The Official Fire Ken Dorsey Thread

[Scott7975]

4 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

It is not in any way realistic to expect every QB to make an accurate throw on every play nor is it reasonable to expect every receiver/TE/RB to catch every pass, especially errant ones.  It’s just not the real world.

 

What I find curious is that this particular throw is something that should be accurate 90+% of the time and the catch is maybe a 50/50 yet you are harshly judging Knox while given Allen a pass.  Is Allen a better player at his position than Knox overall?  If you say yes I completely agree, but on THAT Allen deserves the brunt of the blame.  Feeling the need  to pin it all on Knox is weird.  It’s cultish.

 

Maybe because this happens all to often with Knox.  His catch rate this year is again abysmal.  He got a big contract and he is not living up to that contract. If he just dropped a ball once in a while that is one thing.  Thats not the case though.  He drops balls all the time.  He kills drives.  Championship teams have their skill players come through for them.  I have zero confidence in Knox coming through on the important catches.  Ultimately its drops like these that derail a season and kill a chance at a trophy.  Its the QBs job to give the receiver a chance to catch the ball.  Its the receivers job to make that catch.

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Maybe because this happens all to often with Knox.  His catch rate this year is again abysmal.  He got a big contract and he is not living up to that contract. If he just dropped a ball once in a while that is one thing.  Thats not the case though.  He drops balls all the time.  He kills drives.  Championship teams have their skill players come through for them.  I have zero confidence in Knox coming through on the important catches.  Ultimately its drops like these that derail a season and kill a chance at a trophy.  Its the QBs job to give the receiver a chance to catch the ball.  Its the receivers job to make that catch.

Any expectations at all for Josh?  Or just:

 

 

 

[1ManRaid]

3 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Tom Brady is greatest QB sneaker I think

 

Josh had never failed a sneak until Tennessee turf gave out under his foot.  Then Morse snapped the ball into his own thigh against the Vikings.  By homer law you give it to our home boy Josh.

[HoofHearted]

7 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

The one thing that irks me most about vanilla Dorsey is that he doesnt really challenge the talent on this offense with innovative play designs. I have not seen much in the way of trickery or schemes that are complex. Does he not trust these guys to pull off complicated plays? Daboll had confidence in Josh to run that kind of offense but Dorsey seems a little scared. What has resulted is a predictable offense that defensive coaches can neutralize (if they plan properly).

What would you qualify as trickery or complex schemes? I’m genuinely asking, not trying to be sarcastic.

17 hours ago, GETTOTHE50 said:

Dorsey’s shotgun runs are the equivalent of guessing C on an multiple choice exam when you don’t know what to do but are still confident you’ll ‘pass’

Dart from gun was the most productive run scheme we had vs the Giants of the schemes that were run more than twice.

[oldmanfan]

I was ready to kill Dorsey Sunday night.  But we have a top 5 offense right now despite his odd play calls at times and despite Josh having brain freezes on occasion.  So the question is who do you bring in that would do a better job?  People always want to go where the grass is greener, but many more times than not when you do so the grass is brown.

Edited October 18, 2023 by oldmanfan

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

It is not in any way realistic to expect every QB to make an accurate throw on every play nor is it reasonable to expect every receiver/TE/RB to catch every pass, especially errant ones.  It’s just not the real world.

 

What I find curious is that this particular throw is something that should be accurate 90+% of the time and the catch is maybe a 50/50 yet you are harshly judging Knox while given Allen a pass.  Is Allen a better player at his position than Knox overall?  If you say yes I completely agree, but on THAT Allen deserves the brunt of the blame.  Feeling the need  to pin it all on Knox is weird.  It’s cultish.

Most people have acknowledged that Allen could have made a better throw.  But as you say he can't be expected to make great throws every time.  If Knox were catching 100 passes per season and was making numerous great catches you would have a point.  But while Knox is solid this was the kind of slightly off target throw that he must catch to give him the benefit of doubt that you think he deserves.

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said:

Any expectations at all for Josh?  Or just:

 

 

 

We have very high expectations of Allen but you guys seem to have insanely high expectations. Again when I watch the other elite QB's in action they seem to benefit far more often from great catches and extraordinary runs after the catch then Allen does.  The other elite QB's will miss on throws all the time yet be "rescued" by superb catches by their skill players.  Looking at the Knox drop I have a hard time thinking that would have been a superb catch. It was a tough catch but well within the NFL norm.

