6. Looked Diggs on a slant backside first - wasn't there and had to scramble to his left. Had Knox open to the flat on a whip route with the defense dropping to the sticks on third and long. If he had looked trips side first as he should have he'd probably have hit Gabe on the Curl for a first down.

Pass 12 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read and it should have been handed off. There was no play there with the defense playing 1.

Pass 13 - Mesh vs Cover 3 - Cover 1 made a comment about Allen potentially thinking it was 1, but every defender is playing with zone eyes so I'd highly doubt it. Had Cook and should have thrown to Cook. Instead got pressured and threw it in the dirt to Diggs. With a clean pocket he also had Gabe on the backside deep out vs the sinking corner.

Pass 14 - Basically ran a one man concept here on 3rd and forever. Defense played Cover 3 - Sherfield ran the collector to pull the MoF Safety and Diggs ran an out and up vs a Trap 3 look. They got exactly the look they wanted - Diggs beat his guy but pressure forced Josh out of the pocket and the play wasn't really designed to go anywhere else. He forced a throw off-balance and underthrew it.

Pass 15 - PAP. Another two man route concept here. Diggs on the Glance and Sherfield on the Deep Out to the field vs. Cover 3. Curious about the condensed split by Diggs here, but the backers didn't bite and there was no window. Allen should have thrown the Out to the field.

Pass 16 - Flood concept vs. Cover 1 Rat. Looked like Josh got confused by the double on Diggs initially - checked the MoF Safety to ensure it was 1, but then pocket broke down. Diggs worked scramble drill and got himself open. Allen overthrew it.

Pass 17 - Went Empty and ran two verts backside to Cover 3 which was disguised as 0. Josh was definitely thrown off by the disguise. By the time he recognized 1 high the pocket had broken down and he threw it away to the field. Looked like Murray also ran the wrong route on the play otherwise Shakir would have been open to the flat.

Pass 18 - Ran Curl Arrow to the field vs Quarters and Hitch Seam to the boundary vs. 2. Looked Diggs first - had Harty on the Curl behind it wide open, but never saw it. Pocket broke down and he ended up throwing it away on scramble drill.

Pass 19 - PAP - Mirrored Deep Curls vs Cover 3 - open on both sides - threw to Diggs.

Pass 20 - Had a Post/Dig concept working the middle of the field vs Cover 6 - threw to Knox and it got picked. The frustrating part is if he holds a second later the Safety is driving the Dig and Knox would have had a walk-in touchdown on the Post. Murray also open as the outlet.

 

That's every pass from the first half of the game. Guys were definitely getting open. There's definitely a lot being schemed for Diggs, but there's also a fair amount being schemed for other guys as well. Allen finds Diggs immediately whenever anything breaks down which is understandable. Also rushed some stuff which is understandable given the consistent pressure he saw. As a side note Dorsey's play calling was impressive. Every route concept outside of the Flood vs Cover 1 was had an answer to take advantage of the coverage they saw from the defense.

[Big Turk]

I think you want all-22...or are you assuming 1 side of the ball was short a player on every play?

[ngbills]

Just pay the extra $ and get the all 22. Saving a few bucks is not worth missing out on the full footage.

[HoofHearted]

45 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Pass 1 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read.

Pass 2 - Went 12 personnel. Giants played 3 to it - Corners playing MOD - Allen picked his matchup and threw to Diggs.

Pass 3 - Ran Deep Crossers vs Man Coverage - they tried to Double Stef - throw to Gabe - it was open but he tripped. Diggs and Knox also open.

Pass 4 - Ran a Dragon concept vs Cover 2 - hit Diggs on the Glance - he was the first read. Had Cook open to the flat and probably would have had Morris open on the Corner route to the field as the corner drove the stop underneath.

Pass 5 - Went empty and hit Gabe on a stop to the boundary flat. Hitch Seam Concept vs. Cover 3.

Pass 6 - PAP designed for Sherfield on a deep over - cut his route too shallow and should have drifted sooner. He was wide open. Diggs also got open on the comeback to the field. Curious if Josh got confused here - Defense should 3 pre-snap and rolled 2. Even with the shallower path by Sherfield Josh can and has made that throw before. Additionally if he just stops and throws it back across the formation he has Cook wide open in the flat with a lead blocker in Edwards backside with a Corner as the only defender close to it and he was 15 yards away.

Pass 7 -PAP Snag 7 concept - reading the overhang defender - he sank with Diggs so Josh threw the arrow to Gabe - Gabe fumbled. Had Knox as an outlet backside.

Pass 8 - PAP Deep Cross concept vs. Cover 3 which turns into man for the corners because of the offensive formation. Hit Diggs - Harty got hemmed up with the corner otherwise he could have blown the top off that thing because MoF Safety played Cheat to Diggs. Also had Murray as an outlet on the play.

Pass 9 - PAP. This is the mesh concept with the vertical by Gabe that everyone is talking about. Allen sees single high coverage pre-snap. Safety did a good job hanging on the hash as long as possible to muddy Allens read - wanted to hit Gabe which is why he waited so long because he wanted the Safety to declare. Once Safety declared and he saw Cover 2 he immediately looked for Diggs and let it rip even though he had a wide open Shakir on the opposite side.

Pass 10 - HBO Concept vs Quarters - took the quick throw to Diggs before anything else really had an opportunity to develop. Would have had Knox to the middle of the field and Gabe on a deep curl if he wanted it.

Pass 11 - Ran the same Snag 7 concept to the field against Cover 6. Looked Diggs on a slant backside first - wasn't there and had to scramble to his left. Had Knox open to the flat on a whip route with the defense dropping to the sticks on third and long. If he had looked trips side first as he should have he'd probably have hit Gabe on the Curl for a first down.

Pass 12 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read and it should have been handed off. There was no play there with the defense playing 1.

Pass 13 - Mesh vs Cover 3 - Cover 1 made a comment about Allen potentially thinking it was 1, but every defender is playing with zone eyes so I'd highly doubt it. Had Cook and should have thrown to Cook. Instead got pressured and threw it in the dirt to Diggs. With a clean pocket he also had Gabe on the backside deep out vs the sinking corner.

Pass 14 - Basically ran a one man concept here on 3rd and forever. Defense played Cover 3 - Sherfield ran the collector to pull the MoF Safety and Diggs ran an out and up vs a Trap 3 look. They got exactly the look they wanted - Diggs beat his guy but pressure forced Josh out of the pocket and the play wasn't really designed to go anywhere else. He forced a throw off-balance and underthrew it.

Pass 15 - PAP. Another two man route concept here. Diggs on the Glance and Sherfield on the Deep Out to the field vs. Cover 3. Curious about the condensed split by Diggs here, but the backers didn't bite and there was no window. Allen should have thrown the Out to the field.

Pass 16 - Flood concept vs. Cover 1 Rat. Looked like Josh got confused by the double on Diggs initially - checked the MoF Safety to ensure it was 1, but then pocket broke down. Diggs worked scramble drill and got himself open. Allen overthrew it.

Pass 17 - Went Empty and ran two verts backside to Cover 3 which was disguised as 0. Josh was definitely thrown off by the disguise. By the time he recognized 1 high the pocket had broken down and he threw it away to the field. Looked like Murray also ran the wrong route on the play otherwise Shakir would have been open to the flat.

Pass 18 - Ran Curl Arrow to the field vs Quarters and Hitch Seam to the boundary vs. 2. Looked Diggs first - had Harty on the Curl behind it wide open, but never saw it. Pocket broke down and he ended up throwing it away on scramble drill.

Pass 19 - PAP - Mirrored Deep Curls vs Cover 3 - open on both sides - threw to Diggs.

Pass 20 - Had a Post/Dig concept working the middle of the field vs Cover 6 - threw to Knox and it got picked. The frustrating part is if he holds a second later the Safety is driving the Dig and Knox would have had a walk-in touchdown on the Post. Murray also open as the outlet.

 

That's every pass from the first half of the game. Guys were definitely getting open. There's definitely a lot being schemed for Diggs, but there's also a fair amount being schemed for other guys as well. Allen finds Diggs immediately whenever anything breaks down which is understandable. Also rushed some stuff which is understandable given the consistent pressure he saw. As a side note Dorsey's play calling was impressive. Every route concept outside of the Flood vs Cover 1 was had an answer to take advantage of the coverage they saw from the defense.

Why the eyeroll @Chandler#81?

[Low Positive]

9 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Why the eyeroll @Chandler#81?

Because of your sidenote. This board wants Ken Dorsey fired yesterday because all fans blame coaches when things don't go well. I really think that the coaching job that Wink Martindale did in the first half was a masterclass, especially given what he had to work with. Josh never seemed to know where the rush was coming from. But I also believe that Daboll and Martindale started working on this game plan in the offseason. It was personal for Daboll.

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

Pass 1 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read.

Pass 2 - Went 12 personnel. Giants played 3 to it - Corners playing MOD - Allen picked his matchup and threw to Diggs.

Pass 3 - Ran Deep Crossers vs Man Coverage - they tried to Double Stef - throw to Gabe - it was open but he tripped. Diggs and Knox also open.

Pass 4 - Ran a Dragon concept vs Cover 2 - hit Diggs on the Glance - he was the first read. Had Cook open to the flat and probably would have had Morris open on the Corner route to the field as the corner drove the stop underneath.

Pass 5 - Went empty and hit Gabe on a stop to the boundary flat. Hitch Seam Concept vs. Cover 3.

Pass 6 - PAP designed for Sherfield on a deep over - cut his route too shallow and should have drifted sooner. He was wide open. Diggs also got open on the comeback to the field. Curious if Josh got confused here - Defense should 3 pre-snap and rolled 2. Even with the shallower path by Sherfield Josh can and has made that throw before. Additionally if he just stops and throws it back across the formation he has Cook wide open in the flat with a lead blocker in Edwards backside with a Corner as the only defender close to it and he was 15 yards away.

Pass 7 -PAP Snag 7 concept - reading the overhang defender - he sank with Diggs so Josh threw the arrow to Gabe - Gabe fumbled. Had Knox as an outlet backside.

Pass 8 - PAP Deep Cross concept vs. Cover 3 which turns into man for the corners because of the offensive formation. Hit Diggs - Harty got hemmed up with the corner otherwise he could have blown the top off that thing because MoF Safety played Cheat to Diggs. Also had Murray as an outlet on the play.

Pass 9 - PAP. This is the mesh concept with the vertical by Gabe that everyone is talking about. Allen sees single high coverage pre-snap. Safety did a good job hanging on the hash as long as possible to muddy Allens read - wanted to hit Gabe which is why he waited so long because he wanted the Safety to declare. Once Safety declared and he saw Cover 2 he immediately looked for Diggs and let it rip even though he had a wide open Shakir on the opposite side.

Pass 10 - HBO Concept vs Quarters - took the quick throw to Diggs before anything else really had an opportunity to develop. Would have had Knox to the middle of the field and Gabe on a deep curl if he wanted it.

Pass 11 - Ran the same Snag 7 concept to the field against Cover 6. Looked Diggs on a slant backside first - wasn't there and had to scramble to his left. Had Knox open to the flat on a whip route with the defense dropping to the sticks on third and long. If he had looked trips side first as he should have he'd probably have hit Gabe on the Curl for a first down.

Pass 12 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read and it should have been handed off. There was no play there with the defense playing 1.

Pass 13 - Mesh vs Cover 3 - Cover 1 made a comment about Allen potentially thinking it was 1, but every defender is playing with zone eyes so I'd highly doubt it. Had Cook and should have thrown to Cook. Instead got pressured and threw it in the dirt to Diggs. With a clean pocket he also had Gabe on the backside deep out vs the sinking corner.

Pass 14 - Basically ran a one man concept here on 3rd and forever. Defense played Cover 3 - Sherfield ran the collector to pull the MoF Safety and Diggs ran an out and up vs a Trap 3 look. They got exactly the look they wanted - Diggs beat his guy but pressure forced Josh out of the pocket and the play wasn't really designed to go anywhere else. He forced a throw off-balance and underthrew it.

Pass 15 - PAP. Another two man route concept here. Diggs on the Glance and Sherfield on the Deep Out to the field vs. Cover 3. Curious about the condensed split by Diggs here, but the backers didn't bite and there was no window. Allen should have thrown the Out to the field.

Pass 16 - Flood concept vs. Cover 1 Rat. Looked like Josh got confused by the double on Diggs initially - checked the MoF Safety to ensure it was 1, but then pocket broke down. Diggs worked scramble drill and got himself open. Allen overthrew it.

Pass 17 - Went Empty and ran two verts backside to Cover 3 which was disguised as 0. Josh was definitely thrown off by the disguise. By the time he recognized 1 high the pocket had broken down and he threw it away to the field. Looked like Murray also ran the wrong route on the play otherwise Shakir would have been open to the flat.

Pass 18 - Ran Curl Arrow to the field vs Quarters and Hitch Seam to the boundary vs. 2. Looked Diggs first - had Harty on the Curl behind it wide open, but never saw it. Pocket broke down and he ended up throwing it away on scramble drill.

Pass 19 - PAP - Mirrored Deep Curls vs Cover 3 - open on both sides - threw to Diggs.

Pass 20 - Had a Post/Dig concept working the middle of the field vs Cover 6 - threw to Knox and it got picked. The frustrating part is if he holds a second later the Safety is driving the Dig and Knox would have had a walk-in touchdown on the Post. Murray also open as the outlet.

 

That's every pass from the first half of the game. Guys were definitely getting open. There's definitely a lot being schemed for Diggs, but there's also a fair amount being schemed for other guys as well. Allen finds Diggs immediately whenever anything breaks down which is understandable. Also rushed some stuff which is understandable given the consistent pressure he saw. As a side note Dorsey's play calling was impressive. Every route concept outside of the Flood vs Cover 1 was had an answer to take advantage of the coverage they saw from the defense.

 

He also had Shakir wide open on an out on the play I bolded that probably would have gotten at least 15 yards.  

 

My question from what I was watching was...is Allen having issues setting line protections against certain looks? Seemed very similar to Bengal playoff gameplan where multiple OLinemen were standing around blocking nobody while 2 guys got near immediate pressure several times.

 

And further, is Allen even setting protection calls or is Morse still handling that like he did when Josh first got here?

Edited October 17, 2023 by Big Turk

[Dr.Sack]

Diggs is our Kelce. He’s always open. 

[HoofHearted]

14 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

He also had Shakir wide open on an out on the play I bolded that probably would have gotten at least 15 yards.  

 

My question from what I was watching was...is Allen having issues setting line protections against certain looks? Seemed very similar to Bengal playoff gameplan where multiple OLinemen were standing around blocking nobody while 2 guys got near immediate pressure.

I didn't see any of this in the first half of the game.

[Franco_92]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

 

Pass 5 - Went empty and hit Gabe on a stop to the boundary flat. Hitch Seam Concept vs. Cover 3.

 

Is this also called "Hoss"?

[Old Coot]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

That's every pass from the first half of the game. Guys were definitely getting open. There's definitely a lot being schemed for Diggs, but there's also a fair amount being schemed for other guys as well. Allen finds Diggs immediately whenever anything breaks down which is understandable. Also rushed some stuff which is understandable given the consistent pressure he saw. As a side note Dorsey's play calling was impressive. Every route concept outside of the Flood vs Cover 1 was had an answer to take advantage of the coverage they saw from the defense.

Excellent analysis of the first half passing offense. It looks like the problem is more with execution than play design. The OL does not give Josh enough time

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, Franco_92 said:

Is this also called "Hoss"?

