Suggestions on how to address the Bills sudden offensive struggles?

[Bill51390]

Dorsey needs to get more creative like they did in the second half. Also, Allen only has 22 carries for 131 yards this season. I get what they are doing, trying to keep him healthy. But I thought the focus was going to be working on him sliding and going down, not completely taking that out of his game. 

[UKBillFan]

1 minute ago, Dopey said:

I wasn't upset with Josh's play last night. The whole first half was on the players. I listed 3 things before even mentioning Josh. IMO, Dorsey is being made out as a scapegoat for the players. Diggs drop, Davis fumbling, Bass missing FGs, Josh's pick. Not to mention we had 2 wrs wide open and they were tripped up by the db. The Davis trip was a TD in the making, IMO. Crap happens and that's not on Dorsey. That 3rd qt drive was awesome. 2 tds ion the 4th. The players didn't help make this an efficient offense last night. 

 

I was referring to the Jets game - Josh was in a funk there and no one seemed capable of bringing him out of it. This was an issue under Daboll as well, when Dorsey was in the QB room. There needs to be someone within the franchise who can get into his head and calm him down.

 

Yesterday was failure across the offense and, in fairness to him, other than a couple of throws (I don't think the INT was dreadful; it was great defensive play), so I'd put Josh towards the bottom of the list to blame.

[SCBills]

Either figure out how to make Dalton Kincaid the chain moving option outside of Diggs or trade for someone who can be that.

 

I think it's almost as simple as that. 

[Billever76]

Package our first next year and a player(s) and get another #1 wr...this offense has to pull the weight now that the defense is down 3 star players

30 minutes ago, Bill51390 said:

Dorsey needs to get more creative like they did in the second half. Also, Allen only has 22 carries for 131 yards this season. I get what they are doing, trying to keep him healthy. But I thought the focus was going to be working on him sliding and going down, not completely taking that out of his game. 

Our brilliant coaches have took half of what makes allen elite and completely neutered it..what other coaching staff would ever do that?

30 minutes ago, Bill51390 said:

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Billever76

[Dubie54]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

Slot receivers are about being able to repeatedly run option routes, and that requires total trust between the QB and the receiver. It's why Kelce is always open. They are trying to work Kincaid up to being that player, but it takes time. Shakir and Harty aren't that player. 

If Dorsey were creative he would find ways to utilize their speed more effectively. But the route running of the Bills offense is not creative and is predictable. Harty averaged 14/YPC two years ago on a mediocre Saints team. I think they have the ability to help spread the field and create match up problems on quick slant cross routes. Dorsey is making limited effort to try this out. Kincaid will definitely be an valuable asset on slot routes, but he doesn't have the speed of these guys.

[stlbills13]

More easy chain moving passes to Kincaid or early down targets for him to leave manageable 3rd downs.

 

As much as he needs to protect himself, more freedom for Josh to run. 

 

If you're gonna be in the shotgun, more RPO's especially with Cook

 

3-4 targets per game for Cook

 

We did this too much last year, but more designed deep balls rather than just throwing it deep when everything breaks down in front of Josh

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

22 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yeah I know, buoyed by those empty Jaguars stats late in the 4th. 

 

Gabe stinks. 

 

You can defend his pace all you want, he had his worst game of the season tonight, 3 for 21 and a fumble. 

 

2 for 32 against NY, 1 for 35 and a TD against Washington, 3 for 21 tonight. 

 

Half of the games he doesn't show up. 

 

Isn't it obvious that Allen to Diggs is the only reliable thing this offense has? 

 

Knox can't do it. Sherfield can't do it. Harty is a gadget player. Shakir can't do it. 

 

 

 

Kind of hard for him to show up when 90% of the passes go to 1 WR.... Dawson Knox makes what? 13M a season, that is the 1 the hate should be towards. 

[Beck Water]

So I've been giving this some thought.

I'm influenced by the Cover1 piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRlDxAZ2IAI and some other all-22 I've watched.