 

I've noticed that several of you posters use the same "cult" description when any Bills fans defend Allen and demand more out of our O line and skill players not named Diggs.  But defending Allen from your cheap shots is actually easy when you can point to his stats and repeated wow plays in game after game.

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

16 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It's about consistency. They have been way too feast and famine this year.

Can you enlighten us on who has been consistent this season?

 

 

[Livinginthepast]

24 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

What would you qualify as trickery or complex schemes? I’m genuinely asking, not trying to be sarcastic.

Dart from gun was the most productive run scheme we had vs the Giants of the schemes that were run more than twice.

Nothing even that radical, A reverse, a fake reverse, a half back option, a flea flicker, the RB option that throws back to Josh (done successfully twice by Daboll). Any of these plays thrown into a game would be great to see. 

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

We have very high expectations of Allen but you guys seem to have insanely high expectations. Again when I watch the other elite QB's in action they seem to benefit far more often from great catches and extraordinary runs after the catch then Allen does.  The other elite QB's will miss on throws all the time yet be "rescued" by superb catches by their skill players.  Looking at the Knox drop I have a hard time thinking that would have been a superb catch. It was a tough catch but well within the NFL norm.

 

I've noticed that several of you posters use the same "cult" description when any Bills fans defend Allen and demand more out of our O line and skill players not named Diggs.  But defending Allen from your cheap shots is actually easy when you can point to his stats and repeated wow plays in game after game.

 

 

Knox should have made the catch and Josh could have made a better throw.  It doesn’t have to be either/or.  We all love Josh but he’s not immune to critique.  He was awful in the season opener for example.  I think the offense really hums when Josh spreads the ball around some.  He didn’t the first half Sunday, he did the second half.  And we saw the results.

[CincyBillsFan]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Knox should have made the catch and Josh could have made a better throw.  It doesn’t have to be either/or. 

Which is exactly what I've been saying.  But it's also fair to point out that Allen seems to get a lot less help with his off target throws from his skill players not named Diggs then the other elite QB's get.

 

 

[HoofHearted]

17 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

Nothing even that radical, A reverse, a fake reverse, a half back option, a flea flicker, the RB option that throws back to Josh (done successfully twice by Daboll). Any of these plays thrown into a game would be great to see. 

The problem with most of those is that they're one off deals. You can use them for a game, but then can't come back to them for a while because everyone will prepare for them. I'd much rather see us lean more into motioning for misdirection. We do some of it already, but nowhere near at the clip that the Dolphins or 49ers are.

[CincyBillsFan]

I haven't read this whole thread yet so maybe this has already been pointed out but Dorsey and Allen deserve a huge amount of credit for cleaning things up in the red zone.  This was a big problem from last season and they're now one of if not the best red zone team.  For sure they're best passing red zone team. After last season this turnaround is no small thing.

[4merper4mer]

34 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Most people have acknowledged that Allen could have made a better throw.  But as you say he can't be expected to make great throws every time.  If Knox were catching 100 passes per season and was making numerous great catches you would have a point.  But while Knox is solid this was the kind of slightly off target throw that he must catch to give him the benefit of doubt that you think he deserves.

 

 

Lol any criticism of Allen is met with irrational revisionist insanity.  You know who agrees with me that Allen’s throw was the primary culprit on that play?  Not Dorsey’s call, not Knox’s “drop”, not whatever horrifying mistake Davis made on that play….but Allen’s throw?  Josh Allen agrees, that’s who agrees.  Watch his interview after the game.

 

Its ok to admit he’s not perfect and we don’t need 52 more guys to make a 53 man roster.  
 

Allen is the most important player on this team.  There are maybe five QBs you could argue you could swap for and maintain our place.  Personally I would only even consider one.  That doesn’t mean every time he makes a mistake we need to trash a coach or one of his teammates.  It’s a joke and a cult.

[K D]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

I was ready to kill Dorsey Sunday night.  But we have a top 5 offense right now despite his odd play calls at times and despite Josh having brain freezes on occasion.  So the question is who do you bring in that would do a better job?  People always want to go where the grass is greener, but many more times than not when you do so the grass is brown.

It's a top offense because of Josh Allen running around and improvising. This offense would be top 5 with my dog randomly choosing the play. He would probably do a better job because he knows not to be in shotgun for short yardage. I tell him all the time 

[Fan in Chicago]

4 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

 

What I find curious is that this particular throw is something that should be accurate 90+% of the time and the catch is maybe a 50/50 yet you are harshly judging Knox while given Allen a pass.  Is Allen a better player at his position than Knox overall?  If you say yes I completely agree, but on THAT Allen deserves the brunt of the blame.  Feeling the need  to pin it all on Knox is weird.  It’s cultish.

The throw was not good, agreed. But Knox should have made that catch. The ball was not thrown away from his direction of motion. Knox is getting heat from many in here, including me, because of his history of the dropsies. He has cut them down but is not a reliable pair of hands. I am certainly more willing to give Diggs the benefit of doubt than to Knox. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Fan in Chicago

[CincyBillsFan]

5 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Lol any criticism of Allen is met with irrational revisionist insanity.  You know who agrees with me that Allen’s throw was the primary culprit on that play?  Not Dorsey’s call, not Knox’s “drop”, not whatever horrifying mistake Davis made on that play….but Allen’s throw?  Josh Allen agrees, that’s who agrees.  Watch his interview after the game.

 

Its ok to admit he’s not perfect and we don’t need 52 more guys to make a 53 man roster.  
 

Allen is the most important player on this team.  There are maybe five QBs you could argue you could swap for and maintain our place.  Personally I would only even consider one.  That doesn’t mean every time he makes a mistake we need to trash a coach or one of his teammates.  It’s a joke and a cult.

Allen would assume responsibility for the Russia/Ukraine war.  To his credit he never throws a teammate or coach under the bus.  And I hope this never changes.

 

When have any of us said Allen was perfect?  That's a scarecrow you build & throw out to discredit those of us fed up with the undeserved shots certain posters take at Allen.

 

I don't think it's trashing players or coaches to ask the question of whether we've assembled the talent needed to fully exploit having a top 3 QB.  I live in Cincinnati and have observed first hand how that organization has built an offense around Burrow.  And as an NFL fan I can see how the Eagles & Chiefs built offensive machines around their good (Hurts) and elite (Mahomes) QB's.  Hell, SF built their offense first in the hopes a QB would show up.

 

 

 

 

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

The problem with most of those is that they're one off deals. You can use them for a game, but then can't come back to them for a while because everyone will prepare for them. I'd much rather see us lean more into motioning for misdirection. We do some of it already, but nowhere near at the clip that the Dolphins or 49ers are.

But even you know the motion is just window dressing...

 

Sure it works vs inferior coached teams ... But don't take the bait ... Keep gap integrity, hands up in the passing lane

 

Of course I would like to see our offense move into the 21st century... But I'm not impressed by all the pre-snap movements... We've all seen it 

 

We are both defensive guys... You know it's window dressing ... Good defenses don't take the bait 

 

But on that note , I would take more  pre snap movement because the NFL seems to struggle with it... Lots of teams are not disciplined 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Buffalo716

[RyanC883]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

I was ready to kill Dorsey Sunday night.  But we have a top 5 offense right now despite his odd play calls at times and despite Josh having brain freezes on occasion.  So the question is who do you bring in that would do a better job?  People always want to go where the grass is greener, but many more times than not when you do so the grass is brown.

 

I get your point.  perhaps let Joe Brady call plays for a few games?  

12 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

The throw was not good, agreed. But Knox should have made that catch. The ball was not thrown away from his direction of motion. Knox is getting heat from many in here, including me, because of his history of the dropsies. He has cut them down but is not a reliable pair of hands. I am certainly more willing to give Diggs the benefit of doubt than to Knox. 

 

Knox seems reliable when open or standing upright, not a large catch radius otherwise. 

[BillsFan130]

Just watched cover 1 breakdown on the offence.

 

Eric Turner was not impressed with Dorsey at all.

 

Gave him credit for scheming up diggs.

But said the spacing was awful at times, and Dorsey needs to do a better job scheming up plays for other players, especially when teams start doubling Diggs.