It's what the Patriots call it. There's a thousand different terms for route concepts. That's why it's so hard for casual fans to learn the game. There's no common language.

Edited October 17, 2023 by HoofHearted

[bill8164]

2 minutes ago, Old Coot said:

Excellent analysis of the first half passing offense. It looks like the problem is more with execution than play design. The OL does not give Josh enough time

Not true in the slightest, Josh was given the most amount of time on pass protection in this game (approximately 3.10 seconds) according to Joe Marino. Josh had a bad game, it happens.

[Franco_92]

3 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

It's what the Patriots call it. There's a thousand different terms for route concepts. That's why it's so hard for casual fans to learn the game. There's no common language.

I'm doing my best despite that! Thanks for taking the time to do this stuff, it's helping me a lot and I actually found myself picturing/understanding/remembering the plays from your descriptions alone

[TheyCallMeAndy]

5 hours ago, Rich Stadium Original said:

 Much has been made of the numbers of targets for Diggs in the Giants game. On the broadcast, looked like they were playing a mostly cover 2/ 2 deep look with man underneath.

 Diggs mentioned after the game he had never been double teamed more in his career. With Kincaid out, the Bills played as much 11 personnel as I had seen all year.

Which begs the question...were any of the Bills receivers able to beat their man one on one besides Diggs?

 In some of the wide angle replay shots I saw, (which were few) there was little to no separation from Bills receivers and the DBs.

  So...is this a function of target fixation by Allen? Allen afraid to routinely throw into a tight window, or "throw somebody open" for fear of an interception? A bad scheme, with a terrible route tree / play call based on what they are facing on defense? Or a lack of talent on your receivers just not getting open?

Joe Marino touched it a little bit that after the fumble Davis disappeared.

 

Knox is injured and I believe helped block/chip quite a bit. 
 

I don’t think 11 and 16 played much. I’m shocked they didn’t look to Cook more. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, FrenchConnection said:

Because of your sidenote. This board wants Ken Dorsey fired yesterday because all fans blame coaches when things don't go well. I really think that the coaching job that Wink Martindale did in the first half was a masterclass, especially given what he had to work with. Josh never seemed to know where the rush was coming from. But I also believe that Daboll and Martindale started working on this game plan in the offseason. It was personal for Daboll.

Teams that are declared ‘bad’ are never allowed to improve week to week and never allowed any amount of credit lol that has had me miffed the last couple days.  
 

I keep reading ‘played down to their opponent’ but the giants defense was pretty close to flawless.  Who even knew what those guys were capable of…they’re always on the field all game defending short fields because the Daniel jones led offense was absolutely atrocious 

 

Now people will say ‘oh the giants provided the blueprint and they’re not good so other teams will be able to replicate it’ which isn’t true either because disguising coverages like that without having any big blown coverages takes a tremendous amount of communication 

17 minutes ago, bill8164 said:

Not true in the slightest, Josh was given the most amount of time on pass protection in this game (approximately 3.10 seconds) according to Joe Marino. Josh had a bad game, it happens.

In this game compared to other bills games this year?  I think that is entirely misleading as game plans vary week to week based on what the defense is doing.  And how is ‘given the most amount of time’ calculated…tons of that time he bought himself in collapsing pockets.  The whole second half the pressure was pretty much instant.

 

not trying to argue for or against you saying josh had a bad game as there’s nuance involved and people can have their own personal opinions, but the oline objectively got steamrolled in this one

Edited October 17, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[billsfan89]

I really hope they get Shakir more involved in the offense. He only has 4 receptions on the year but they all were key receptions that either were a TD or kept a drive going. I think they should open him up to 3-4 targets a game for the next 3 weeks and see how he handles it. I think he may be the best hope in getting more production from WR’s there aren’t Diggs. 
 

Finding a way to get Shakir and Kincaid more consistently involved is the best way the Bills can support Diggs in the passing game.