Unleash Josh Allen...stop trying to change him

[Scott7975]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think the Dolphins game was a case of an old behind the times DC calling the kind of soft zone defense that we have all come to hate. Against that kind of zone defense our offense thrives, no doubt. Our pass catchers can't separate in man coverage but they can find holes in zone and we have a lot of zone beater plays we run at a very high level.

 

What's happened the past two weeks is the Jags and Giants coaching staffs realized if you double Diggs and dare everybody behind him to separate in man coverage, you will mostly be able to stop us. Dorsey to my eyes hasn't called a lot of great man beating concepts the past two weeks. We aren't putting defenders in conflict or muddying up their coverage rules, we're just sending guys out on basic routes and asking them to win their 1v1s. Obviously with this group of mediocre pass catchers that isn't going to get it done.

 

We'll soon have games against top tier DCs like Lou Anarumo and Steve Spagnuolo. I know what they're going to do - double Diggs, cover everyone else in man, call exotic blitzes and simulated pressures which have been proven to confuse our OL. The exact same gameplan teams used against us last year. A full season later and we still haven't found a personnel or schematic answer.

 

We use to be able to beat man coverage too but that was in the days when we had prime Brown and prime Beasley.  We don't have those quick separation guys anymore.  What we have is guys that separate by busted coverage and extended off script plays.

[Old Coot]

3 hours ago, zow2 said:

Some internet doctors think Josh got an AC joint sprain on the play last night

I think he has a right shoulder injury. On the sack he lands on his right shoulder and grabs it. When he gets up he's favoring that shoulder.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

16 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think the Dolphins game was a case of an old behind the times DC calling the kind of soft zone defense that we have all come to hate. Against that kind of zone defense our offense thrives, no doubt. Our pass catchers can't separate in man coverage but they can find holes in zone and we have a lot of zone beater plays we run at a very high level.

 

What's happened the past two weeks is the Jags and Giants coaching staffs realized if you double Diggs and dare everybody behind him to separate in man coverage, you will mostly be able to stop us. Dorsey to my eyes hasn't called a lot of great man beating concepts the past two weeks. We aren't putting defenders in conflict or muddying up their coverage rules, we're just sending guys out on basic routes and asking them to win their 1v1s. Obviously with this group of mediocre pass catchers that isn't going to get it done.

 

We'll soon have games against top tier DCs like Lou Anarumo and Steve Spagnuolo. I know what they're going to do - double Diggs, cover everyone else in man, call exotic blitzes and simulated pressures which have been proven to confuse our OL. The exact same gameplan teams used against us last year. A full season later and we still haven't found a personnel or schematic answer.

largely agreed....but who is better than us overall talent wise?

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Others are getting separation.  An example at 00;38 in this clip, on a 3rd and 6, Josh is locked on Diggs, who is right at the 1st down marker in tight double coverage and he completes a high risk pass.  Yet all alone, beyond the 1st down marker, heading toward the sideline just beyond Diggs is Davis.   A much easier 1st down lob.

 

https://www.nfl.com/videos/stefon-diggs-best-catches-from-100-yard-game-vs-giants-week-6

 

Then there are several short quick passes to Diggs.   Josh was locked in only Diggs only most of the night.

 

Could it be that Josh has the utmost confidence that Diggs WILL make the play for him? Not be a drive killer. That's what I'm starting to wonder. Kinda like Mahomes and Kelce

[BullBuchanan]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

The most disturbing thing I heard during the game last night was the commentators talk about how Josh talked about how he doesn't make those crazy plays anymore and stuff.  Basically talking about taming down his game.  There has been so much made about his "turnovers" after the Jets game that now Josh is holding back when it comes to the things that makes Josh special.  

 

Josh doesn't just make a wow OMG insane play once in a while, he makes them many times a game be it with his arm or his legs.  But ever since the Jets game where he made a few mistakes, there is this HUGE push to tame Josh and its not just the media, Josh is saying it himself.  But the reality is, those "turnovers" have NOT been the issue for us...Josh being super man has NOT been the issue for us as to WHY we haven't made a Super Bowl yet.  In fact, they have been the ONLY reason we were even in the conversation for one.  