 

I think there are 3 parts to the problem:

1) Josh. 

a) Josh is fibbing to us in press conferences saying "if Diggs is the first read and he's open, I throw to him".  True and appropriate, but not always.  It's pretty plain in the film cutup above, that at times Josh is ignoring a far more open receiver to throw to a double or even triple covered Diggs.  He needs to cut that out.

b) fast decisions to take what the defense gives him need to improve.  Sometimes Josh, under immediate pressure, could take a quick dump-off to Cook or Knox but still passes them up to extend the play and try to force the ball to Diggs, especially if Diggs is deep.  He still wants those aggressive chunk plays, when sometimes he needs to move the chains

c)trust the run more.  RPO, light box, take the RUN option, don't try to throw it to Diggs.

2) Our personnel.  In 2020, when teams tried to cover us with man, we had Diggs who could still get open, Sanders could open, McKenzie could run away from them.  Seeing too many plays where it's man, and no one is open enough that Josh takes them.  This is pretty simple - we need to figure out who on the team CAN get open against man besides Diggs, and put them in position to get open.  Harty isn't doing it from the LOS, he needs to be off it, or we need some pick plays, or something.  Or maybe he's lost 3 steps and he's just a dud, I don't know - he kind of looks to me like 2022 Beasley, not explosive and way too slow.

3) Dorsey, or how Dorsey is allowing the WR coach to implement his play designs (either way it goes to Dorsey).  I really hate some of the route combos and how they're being run.  Instead of stretching the defenders all over the field, it seems too often we're bunching them up.  Kurt Warner did a piece on this after the Jets game showing how the depth of route impacted the defenders.  And several guys have had good points - we don't have (enough) motion, we don't have trickery, we aren't scheming guys open (see point 2 above).

 

So what are my solutions? 

1) Well, a lot of times what I've seen is that Josh's option in structure is a quick flat route by Cook - and if Diggs is tripled and everyone else is locked down, Cook has grass in front of him.  Josh needs to TAKE THAT and trust his guys to get YAC.

2) Dorsey needs to look at some film cutups with a defensive coordinator and get input on improving the depth of routes and the combination of routes, to better stretch the defense, instead of having everyone all in one spot.  He also needs to bring out and dust off some plays that will scheme the personnel we have open against man coverage, be that giving Harty a free release, or letting Harty or Sherfield go deep if he's putting Diggs in the backfield and letting him run option routes.

3) Figure out who Josh trusts and play them.  Seriously - if Josh doesn't trust Knox, sit him and put in Morris or a 6th OLman.

 

I don't think Fournette is the answer.

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Beck Water

[Warriorspikes51]

Again, it may greatly help to have a couple designed runs for Allen early in games to get the O fired up

 

Will also increase the chance of Allen being able to freeze LB’s and connect on passes as the game goes on

Edited October 17, 2023 by Warriorspikes51

[Beck Water]

15 hours ago, UKBillFan said:

Yesterday was failure across the offense and, in fairness to him, other than a couple of throws (I don't think the INT was dreadful; it was great defensive play), so I'd put Josh towards the bottom of the list to blame.

 

I thought the INT was bad.

[Ayjent]

20 hours ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

We have one. Mike Shula. 

Part of me was hoping we gave him the ball on a Jet. But then I remembered Dorsey doesn't run them. 

You’ve identified one of the problems right there. Mike Shula.

 

A lot of people have already touched on it but things are too precarious requiring perfect execution to sustain drives.  We do something successfully and then try to get too cute executing something else that is playing right into the hands of the defense by not sticking to what they can’t defend. The outside passes were there all night, and so were schemed passes to the shallow flats.  Instead, we were attacking the middle of the field consistently, despite the Giants being most susceptible outside the hash marks. We were running right into the strongest part of the Giants D, albeit more successfully than some other things like the over the middle passing game.  The LBs were waiting for the over the middle playaction and in the lanes, and we could have took them to the woodshed early by just having Cook, Knox, Harty or Shakir running outside routes off motion in the flats if the other receivers flooded the middle or off of chip and releases in play action.  
 

It was a really bad game plan AND poor execution, looking exactly like what it was: the more talented team prevailing on talent despite being out coached and outplayed for much of the game. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Ayjent

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 hours ago, Beck Water said:

So I've been giving this some thought.

I'm influenced by the Cover1 piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRlDxAZ2IAI and some other all-22 I've watched.

 

I think there are 3 parts to the problem:

1) Josh. 

a) Josh is fibbing to us in press conferences saying "if Diggs is the first read and he's open, I throw to him".  True and appropriate, but not always.  It's pretty plain in the film cutup above, that at times Josh is ignoring a far more open receiver to throw to a double or even triple covered Diggs.  He needs to cut that out.

b) fast decisions to take what the defense gives him need to improve.  Sometimes Josh, under immediate pressure, could take a quick dump-off to Cook or Knox but still passes them up to extend the play and try to force the ball to Diggs, especially if Diggs is deep.  He still wants those aggressive chunk plays, when sometimes he needs to move the chains

c)trust the run more.  RPO, light box, take the RUN option, don't try to throw it to Diggs.

2) Our personnel.  In 2020, when teams tried to cover us with man, we had Diggs who could still get open, Sanders could open, McKenzie could run away from them.  Seeing too many plays where it's man, and no one is open enough that Josh takes them.  This is pretty simple - we need to figure out who on the team CAN get open against man besides Diggs, and put them in position to get open.  Harty isn't doing it from the LOS, he needs to be off it, or we need some pick plays, or something.  Or maybe he's lost 3 steps and he's just a dud, I don't know - he kind of looks to me like 2022 Beasley, not explosive and way too slow.

3) Dorsey, or how Dorsey is allowing the WR coach to implement his play designs (either way it goes to Dorsey).  I really hate some of the route combos and how they're being run.  Instead of stretching the defenders all over the field, it seems too often we're bunching them up.  Kurt Warner did a piece on this after the Jets game showing how the depth of route impacted the defenders.  And several guys have had good points - we don't have (enough) motion, we don't have trickery, we aren't scheming guys open (see point 2 above).

 

So what are my solutions? 

1) Well, a lot of times what I've seen is that Josh's option in structure is a quick flat route by Cook - and if Diggs is tripled and everyone else is locked down, Cook has grass in front of him.  Josh needs to TAKE THAT and trust his guys to get YAC.

2) Dorsey needs to look at some film cutups with a defensive coordinator and get input on improving the depth of routes and the combination of routes, to better stretch the defense, instead of having everyone all in one spot.  He also needs to bring out and dust off some plays that will scheme the personnel we have open against man coverage, be that giving Harty a free release, or letting Harty or Sherfield go deep if he's putting Diggs in the backfield and letting him run option routes.

3) Figure out who Josh trusts and play them.  Seriously - if Josh doesn't trust Knox, sit him and put in Morris or a 6th OLman.

 

I don't think Fournette is the answer.

 

 

 

But Beck, look at all the gymnastics you are having to do to try and come up with solutions.

 

And a lot of those solutions are take more checkdowns.

 

Why? Because we have sub-par personnel that can’t shake coverage. 
 

Throw more to Cook, dump off to Harty, WGRs obsession to try to recreate Cole Beasley, have Sherfield get deep - these are not structures you can build anything on. 

 

Bottom line here is Allen wants to throw vertically to WRs.
 

His preference is WR, not Tight Ends, not RBs. The Bills have insisted that he use the running backs more and it doesn’t happen. Singletary was sporadic, Hines was a joke, Cook catches a ball here or there, the veteran third down back Breida/Yeldon/Harris/Murray are not going to be passing game factors. 
 

The problem is an overall lack of speed in our group, an overall lack of size, an overall lack of talent. We have “guys”. 
 

Our offense right now is dependent on Allen making key-hole, tight window, hole shot throws to anyone not named Diggs.

 

Now we all know Dorsey is a pedestrian OC. There isn’t movement, Knox never catches anything on the move, everything feels like it is to the sidelines, and Allen does lose patient with checkdowns and heave deep (Jets, Jaguars). 

 

We’re the 2017-2021 Packers with Rodgers to Adams. 

Sign Fournette, pound the rock and throw to Diggs. I’m not surprised we’ve ended up in the same logic spot as those Packers did with pedestrian OC/HC McCarthy. 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck