Unleash Josh Allen...stop trying to change him

[Herc11]

44 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Josh being Josh means keying and slinging it downfield into coverage or scrambling when shorter routes were open.  It's too predictable and quality defenses are using it against him, like the Jets. 

 

Josh is becoming more dynamic and trying to better see the entire field.  I believe him trying to make these changes is pushing the scrambling further down the priority list for now.

 

Dorsey also needs to learn how to dynamically play call (run game) to exploit what is working and better set up the passing game. 

 

No one was complaining about new Josh in the Miami game.  I am hoping much of this is growing pains and once Josh and Dorsey feel comfortable the unpredictable parts of Josh will be more prevalent, but the offense will be in far better shape.

 

 

Josh being Josh got them to the AFC championship game and divisional, which they should have won. The problem with taking that element out of his game is when a defense has the offense shut down, he doesn't have that tool in his tool box anymore to create a spark.

 

I'm not saying he can't evolve into a more traditional passer. I'm saying don't take away what makes him, him. Do you see Andy Reid trying to make Mahomes a traditional passer? No. He lets Pat be Pat and takes advantage of his unique play set.

[Buffalo716]

This is a 2 sided coin...

 

First... How much did every single person on this board say he needs to stop running as much? It's not sustainable they say

 

You can't play 15 years that way

 

Now... He's actually dialed it in.. is trying to not wreck his body... Which might hurt our offense during the regular season

 

But watch during playoffs when Josh turns it back on... And he takes off when he needs to.. and he becomes the best player in the world again 

 

It's a 17 game season now... He obviously is trying to stay healthy and not he as reckless 

[jkeerie]

One of the issues with limiting Josh's running, is it eliminates that threat from the opposing defensive schemes.  Our receivers are being blanketed because the opposing defense doesn't have to worry about the threat of Josh taking off.  LBs can easily drop into coverage.

 

[Einstein]

15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Others are getting separation.   

Watch the ALL-22 and you will find this to be not as accurate as you would hope.

Are there plays where they get separation? Sure. Is it common? No.
 

15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 Josh was locked in only Diggs only most of the night.

 

My hypothesis is that this happens because Diggs is the only receiver Allen trusts to get separation. 

[Scott7975]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

The most disturbing thing I heard during the game last night was the commentators talk about how Josh talked about how he doesn't make those crazy plays anymore and stuff.  Basically talking about taming down his game.  There has been so much made about his "turnovers" after the Jets game that now Josh is holding back when it comes to the things that makes Josh special.  

 

Josh doesn't just make a wow OMG insane play once in a while, he makes them many times a game be it with his arm or his legs.  But ever since the Jets game where he made a few mistakes, there is this HUGE push to tame Josh and its not just the media, Josh is saying it himself.  But the reality is, those "turnovers" have NOT been the issue for us...Josh being super man has NOT been the issue for us as to WHY we haven't made a Super Bowl yet.  In fact, they have been the ONLY reason we were even in the conversation for one.  

 

2021 - the first season where SB expectations were realistic and high coming off Josh's first breakout year he was INSANE in the playoffs.  Our defense got us bounced when he out dueled Mahomes but the limp defense folded in both 13 seconds and OT.  

 

2022 - the loss to Bengals was a team loss.  Being an air it out offense, we have been known to struggle in the bad weather games offensively because we couldn't run the ball.  The OL was terrible, Bengals dominated the trenches on both sides of the ball, and everyone had a bad game.  We didn't lose because of Josh "trying to be Superman"...this team just got its a** kicked in every facet of the game.  

 

So why are we trying to tame Josh?  Many times a game we extend drives or score because Josh did something unbelievable.  I am all for getting Josh to take what the defense gives him, look for quick strikes, etc.  But at the same time, this narrative that he needs to be tamed some is IMHO wrong.  He just isn't looking to make the big plays with his legs as much now or make those tougher throws as much.  There have now been many times this year, including games we lost, there were moments it looked like he could have run and made the big play with his legs but pulled up and tried to throw it instead or waited so long to try and throw it that the run opportunity closed and he got just a few yards instead.  

 

Not only is it affecting him making plays with his legs, but the hesitation from Josh trying to hold his instincts back seems to also keep him from seeing other opportunities now he normally would take.  Before, when Josh was buying time I feel like everything was an option.  Now, when he gets away from pressure it feels like he is locking on to an area where the safest throw should be and doesn't see guys wide open in other areas of the field he would normally fire a ball too in those moments.  

 

Coming into 2023, Mahomes only had 4 less INTs and Burrow only had 3 less INTs over the past 2 seasons.  And Mahomes has had more weapons in that time and a much better OL while Burrow has had substantially better weapons...not to mention Josh played half a season with a hurt throwing elbow and plays in worse weather.  But he doesn't really have that many more INTs than those guys despite the personnel advantages they have over Josh.  

 

So this need to try and tame Josh needs to go away IMHO, let him ball like his instincts know because we win A LOT more games than we lose because of it.  And its that Josh that this team needs, especially with the issues we already have with Dorsey.  

 

Just my 2 cents...

 

 

I been saying it since last year and some of it almost every year... they are going to coach Josh out of Josh.  People so scared he gonna turn into Cam Newton.  He won't. Cam Newton was never as good.  Now that the legs were coached out of him the big talk is .... "take what the defense gives you" crap.  Josh is not Brady.  We don't have receivers that made that type of offense work nor the offensive system that makes that type of offense work.  Josh has different attributes that make him special and both of those are coached out.  We saw two glimpses of it yesterday.  One where he just committed to and took off and ran and the other the TD pass.  That TD pass is the same pass everyone cries about when it's an int.  It's also what won us the game.

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

We need some WR's that can separate.

Look at this play - Diggs is double covered and not a single other receiving option can get seperation.

 

 

 

 

Yes, this happens a lot.  Somewhere though somebody is going to find an incompletion and show where some slow ass guy is wide open at the los and thinks they can bust one for 10 yards but in reality he would only get 6 on third down or Josh has already moved on and couldn't realistically get that person the ball because of the pressure.  People like to live in picture still moments and not realize that all that happens in 2 seconds.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Scott7975

[HappyDays]

22 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Bills still 5th in first downs, 3rd in points, 3rd in yards/play...considering our personnel what are the reasonable expectations?

 

With an elite QB, an elite WR1, and a solid run game, my reasonable expectation is that we score more than 0 points in 3 quarters against a bottom 5 defense. The play calling last night was abysmal. Against the Jags, same thing. Dorsey is not quick to adjust to what the opponent is doing or what we are doing well in the game.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

30 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

I’m hopeful we can beat New England without Josh Superman. 

but not Miami or KC...

[Alphadawg7]

28 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Should be? Same as calling the OC of a top 3 offense bad.

You mean the OC who inherited the number one offense in the NFL over the previous 2 years before him?  So at least you’re admitting the offense is worse under Dorsey  

 

And hate to break it you, Dorsey is not why the offense is ranked #3…go ask McDaniels what life as an OC and HC is like without Brady.  Brady made him, he has literally failed and stunk as both an OC and HC in 4 other jobs since he got to be a “great OC” with Brady.  
 

So yeah, sorry not buying into this concept that Dorsey is the magic sauce for our #3 ranked offense that struggled to score on Jags and Giants.

 

Dorsey is a big part of our problem 

 

 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

With an elite QB, an elite WR1, and a solid run game, my reasonable expectation is that we score more than 0 points in 3 quarters against a bottom 5 defense. The play calling last night was abysmal. Against the Jags, same thing. Dorsey is not quick to adjust to what the opponent is doing or what we are doing well in the game.

Chiefs fans are probably saying the same thing

 

and they have Reid designing that offense

[GunnerBill]

45 minutes ago, Gambit said:

This right here is more than enough reason we need to move on from Davis. Forget the drops for a sec, the guy is so limited pretty much every way possible. Hopefully some day, we can draft a speed demon who can catch for Allen.

 

I'd still have loved Addison. I know he has only been okay so far... but his skillset is what we needed.

[Reed83HOF]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. This is much more the issue than any changing of Josh or anything of that nature. Teams have reverted the past two weeks to double Diggs and man up the rest. The Bills don't have an answer at the moment because the other guys are not winning their assignments.

This handcuffs Dorsey's play calling as well

[Scott7975]

27 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

One of the issues with limiting Josh's running, is it eliminates that threat from the opposing defensive schemes.  Our receivers are being blanketed because the opposing defense doesn't have to worry about the threat of Josh taking off.  LBs can easily drop into coverage.

 

 

Yes, you get it.  Josh obviously isn't running much this year.  Defense has changed how they played him.  They don't need to spy him anymore.  They also don't need to really play contain on the rush anymore.  This makes it easier to both cover and rush the passer.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think it is partly a Dorsey problem though, just like it was a Daboll problem at times. If you look at the top offenses in football - Dolphins, 49ers, Lions - it looks like a different sport. I know the Dolphins and 49ers in particular have much better personnel than we do, but still the way those offenses run is a couple tiers higher than ours. All three have made limited QBs look like superstars. Meanwhile our offense led by an actual superstar QB puts up 0 points in 3 quarters against a bad defense. At a certain point how can you not lay some of the blame on Dorsey?

We embarrassed the Dolphins.  Destroyed them.  I don't remember Allen scrambling that much except to make throws.  He didn't need to.  When they're on, they can beat anyone imo.

[Gambit]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I'd still have loved Addison. I know he has only been okay so far... but his skillset is what we needed.

I'm 50-50 with you on that. I do think he has potential for sure but so does Kincaid. Just seems like Dorsey doesn't have a clue how to use him.

[Scott7975]

23 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Watch the ALL-22 and you will find this to be not as accurate as you would hope.

Are there plays where they get separation? Sure. Is it common? No.
 

My hypothesis is that this happens because Diggs is the only receiver Allen trusts to get separation. 

 

Josh did also say in the pc that Diggs is the first read in a lot of their concepts.  If Josh feels he is open or is going to get open then that is where Josh is going to go with the ball.  It doesn't matter how many screen grabs someone shows of some guy open on the los.  Josh probably didn't look there by design.

[Goin Breakdown]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Right😂😂now we have to settle for watching the guy who does things only 1 other QB can do as opposed to the guy who does things nobody else can do

 

We have got to realize how fortunate we are rn

For sure. I'm 100% happy we have Josh. It's not him I'm snarky about. It's the idea that this team has taken a Qb that, like you said does things that no other can do, and they told him to stop. I really don't think teams fear josh running anymore. I know I've seen more than a handful of plays where Josh could have ran for a first but instead he throws to covered receivers. (That's a whole other topic). 

[Scott7975]

7 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

We embarrassed the Dolphins.  Destroyed them.  I don't remember Allen scrambling that much except to make throws.  He didn't need to.  When they're on, they can beat anyone imo.

 

Miami has one of the worst defenses in the league.  I expected us to destroy them.  Even the Giants have a better rated defense than Miami.  It was McD and that defense that gets some kudos for that game.  Not many defenses can slow down their offense.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Scott7975

[Buffalo_Stampede]

18 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

You mean the OC who inherited the number one offense in the NFL over the previous 2 years before him?  So at least you’re admitting the offense is worse under Dorsey  

 

And hate to break it you, Dorsey is not why the offense is ranked #3…go ask McDaniels what life as an OC and HC is like without Brady.  Brady made him, he has literally failed and stunk as both an OC and HC in 4 other jobs since he got to be a “great OC” with Brady.  
 

So yeah, sorry not buying into this concept that Dorsey is the magic sauce for our #3 ranked offense that struggled to score on Jags and Giants.

 

Dorsey is a big part of our problem 

 

 

They’ve never had the number 1 offense. Dorsey finished with the #2 offense in 2022, they improved from the previous season. Doesn’t really matter. Top 2, top 3, top 5. Who cares, all good offenses.

 

Yes, you need good players and especially good QBs to have consistently good offenses.

 

Dorsey is likely a product of Josh Allen. He didn’t build this offense. I think many OCs would have success with Josh Allen. The same type of success Dorsey is having.

 

I don’t know what you could possibly expect from another OC. This is a production based business. The production is there. You’d hold the next guy to unrealistic expectations, basically the same as Dorsey.

 

If production falls to let’s say out of the top 10 overall offense then maybe there’s a discussion to be had about Dorsey.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said:

We embarrassed the Dolphins.  Destroyed them.  I don't remember Allen scrambling that much except to make throws.  He didn't need to.  When they're on, they can beat anyone imo.

 

I think the Dolphins game was a case of an old behind the times DC calling the kind of soft zone defense that we have all come to hate. Against that kind of zone defense our offense thrives, no doubt. Our pass catchers can't separate in man coverage but they can find holes in zone and we have a lot of zone beater plays we run at a very high level.

 

What's happened the past two weeks is the Jags and Giants coaching staffs realized if you double Diggs and dare everybody behind him to separate in man coverage, you will mostly be able to stop us. Dorsey to my eyes hasn't called a lot of great man beating concepts the past two weeks. We aren't putting defenders in conflict or muddying up their coverage rules, we're just sending guys out on basic routes and asking them to win their 1v1s. Obviously with this group of mediocre pass catchers that isn't going to get it done.

 

We'll soon have games against top tier DCs like Lou Anarumo and Steve Spagnuolo. I know what they're going to do - double Diggs, cover everyone else in man, call exotic blitzes and simulated pressures which have been proven to confuse our OL. The exact same gameplan teams used against us last year. A full season later and we still haven't found a personnel or schematic answer.

[Solomon Grundy]

4 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

That Jets game is going to have a legacy…. That was a terrible loss

The Eagles feel the same way😎