Unleash Josh Allen...stop trying to change him

[PBF81]

Who knows what's going on, but to suggest that coaching isn't primarily responsible or that McD should be insulated from that from a coaching perspective is irresponsible.  

 

 

[Big Blitz]

2 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

See, now that's a play where he should run.

 

If all the receivers are blanketed, he can REALLY punish a defense with his legs. Whoever's telling him NOT to do that is wrong.

 

 

This.  
 

But I think up until our D was decimated we knew we were going to be fine him not running and trying to dink and dunk was ok - week 9 and beyond he has to be unleashed.  
 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Big Blitz

[RobbRiddick]

Somebody give Josh some sugar!

[colin]

having zero athletes on O besides cook and diggs is an issue.  davis is ok deep, but is not fast or big.  knox is an athlete, but just can't catch.  maybe kinkaid will work out, but honestly, we shoulda let hines and harty walk, and signed hopkins or someone.  we'd be 4-1 or 5-0

[Wayne Arnold]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

The most disturbing thing I heard during the game last night was the commentators talk about how Josh talked about how he doesn't make those crazy plays anymore and stuff.  Basically talking about taming down his game.  There has been so much made about his "turnovers" after the Jets game that now Josh is holding back when it comes to the things that makes Josh special.  

 

Josh doesn't just make a wow OMG insane play once in a while, he makes them many times a game be it with his arm or his legs.  But ever since the Jets game where he made a few mistakes, there is this HUGE push to tame Josh and its not just the media, Josh is saying it himself.  But the reality is, those "turnovers" have NOT been the issue for us...Josh being super man has NOT been the issue for us as to WHY we haven't made a Super Bowl yet.  In fact, they have been the ONLY reason we were even in the conversation for one.  

 

2021 - the first season where SB expectations were realistic and high coming off Josh's first breakout year he was INSANE in the playoffs.  Our defense got us bounced when he out dueled Mahomes but the limp defense folded in both 13 seconds and OT.  

 

2022 - the loss to Bengals was a team loss.  Being an air it out offense, we have been known to struggle in the bad weather games offensively because we couldn't run the ball.  The OL was terrible, Bengals dominated the trenches on both sides of the ball, and everyone had a bad game.  We didn't lose because of Josh "trying to be Superman"...this team just got its a** kicked in every facet of the game.  

 

So why are we trying to tame Josh?  Many times a game we extend drives or score because Josh did something unbelievable.  I am all for getting Josh to take what the defense gives him, look for quick strikes, etc.  But at the same time, this narrative that he needs to be tamed some is IMHO wrong.  He just isn't looking to make the big plays with his legs as much now or make those tougher throws as much.  There have now been many times this year, including games we lost, there were moments it looked like he could have run and made the big play with his legs but pulled up and tried to throw it instead or waited so long to try and throw it that the run opportunity closed and he got just a few yards instead.  

 

Not only is it affecting him making plays with his legs, but the hesitation from Josh trying to hold his instincts back seems to also keep him from seeing other opportunities now he normally would take.  Before, when Josh was buying time I feel like everything was an option.  Now, when he gets away from pressure it feels like he is locking on to an area where the safest throw should be and doesn't see guys wide open in other areas of the field he would normally fire a ball too in those moments.  

 

Coming into 2023, Mahomes only had 4 less INTs and Burrow only had 3 less INTs over the past 2 seasons.  And Mahomes has had more weapons in that time and a much better OL while Burrow has had substantially better weapons...not to mention Josh played half a season with a hurt throwing elbow and plays in worse weather.  But he doesn't really have that many more INTs than those guys despite the personnel advantages they have over Josh.  

 

So this need to try and tame Josh needs to go away IMHO, let him ball like his instincts know because we win A LOT more games than we lose because of it.  And its that Josh that this team needs, especially with the issues we already have with Dorsey.  

 

Just my 2 cents...

 

 

Couldn't disagree more.

 

Allen is having the best season of his career so far because he's playing within himself and taking what the defense gives him since the Jets debacle.

 

If there's a problem with the offense, Josh ain't it.

 

Maybe we need a GM that can evaluate talent and give him more weapons than just Diggs. Davis (overrated) and Knox (overpaid) are uncoordinated bums with rocks for hands. Everyone else is jag at best. Remains to be seen what Kincaid is but early indications aren't great considering what we invested in him.

 

Then there's Dorsey's inability to see how productive the offense is when Josh is under center as opposed to shotgun/pistol...

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Couldn't disagree more.

 

Allen is having the best season of his career so far because he's playing within himself and taking what the defense gives him since the Jets debacle.

 

If there's a problem with the offense, Josh ain't it.

 

Maybe we need a GM that can evaluate talent and give him more weapons than just Diggs. Davis (overrated) and Knox (overpaid) are uncoordinated bums with rocks for hands. Everyone else is jag at best. Remains to be seen what Kincaid is but early indications aren't great considering what we invested in him.

 

Then there's Dorsey's inability to see how productive the offense is when Josh is under center as opposed to shotgun/pistol...

 

What makes it the best year of his career?  Higher comp %?  

 

Again, I didn't say stop taking what the defense gives him, but we also need to stop coaching out of him the things that make him special.

[GaryPinC]

23 minutes ago, Herc11 said:

I've been saying the same thing since game one this season. You have to let Josh be Josh. They are essentially taking away the element that makes him special. His ability to play off script is the weapon that frustrates defenses and our coaching staff wants to handicap him by taking that element out of his game.

Josh being Josh means keying and slinging it downfield into coverage or scrambling when shorter routes were open.  It's too predictable and quality defenses are using it against him, like the Jets. 

 

Josh is becoming more dynamic and trying to better see the entire field.  I believe him trying to make these changes is pushing the scrambling further down the priority list for now.

 

Dorsey also needs to learn how to dynamically play call (run game) to exploit what is working and better set up the passing game. 

 

No one was complaining about new Josh in the Miami game.  I am hoping much of this is growing pains and once Josh and Dorsey feel comfortable the unpredictable parts of Josh will be more prevalent, but the offense will be in far better shape.

 

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

On pace for 4,500 passing yards, 36 passing TDs, and 9 rushing TDs.

 

Can’t wait to see him unleashed.

4-2 and should be 3-3 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

Nope.  Keep sliding.  Keep getting rid of it before going over the line.  Get better design and play calling.  Get him his confidence back.  He is the most important part of the puzzle.  No chance of a SB without him....  QB's getting hurt every week.  He's not invincible...

Edited October 16, 2023 by Joe Ferguson forever

[Joe Ferguson forever]

17 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

This.  
 

But I think up until our D was decimated we knew we were going to be fine him not running and trying to dink and dunk was ok - week 9 and beyond he has to be unleashed.  
 

 

 

he threw several balls that were lasers downfield.  not dinking and dunking just not gelling.

[Alphadawg7]

44 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

What we're seeing the past two weeks is that Josh Allen playing conservative "within the scheme" QB is not good enough to get it done. The only time we have moved the ball and scored the past two weeks is when he makes a "hero ball" throw that ends up being a huge net positive play. The Jags and Giants figured out that if you run mostly man coverage against this mediocre group of weapons, as long as you don't let Diggs singlehandedly beat you the Bills offense is easy to stop.

 

If the solution still is "let Josh run" that represents a failure of the front office and the coaching. Allen running should be a supplemental piece of our offense, not the motor that makes it run. For three years now we have failed to give him legitimate help behind Diggs and failed to run a creative offense that schemes receivers open. Dorsey is totally lost, but this problem honestly still existed when Daboll was here too. Ultimately Beane and McDermott are the ones responsible. They own this mess. They have to fix it.

 

This is really my whole point here.  We need Josh to be able to make those plays right now because our OC and the guys around him aren't consistent enough outside of Diggs.  I think it has a lot to do with Dorsey personally because I think there is enough talent here to be better than we are showing.

 

This is 2 straight weeks of the offense having issues, Dorsey not having a plan, Dorsey not adjusting well and Dorsey getting away from the things statistically the offense does best.  Allen under center is statistically sensational this year...but Dorsey is obsessed with the gun.  Even on goal and inches with a Saquatch as your QB he tries to run from gun where the RB gets the ball 5 yards behind the LOS.  

 

But I have seen Josh pull up when he should have ran...look for the short dump when he had guys running wide open in the middle coming back to him uncovered...etc.  These are plays he has made to mask the deficiencies of the offense in the past, now he isn't looking for them as often anymore.  And the offense needs those plays to overcome the shortcomings of the roster and OC.  

 

I don't want to see those awful designed runs, I mean he just isn't pulling the trigger when the running opportunities are there when he doesn't have guys down field or he gets flushed out of the pocket.  Or he isn't looking to the middle or other side of the field to make those crazy throws when there are guys there and instead just taking a short loss/run, check down, or throw away.  

 

He doesn't need to be reckless, but dont want to see him gun shy either.  

[Joe Ferguson forever]

9 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This is really my whole point here.  We need Josh to be able to make those plays right now because our OC and the guys around him aren't consistent enough outside of Diggs.  I think it has a lot to do with Dorsey personally because I think there is enough talent here to be better than we are showing.

 

This is 2 straight weeks of the offense having issues, Dorsey not having a plan, Dorsey not adjusting well and Dorsey getting away from the things statistically the offense does best.  Allen under center is statistically sensational this year...but Dorsey is obsessed with the gun.  Even on goal and inches with a Saquatch as your QB he tries to run from gun where the RB gets the ball 5 yards behind the LOS.  

 

But I have seen Josh pull up when he should have ran...look for the short dump when he had guys running wide open in the middle coming back to him uncovered...etc.  These are plays he has made to mask the deficiencies of the offense in the past, now he isn't looking for them as often anymore.  And the offense needs those plays to overcome the shortcomings of the roster and OC.  

 

I don't want to see those awful designed runs, I mean he just isn't pulling the trigger when the running opportunities are there when he doesn't have guys down field or he gets flushed out of the pocket.  Or he isn't looking to the middle or other side of the field to make those crazy throws when there are guys there and instead just taking a short loss/run, check down, or throw away.  

 

He doesn't need to be reckless, but dont want to see him gun shy either.  

when you don't have talent you don't start the season 2nd or 3rd best odds for the SB, even with Josh Allen as your QB.

[billsfan89]

Corporate Josh as some have called him plays a winning style that while less exciting will keep him available and avoid turnovers. He still takes chances and such just not as crazy. 

[Gambit]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. This is much more the issue than any changing of Josh or anything of that nature. Teams have reverted the past two weeks to double Diggs and man up the rest. The Bills don't have an answer at the moment because the other guys are not winning their assignments.

This right here is more than enough reason we need to move on from Davis. Forget the drops for a sec, the guy is so limited pretty much every way possible. Hopefully some day, we can draft a speed demon who can catch for Allen.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

What we're seeing the past two weeks is that Josh Allen playing conservative "within the scheme" QB is not good enough to get it done. The only time we have moved the ball and scored the past two weeks is when he makes a "hero ball" throw that ends up being a huge net positive play. The Jags and Giants figured out that if you run mostly man coverage against this mediocre group of weapons, as long as you don't let Diggs singlehandedly beat you the Bills offense is easy to stop.

 

If the solution still is "let Josh run" that represents a failure of the front office and the coaching. Allen running should be a supplemental piece of our offense, not the motor that makes it run. For three years now we have failed to give him legitimate help behind Diggs and failed to run a creative offense that schemes receivers open. Dorsey is totally lost, but this problem honestly still existed when Daboll was here too. Ultimately Beane and McDermott are the ones responsible. They own this mess. They have to fix it.

Agree with this 100%. 

 

Beane/McDermott has taken the team building philosophy to keep as much of the 2020 core together as possible, and focus resources on the pass rush to combat Mahomes. 

 

To me this mindset really started when they signed Emmanuel Sanders on his last legs, but offensively the Bills came into last year with Diggs, Davis, and then Jamison Crowder, Isaiah McKenzie, Jake Kumerow, and Kahlil Shakir, with Singletary, Cook and Knox. 

 

They turned over the bottom of the WR room this year by ditching Kumerow, McKenzie, Crowder, but the mold is the exact same because of money restrictions, low-end veteran WRs with no history of being a priority target: Sherfield (<1,000 career yards), Harty (<1,000 career yards). 

 

Now it's Kincaid. 

 

Now some of it is the draft didn't fall great this year with the run on WR starting before their pick, but back to the point, this idea that the team has to be intact has potentially led us to drafting/signing pass catching running backs, and passing on George Pickens. 

 

Gabe made captain. Gabe being called the hardest worker by Beane, they won't move off him, and Dorsey hasn't shown any ability to scheme new players into the offensive (see Hines and Kincaid). 

 

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

We need some WR's that can separate.

Look at this play - Diggs is double covered and not a single other receiving option can get seperation.

 

 

 

 

Others are getting separation.  An example at 00;38 in this clip, on a 3rd and 6, Josh is locked on Diggs, who is right at the 1st down marker in tight double coverage and he completes a high risk pass.  Yet all alone, beyond the 1st down marker, heading toward the sideline just beyond Diggs is Davis.   A much easier 1st down lob.

 

https://www.nfl.com/videos/stefon-diggs-best-catches-from-100-yard-game-vs-giants-week-6

 

Then there are several short quick passes to Diggs.   Josh was locked in only Diggs only most of the night.

 

[Dr.Sack]

I’m hopeful we can beat New England without Josh Superman. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

39 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

4-2 and should be 3-3 

Should be? Same as calling the OC of a top 3 offense bad.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 hours ago, Bangarang said:

I don’t like that running was coached out of Josh. It was such a dynamic part of his game and what made him elite. 
 

Running was never the problem, it was taking unnecessary contact.

 

Watching him avoid picking up easy yards with his feet just to try and force a throw outside of the pocket has been frustrating.

And he's getting crushed anyways. 

 

Holding the ball waiting for anyone not named Diggs to do anything. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think it is partly a Dorsey problem though, just like it was a Daboll problem at times. If you look at the top offenses in football - Dolphins, 49ers, Lions - it looks like a different sport. I know the Dolphins and 49ers in particular have much better personnel than we do, but still the way those offenses run is a couple tiers higher than ours. All three have made limited QBs look like superstars. Meanwhile our offense led by an actual superstar QB puts up 0 points in 3 quarters against a bad defense. At a certain point how can you not lay some of the blame on Dorsey?

I'm not saying Dorsey or Dablol are top offensive minds or anything, they both lucked into Allen at QB

 

like what more do we expect out of an offense fielding Davis as second option and Dawson Knox as TE1

 

Bills still 5th in first downs, 3rd in points, 3rd in yards/play...considering our personnel what are the reasonable expectations?