 

2021 - the first season where SB expectations were realistic and high coming off Josh's first breakout year he was INSANE in the playoffs.  Our defense got us bounced when he out dueled Mahomes but the limp defense folded in both 13 seconds and OT.  

 

2022 - the loss to Bengals was a team loss.  Being an air it out offense, we have been known to struggle in the bad weather games offensively because we couldn't run the ball.  The OL was terrible, Bengals dominated the trenches on both sides of the ball, and everyone had a bad game.  We didn't lose because of Josh "trying to be Superman"...this team just got its a** kicked in every facet of the game.  

 

So why are we trying to tame Josh?  Many times a game we extend drives or score because Josh did something unbelievable.  I am all for getting Josh to take what the defense gives him, look for quick strikes, etc.  But at the same time, this narrative that he needs to be tamed some is IMHO wrong.  He just isn't looking to make the big plays with his legs as much now or make those tougher throws as much.  There have now been many times this year, including games we lost, there were moments it looked like he could have run and made the big play with his legs but pulled up and tried to throw it instead or waited so long to try and throw it that the run opportunity closed and he got just a few yards instead.  

 

Not only is it affecting him making plays with his legs, but the hesitation from Josh trying to hold his instincts back seems to also keep him from seeing other opportunities now he normally would take.  Before, when Josh was buying time I feel like everything was an option.  Now, when he gets away from pressure it feels like he is locking on to an area where the safest throw should be and doesn't see guys wide open in other areas of the field he would normally fire a ball too in those moments.  

 

Coming into 2023, Mahomes only had 4 less INTs and Burrow only had 3 less INTs over the past 2 seasons.  And Mahomes has had more weapons in that time and a much better OL while Burrow has had substantially better weapons...not to mention Josh played half a season with a hurt throwing elbow and plays in worse weather.  But he doesn't really have that many more INTs than those guys despite the personnel advantages they have over Josh.  

 

So this need to try and tame Josh needs to go away IMHO, let him ball like his instincts know because we win A LOT more games than we lose because of it.  And its that Josh that this team needs, especially with the issues we already have with Dorsey.  

 

Just my 2 cents...

 

It's a balance. Hollywood Josh will never win a thing in this league without a miracle of circumstances where the best teams and the best QBs get bounced in big upsets or due to injury. Patrick Mahomes didn't become the best QB in the league until he stopped playing hero ball all game. Tom Brady became the best QB in NFL history 5 yards at a time.

Josh and the coaching staff have overcorrected on reigning in the Hollywood, but they can win this way, and the hope is if they let just enough out, they can win a lot. Dorsey and McDermott might not be the right guys to do this, but this is most definitely the best chance Josh ever has of getting a Super Bowl and/or an MVP. Boring football is championship football.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Why can't we let Josh be Josh ?

[Joe Ferguson forever]

Just now, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Why can't we let Josh be Josh ?

full body casts aren't good for throwing...

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Could it be that Josh has the utmost confidence that Diggs WILL make the play for him? Not be a drive killer. That's what I'm starting to wonder. Kinda like Mahomes and Kelce

well that and the fact that it's not an accurate representation of that play lol

 

Allen feels protection breaking down and starts sliding into the throwing lane

 

when he lets the ball go Diggs is making himself a target and showing him his numbers at the marker like you're supposed to

 

Davis hasn't even turned his head yet and instead ducked behind the DB, he's just not an option there

 

the beauty of Diggs and Allen chemistry is understanding what's going on wrt pass pro, down/distance, and a whole range of little things that engender that kind of trust as a target...Allen rightly doesn't have that level w any of the other guys

[julian]

It’s obvious at this point he’s being coached to not take off and it’s showing. Everything is more constricted and difficult on offense when Allen isn’t making teams pay with his legs.

[Alphadawg7]

48 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They’ve never had the number 1 offense. Dorsey finished with the #2 offense in 2022, they improved from the previous season. Doesn’t really matter. Top 2, top 3, top 5. Who cares, all good offenses.

 

Yes, you need good players and especially good QBs to have consistently good offenses.

 

Dorsey is likely a product of Josh Allen. He didn’t build this offense. I think many OCs would have success with Josh Allen. The same type of success Dorsey is having.

 

I don’t know what you could possibly expect from another OC. This is a production based business. The production is there. You’d hold the next guy to unrealistic expectations, basically the same as Dorsey.

 

If production falls to let’s say out of the top 10 overall offense then maybe there’s a discussion to be had about Dorsey.

 

No disrespect here....but this "offense is ranked 3rd" excuse for Dorsey makes no sense to me.  And to be clear, they were the highest scoring offense over the 2 year window before Dorsey, which were Allens first 2 seasons playing at an elite level.  

 

Point is, you are excusing Dorsey for any responsibility of the offensive struggles because of the "offensive ranking".   And that ranking has almost nothing to do with Dorsey, any OC off the street could come in and it would still be a top 5 offense because of Allen and Diggs.  

 

So this whole narrative that it is silly to be upset with the OC when the offense is ranked 3rd...which is that even true after this week...just makes no sense as an excuse to defend Dorsey as it has no context at all about Dorseys actual performance vs what an Allen led offense is going to always be able to do regardless.

 

For example...why did Dorsey on inches and goal call a run out of a shotgun formation that started on the 6 yard line?  Everyone else in the world sneaks that with Allen for a near certain TD there every time.  Or at least runs with the QB under center so the exchange happes closer to the LOS where the RB hits the hole with momentum and speed.  It was maybe the dumbest call I have seen since Dorsey got here, and unfortuantely he has a LOT of competition for his worst calls as he does them almost every week.

 

We went and drafted Cook to be a recieving RB out of the backfield...yet 0...literally 0 targets to the RB's yesterday.  We spent a ton of money on Knox...traded up for Kincaid...yet we got these guys avg 7 yards per catch because Dorsey cant get them involved down field.  We run an insane amount of "12 personnel" yet we are not using the TE's as weapons much.  

 

Josh Allen has been substantially more effective under center all year and yet every play is still Allen back in the shotgun.  He often gets away from running the ball until the pass game isn't working as oppossed to using the run game as more of our offense.  

 

What about the other personnel?  Shakir keeps making plays when called upon, but we are constantly running 12 personnel and taking Shakir off the field even though we aren't really using the 12 personnel at all to our advantage.  So why do it?  If we aren't throwing down field to our TE's at all, then get Shakir and Sherfield more snaps with Diggs and Davis.  

 

I could keep going...but the point is, Dorsey is not doing a lot of things well and its a problem IMHO.  This is 2 weeks in a row the offense had 7 points only halfway through the 4th quarter...against the Jags and Giants too who are not very good teams.  

Edited October 16, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[Buffalo_Stampede]

20 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect here....but this "offense is ranked 3rd" excuse for Dorsey makes no sense to me.  And to be clear, they were the highest scoring offense over the 2 year window before Dorsey, which were Allens first 2 seasons playing at an elite level.  

 

Point is, you are excusing Dorsey for any responsibility of the offensive struggles because of the "offensive ranking".   And that ranking has almost nothing to do with Dorsey, any OC off the street could come in and it would still be a top 5 offense because of Allen and Diggs.  

 

So this whole narrative that it is silly to be upset with the OC when the offense is ranked 3rd...which is that even true after this week...just makes no sense as an excuse to defend Dorsey as it has no context at all about Dorseys actual performance vs what an Allen led offense is going to always be able to do regardless.

 

For example...why did Dorsey on inches and goal call a run out of a shotgun formation that started on the 6 yard line?  Everyone else in the world sneaks that with Allen for a near certain TD there every time.  Or at least runs with the QB under center so the exchange happes closer to the LOS where the RB hits the hole with momentum and speed.  It was maybe the dumbest call I have seen since Dorsey got here, and unfortuantely he has a LOT of competition for his worst calls as he does them almost every week.

 

We went and drafted Cook to be a recieving RB out of the backfield...yet 0...literally 0 targets to the RB's yesterday.  We spent a ton of money on Knox...traded up for Kincaid...yet we got these guys avg 7 yards per catch because Dorsey cant get them involved down field.  We run an insane amount of "12 personnel" yet we are not using the TE's as weapons much.  

 

Josh Allen has been substantially more effective under center all year and yet every play is still Allen back in the shotgun.  He often gets away from running the ball until the pass game isn't working as oppossed to using the run game as more of our offense.  

 

What about the other personnel?  Shakir keeps making plays when called upon, but we are constantly running 12 personnel and taking Shakir off the field even though we aren't really using the 12 personnel at all to our advantage.  So why do it?  If we aren't throwing down field to our TE's at all, then get Shakir and Sherfield more snaps with Diggs and Davis.  

 

I could keep going...but the point is, Dorsey is not doing a lot of things well and its a problem IMHO.  This is 2 weeks in a row the offense had 7 points only halfway through the 4th quarter...against the Jags and Giants too who are not very good teams.  

You’re passionate about this but I can’t continue to argue with people complaining about the “offensive struggles”.

 

They aren’t a perfect offense. There’s many unsuccessful calls in a game. I’m sure there’s calls Dorsey would like back in every game. There’s bad games and bad stretches.

 

But I cant argue with people who get upset every time the offense struggles when they’re one of the most productive offenses in the NFL.

 

Like I said when the offense starts to become much less productive that’s when the Dorsey talk will start for me. There are no excuses. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[NickelCity]

I think Josh has been playing really well in this "calmer" phase, which sounds like it's not a super popular take. 

 

I think he could get some help by receivers not names diggs being able to get any sort of separation with regularity. 

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

You’re passionate about this but I can’t continue to argue with people complaining about the “offensive struggles”.

 

They aren’t a perfect offense. There’s many unsuccessful calls in a game. I’m sure there’s calls Dorsey would like back in every game. There’s bad games and bad stretches.

 

But I cant argue with people who get upset every time the offense struggles when there’re one of the most productive offenses in the NFL.

 

Like I said when the offense starts to become much less productive that’s when the Dorsey talk will start for me. There are no excuses. 

 

You mean the offense that was also one of the most productive...more productive actually...before Dorsey.  But because the offense is "still" productive Dorsey gets a pass and shouldn't be questioned, criticized or held accountable for anything?  Thats really your stance?  Wow.

 

The same offense that had 7 points midway through the 4th quarter the last 2 games?  And lets be honest, it should also be a 2 game losing streak because of the offense, but we got a gift last night...which I will take, but that doesn't make me feel better about the offense.  The same offense that also was grossly outcoached and  laid an egg in the playoffs.  The same offense that even Diggs said everything was just harder on offense last year.  The same offense where the redzone effieiency plummeted under Dorsey last year.  The same offense that had people saying Allen was regressing last year.

 

But because Allen is so good that the offense still produces you give Dorsey a pass.  Makes even less sense to me especially since our losses and near loss last night were all offensive related.  

 

All good though, no hard feeling either way.  We can agree to disagree, no problem.  Cheers 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You mean the offense that was also one of the most productive...more productive actually...before Dorsey.  But because the offense is "still" productive Dorsey gets a pass and shouldn't be questioned, criticized or held accountable for anything?  Thats really your stance?  Wow.

 

The same offense that had 7 points midway through the 4th quarter the last 2 games?  And lets be honest, it should also be a 2 game losing streak because of the offense, but we got a gift last night...which I will take, but that doesn't make me feel better about the offense.  The same offense that also was grossly outcoached and  laid an egg in the playoffs.  The same offense that even Diggs said everything was just harder on offense last year.  The same offense where the redzone effieiency plummeted under Dorsey last year.  The same offense that had people saying Allen was regressing last year.

 

But because Allen is so good that the offense still produces you give Dorsey a pass.  Makes even less sense to me especially since our losses and near loss last night were all offensive related.  

 

All good though, no hard feeling either way.  We can agree to disagree, no problem.  Cheers 

Criticism is always fair. I’m critical of Dorsey. I have high expectations for the offense because they have Josh Allen. 

Sounds like you’re critical of Dorsey because he has Josh Allen. I don’t know what else to say? 
 

You seem to be arguing that no matter who the OC is we’d have the same results so try someone else. What exactly are we expecting with someone else?
 

 

 

[JoshAllin]

His rushing yards through week 6 are definitely down compared to last year, and they had a 5-1 record looking like contenders. If they continue to limit Josh's abilities, and continue this route I feel the team could squeak in a wildcard at best which would be a huge disappointment. Also despite 0 yrds rushing yesterday he still managed to hurt his shoulder, shocking!

Edited October 17, 2023 by motorj

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

5 hours ago, Einstein said:

We need some WR's that can separate.

Look at this play - Diggs is double covered and not a single other receiving option can get seperation.

 

 

 

Diggs was actually the only one open on that play until getting held lol that’s exactly who the ball should’ve gone to and was probably a td…ball was put right where it needed to be.  The ball is not at all getting forced to diggs…the giants baited him into some throws where linebackers dropped underneath and josh didn’t see them though 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Chaos]

Bills need a head coach who is Allen's partner for the rest of Allen's career.  Whether it was/is Bill Walsh, Bill Belichek, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Marv Levy or Andy Reid, this is the best formula for sustained championship level play. The Bills have solved the hard part they have the QB.  Having a head coach who seems proud of not understanding offense (and certainly not responsible or accountable for it) seems to not be the optimal strategy.  A series of OC's who leave because they succeed, or leave because they fail, have one thing in common, they leave is not a substitute.  Its negligence for McDermott to be in his 6th season with Allen, and the team seems to be experimenting on how to use a world class QB.  A change in coaching is no guarantee of success.  The status quo shows no evidence it will ever succeed. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Chaos

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, 4BillsintheBurgh said:

Josh can get it to Quinton F'n Morris on what is clearly not a textbook route. He should be able to get it to just about anyone if they keep working to get free.

 

the OBD guys were watching film with Greg Cosell last year.  Morris ran a route and Cosell commented something to the effect that was an unusually polished route for a TE, who is that guy.

 

Just possibly, Morris should be getting a bit more airplay.

[zow2]

1 hour ago, Old Coot said:

I think he has a right shoulder injury. On the sack he lands on his right shoulder and grabs it. When he gets up he's favoring that shoulder.

 

Yeah, his immediate reaction was the same as how Richardson reacted on his injury. Now he’s in a sling and prob having surgery. Just a bit too close for comfort for Josh.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

52 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You mean the offense that was also one of the most productive...more productive actually...before Dorsey.  But because the offense is "still" productive Dorsey gets a pass and shouldn't be questioned, criticized or held accountable for anything?  Thats really your stance?  Wow.

 

The same offense that had 7 points midway through the 4th quarter the last 2 games?  And lets be honest, it should also be a 2 game losing streak because of the offense, but we got a gift last night...which I will take, but that doesn't make me feel better about the offense.  The same offense that also was grossly outcoached and  laid an egg in the playoffs.  The same offense that even Diggs said everything was just harder on offense last year.  The same offense where the redzone effieiency plummeted under Dorsey last year.  The same offense that had people saying Allen was regressing last year.

 

But because Allen is so good that the offense still produces you give Dorsey a pass.  Makes even less sense to me especially since our losses and near loss last night were all offensive related.  

 

All good though, no hard feeling either way.  We can agree to disagree, no problem.  Cheers 

Meh I wouldn’t say they got a gift…should’ve been pi late technically but the giants got away with a ton of holding all game long too.  I was honestly surprised they called the first pi to close out the game based on what the giants were getting away with.

 

davis got held on a probable td on the first drive…this pic everyone is using to illustrate we are apparently forcing the ball to diggs in double coverage diggs got held and that was a possible td also.  Guys grab jerseys all night long it was kind of surprising to see it called late.  Normally guys are only doing that late because they know they’ve been getting away with it.  

it’s tough to evaluate Dorsey… last year I think Josh’s elbow nuked the underneath passing game cuz his accuracy was shot and this year we’ve looked great when the offensive line holds up but those guys got absolutely steamrolled last night.  Even these highly acclaimed play callers like Andy Reid and Ben Johnson’s offenses look pretty terrible when their offensive line is getting whooped.   
 

idk that the jags loss/almost giants loss are ‘all offense related’.  It’s a little more nuanced than that. The defense couldn’t really get either teams offense off the field which really hurt field position and kept the opposing defenses fresh.  The giants defense has been completely hung out to dry by their offense all season so we really don’t even know what those guys are capable of.  Dexter Lawrence is a near Chris jones level beast.  Look at their 40-0 loss to the cowboys, the cowboys had less offensive yards than we did last night if you can believe that lol 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan