BADOLBILZ Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 39 minutes ago, PBF81 said: It seems to me that from what I've read, the primary criticism is why the drafted Kincaid if that's all they're going to do, particularly when other needs, like perhaps a blocker that wouldn't require us to have 7 blockers, and maybe only 6, or instead of 6, only 5 at times. Kincaid's on pace for about 400 yards, 0 TDs, and fewer than 7 YPC by season's end. That's going to be tough to justify on why the team believed that needed to trade up for Kincaid in the 1st. Kind of like last season when they traded Moss for Hines because Hines was a dynamic receiver. Then he caught a fraction of the passes that he caught on a per-game basis throughout his career. Those aren't the types of things that inspire confidence. And notice I've taken no side, just putting the facts out. But teams don't draft a receiving TE with limited blocking skills and then say to themselves, we'll be ecstatic if he puts up 25 yards-per-game and can get 6 or 7 YPR, and we don't care if logs any TDs. If McBeane & Co. don't want to be criticized, then it's pretty simple, start making decisions that make sense. Meanwhile, over in Indy, Moss is tearing it up. After this weekend he'll likely lead the AFC in rushing, outperforming Cook. What does that say about McD's coaching and Dorsey's coaching. Nothing positive to be sure. Hey I wish the Bills second option in the passing game didn't have stone hands like Gabriel Davis............but if defense's want to keep allowing Diggs and Davis to be more productive and efficient........and the team keeps averaging 32 per game........I can deal with Dalton Kincaid having more of a normal first half of rookie TE season while he adjusts to the Bills relatively complicated offense. Team really needs to upgrade Davis' position to take their game to another level..........until they do they still have a drive killing weakness that better defense's can exploit. Quote
Dr.Sack Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 Kincaid and Knox are a big reason Allen is leading the league in completion %, I have to believe this is a conscious effort to keep the offensive drives on schedule, and make for more manageable 3rd downs. Up until Thursday night Kelce was averaging around 7 ypr. Not saying Kincaid will ever break out, but he could if they mimic the kinds of routes/options and get in sync with Allen. Quote
PBF81 Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Hey I wish the Bills second option in the passing game didn't have stone hands like Gabriel Davis............but if defense's want to keep allowing Diggs and Davis to be more productive and efficient........and the team keeps averaging 32 per game........I can deal with Dalton Kincaid having more of a normal first half of rookie TE season while he adjusts to the Bills relatively complicated offense. Team really needs to upgrade Davis' position to take their game to another level..........until they do they still have a drive killing weakness that better defense's can exploit. I realize that Davis isn't what many Bills fans want, but he does make big plays, his drops this season are very much in the normal range, and they use him in the way that they use him by design. If McD/Beane wanted a Higgins or Boyd type, they'd get one. And it's hardly as if Davis is overpaid. He's getting less than Shakir, less than Shorter, than Kyle Allen, Murray, Harris, Matekevich, Sherfield, Gilliam and a bunch of others. Honestly, what do people expect from a guy that's not even getting $1M this season. Dude's got 15 TDs & 1st Downs, as many as Cook, Harty, and Knox combined. Fine, he may not be worth $x-million, but for now he's a bargain. He's got nearly a fourth of the team's 1st-Downs, nearly a fourth of the team's passing yards, and over a third of Allen's TD passes. I simply don't get the criticism for a player like that. Most of the players listed do nothing and get paid more. Right now he's on pace for 1,100 yards and 13 TDs, which by last season's rankings would put him around 15th for receiving yards, 2nd for TD catches, and 2nd for YPR. That would be more yards than the #1 WRs of 20 other teams!! What do people want from him as a #2 WR? What, 20 TDs, 2,000 yards? Edited October 15, 2023 by PBF81 1 Quote
TheyCallMeAndy Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 On 10/12/2023 at 12:29 PM, Goin Breakdown said: TE are not Joshes first read. It would seem they are low. We've seen there Kincaid has been wide open often but josh goes to a cover receiver 50 yards down field. It's ok though. Josh has trust for those he is throwing to. It'll all balance out in time. Diggs is always the first read, and should be. TE is often the second read, they just aren’t running very deep routes yet. Quote
BADOLBILZ Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 1 hour ago, PBF81 said: I realize that Davis isn't what many Bills fans want, but he does make big plays, his drops this season are very much in the normal range, and they use him in the way that they use him by design. If McD/Beane wanted a Higgins or Boyd type, they'd get one. And it's hardly as if Davis is overpaid. He's getting less than Shakir, less than Shorter, than Kyle Allen, Murray, Harris, Matekevich, Sherfield, Gilliam and a bunch of others. Honestly, what do people expect from a guy that's not even getting $1M this season. Dude's got 15 TDs & 1st Downs, as many as Cook, Harty, and Knox combined. Fine, he may not be worth $x-million, but for now he's a bargain. He's got nearly a fourth of the team's 1st-Downs, nearly a fourth of the team's passing yards, and over a third of Allen's TD passes. I simply don't get the criticism for a player like that. Most of the players listed do nothing and get paid more. Right now he's on pace for 1,100 yards and 13 TDs, which by last season's rankings would put him around 15th for receiving yards, 2nd for TD catches, and 2nd for YPR. That would be more yards than the #1 WRs of 20 other teams!! What do people want from him as a #2 WR? What, 20 TDs, 2,000 yards? What any Bills fan should want from Gabe Davis is for him to be WR3. It's nothing personal he just isn't on par with the talent of most of the best teams WR2. As I've said.........the Bills have successfully condensed a lot of the defense's they've played this season and opened up the outside receivers for better opportunities..........but Gabe is still dropping passes and balls that come his way are still turning into interceptions too often. The bar at the top of the league is very high for WR2............Devonta Smith and Brandon Aiyuk with the top 2 SB contenders of the NFC.........Tee Higgins and Jaylen Waddle are WR2 for 2 of the 3 teams in the AFC that are most likely to keep the Bills out of the SB. People want to say "well look at what the Chiefs are doing"............well, they are playing with house money so they can experiment.........but more importantly Josh Allen is not Patrick Mahomes. They are just different kinds of QB. Mahomes is a point guard/ shortstop playing QB. He is built to distribute the football quickly and accurately from any angle without concern about mechanics. Allen is near equally great in his own ways.........but he's not a guy who you want throwing no-look passes off one foot. He doesn't have the same accuracy and ball placement and timing on shorter throws/screens etc.. He's worked at it but it's not natural to him. He's built to be a traditional under center, drop back/play action guy........and then really kill teams with throws to areas of the field that most can't even reach........and occasionally burn them with huge runs. That skillset Allen has is the only reason Gabe Davis is even a talking point. There are teams Gabe couldn't even play for. He couldn't even make the Miami Dolphins roster. He just doesn't get open quickly enough or catch contested passes well enough to be a good player in some offense's. He's a scheme fit for teams that can protect the QB well enough to hold the ball for 3-5 seconds enough times for Gabe to get 3-4 good looks per game. Which is a small list of teams. 3 Quote
Rockinon Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 I think what a lot of people are missing is that Josh has not been running for his life this year. The pass protection has markedly improved. A lot of that is the usage of the TEs. I believe, the TE production in the pass game will increase over the season. The type of offense is different and the way defenses play us is changing as well. People can poo-poo the coaching but the answer isn't as black and white as many here believe. I believe the offense is figuring some things out and I believe there will be some incredible production as the season progresses. It doesn't happen over night. Josh has a lot of new weapons and it takes time to gain trust. I think we have seen the ball going to a lot of new players. Some good, some not so good. Eventually, some of them will become stars on this team. I also think the coaching for the offensive line is very good and that there is an effort to establish a run game. Not as a means to take away from the pass game but as a way to improve it. It is a fact that the run can set up the pass, just as the pass can set up the run. Again, we are working with some new pieces. New OLmen, new RBs. New TE. There has been some good, some not so good. The production of the offensive coaching is much more than just calling the right play. It's also figuring out who the stars are and how they fit into this offense. I am leaning toward thinking that the offense is on the verge of a break out. I've seen some signs of it. Not everything is going as planned, but it never does. Soon though, we are going to see some offensive players besides Diggs, begin to shine. Quote
PBF81 Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: What any Bills fan should want from Gabe Davis is for him to be WR3. It's nothing personal he just isn't on par with the talent of most of the best teams WR2. Here's where you and others lose me with this. You say that, but he puts up notably better numbers than most of the best teams WR2s. I've already posted that data, I can put it up again if you like. TDs are TDs. 1st Downs are 1st Downs. Who cares how he does it. I don't get it. But in short, the argument implicitly then becomes, yeah, he's putting up good numbers, but we don't like the way he's doing it, so he needs to go. I'm having difficulty seeing where that even makes a modicum of sense. 10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: As I've said.........the Bills have successfully condensed a lot of the defense's they've played this season and opened up the outside receivers for better opportunities..........but Gabe is still dropping passes and balls that come his way are still turning into interceptions too often. How are we measuring these "dropped passes"? Because there appear to be two standards. One for Davis and one for the rest of the receivers on the team and around the league. Are we using official stats? If so, then Davis has two drops and ranks behind Calvin Ridley, Tee Higgins, and Mike Evans in Drop %. He also ranks behind Knox who's 2nd in the league in Drop% with 3, on two-thirds or so as many targets. Why isn't everyone saying the same thing about him. Instead, his $13M contract was applauded by most here. Again, I don't get it. 10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: The bar at the top of the league is very high for WR2............Devonta Smith and Brandon Aiyuk with the top 2 SB contenders of the NFC.........Tee Higgins and Jaylen Waddle are WR2 for 2 of the 3 teams in the AFC that are most likely to keep the Bills out of the SB. I don't think that bar is as high as you think it is. But my question to you is this then, of all of the WR2s in the entirely league, that's 32 of 'em, which ones do you think are better than Davis at logging 1st-Downs and TDs? Let's start there. I've already done that exercise so I have my answer. 10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: People want to say "well look at what the Chiefs are doing"............well, they are playing with house money so they can experiment.........but more importantly Josh Allen is not Patrick Mahomes. They are just different kinds of QB. Mahomes is a point guard/ shortstop playing QB. He is built to distribute the football quickly and accurately from any angle without concern about mechanics. Allen is near equally great in his own ways.........but he's not a guy who you want throwing no-look passes off one foot. He doesn't have the same accuracy and ball placement and timing on shorter throws/screens etc.. He's worked at it but it's not natural to him. He's built to be a traditional under center, drop back/play action guy........and then really kill teams with throws to areas of the field that most can't even reach........and occasionally burn them with huge runs. Not much disagreement with any of that. Well stated in fact! 10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: That skillset Allen has is the only reason Gabe Davis is even a talking point. There are teams Gabe couldn't even play for. He couldn't even make the Miami Dolphins roster. He just doesn't get open quickly enough or catch contested passes well enough to be a good player in some offense's. He's a scheme fit for teams that can protect the QB well enough to hold the ball for 3-5 seconds enough times for Gabe to get 3-4 good looks per game. Which is a small list of teams. But that's the point. Davis fits in with what they're trying to do on offense. I understand that Davis isn't that WR with the incredible route tree, and far from a slot type guy, but he is what he is, and he delivers big plays, more often than not when they're needed. I thought I just read that he's the only WR in the league right now to have scored a TD in the last four straight games. He's averaged 72 YPG over the past four weeks. He's logged 13 1st-Downs in those four games. Show me another player on our team that's done that. Cook has teh same 13 1st-Downs, but both rushing and receiving, more YFS which makes sense, but only 1 TD despite all that. I could easily argue that Cook's the 2-down RB that he is and also isn't a typical RB1. Why is no one claiming that in the same vein? Just sayin'. Diggs has done it with 18 1st-Downs (5 more), 418 Yards (130 more), and the same 4 TDs, but he's also getting paid over 24x as much. For the price, IMO there isn't a better player on the team on a production-for-dollar comp than Davis at less than $1M/season. Now what he gets going forward is a different matter. But if we let him walk, given all of our other needs in the Draft, they'd better have someone to fill in and make up that production. Last season Davis was responsible for approximately 10% of the team's 1st-Downs and for 14% of the team's TD. That's a lot to fail to backfill for. Again, wishing and hoping for something better can often come back to bite you in the arseky. Extending him sooner would save the team a ton of money. Also, here's the thing, people at large are generally loathe to criticize McBeane here, but Davis is clearly a part of this mysterious ill-defined (really undefined) "Process." So if there are criticisms, why aren't they at McBeane? 1 Quote
BADOLBILZ Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 42 minutes ago, PBF81 said: Here's where you and others lose me with this. You say that, but he puts up notably better numbers than most of the best teams WR2s. I've already posted that data, I can put it up again if you like. TDs are TDs. 1st Downs are 1st Downs. Who cares how he does it. I don't get it. But in short, the argument implicitly then becomes, yeah, he's putting up good numbers, but we don't like the way he's doing it, so he needs to go. I'm having difficulty seeing where that even makes a modicum of sense. How are we measuring these "dropped passes"? Because there appear to be two standards. One for Davis and one for the rest of the receivers on the team and around the league. Are we using official stats? If so, then Davis has two drops and ranks behind Calvin Ridley, Tee Higgins, and Mike Evans in Drop %. He also ranks behind Knox who's 2nd in the league in Drop% with 3, on two-thirds or so as many targets. Why isn't everyone saying the same thing about him. Instead, his $13M contract was applauded by most here. Again, I don't get it. I don't think that bar is as high as you think it is. But my question to you is this then, of all of the WR2s in the entirely league, that's 32 of 'em, which ones do you think are better than Davis at logging 1st-Downs and TDs? Let's start there. I've already done that exercise so I have my answer. Not much disagreement with any of that. Well stated in fact! But that's the point. Davis fits in with what they're trying to do on offense. I understand that Davis isn't that WR with the incredible route tree, and far from a slot type guy, but he is what he is, and he delivers big plays, more often than not when they're needed. I thought I just read that he's the only WR in the league right now to have scored a TD in the last four straight games. He's averaged 72 YPG over the past four weeks. He's logged 13 1st-Downs in those four games. Show me another player on our team that's done that. Cook has teh same 13 1st-Downs, but both rushing and receiving, more YFS which makes sense, but only 1 TD despite all that. I could easily argue that Cook's the 2-down RB that he is and also isn't a typical RB1. Why is no one claiming that in the same vein? Just sayin'. Diggs has done it with 18 1st-Downs (5 more), 418 Yards (130 more), and the same 4 TDs, but he's also getting paid over 24x as much. For the price, IMO there isn't a better player on the team on a production-for-dollar comp than Davis at less than $1M/season. Now what he gets going forward is a different matter. But if we let him walk, given all of our other needs in the Draft, they'd better have someone to fill in and make up that production. Last season Davis was responsible for approximately 10% of the team's 1st-Downs and for 14% of the team's TD. That's a lot to fail to backfill for. Again, wishing and hoping for something better can often come back to bite you in the arseky. Extending him sooner would save the team a ton of money. Also, here's the thing, people at large are generally loathe to criticize McBeane here, but Davis is clearly a part of this mysterious ill-defined (really undefined) "Process." So if there are criticisms, why aren't they at McBeane? 1) There are more teams with a more talented WR2 options than Gabe Davis than there aren't. Guys who would be more consistent and efficient in the Bills system than Gabe. There are teams with more talented 3rd options than Gabe as the Bills 2nd option. That's the reality. There has been a significant influx of receiving talent since 2017-2018. If you are just looking at the counting stats like yards and TD's you are excluding the fact that Josh Allen is his QB and he gets fed. But take a guy like Jahan Dotson for instance........he's got like 100 yards receiving this season on a bad Washington team as the 3rd option.........but he is a far better player than Gabe. This is where people get in the weeds about Davis.........his counting numbers are grossly inflated because there aren't better options in Buffalo. What's telling are his efficiency numbers over the course of years.........things like catch %, drop %, INT's thrown when he's targeted and passer rating when targeted. Those were all TERRIBLE last year. He's been a better this year but it's a contract year(see Tremaine Edmunds 2022 bump) and offensive changes have given him a bump..........the underlying issues are still there as he continues to kill drives with pics thrown his way and inexcusable drops. 3) Like I said.......fans who don't follow the rest of the league ver closely see Davis' bulk stats and say how is that not a top WR2? The bulk stats don't come close to telling the story. Davis would be a much better fit as WR3 because the throws required to utilize him are difficult...........Allen makes them look much easier than most QB's.........but the second option in an offense should be a player who can regularly keep your offense on schedule. Gabe can't do that. He is still going to drop most anything that's tight window or contested so the quick game is pretty much out. They actually tested him out on the first Josh Allen play of preseason with a quick slant and he dropped it and I think that re-affirmed what they had seen before........dude just can't help you in the quick game at all. 1 Quote
PBF81 Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: 1) There are more teams with a more talented WR2 options than Gabe Davis than there aren't. Guys who would be more consistent and efficient in the Bills system than Gabe. There are teams with more talented 3rd options than Gabe as the Bills 2nd option. That's the reality. There has been a significant influx of receiving talent since 2017-2018. If you are just looking at the counting stats like yards and TD's you are excluding the fact that Josh Allen is his QB and he gets fed. But take a guy like Jahan Dotson for instance........he's got like 100 yards receiving this season on a bad Washington team as the 3rd option.........but he is a far better player than Gabe. This is where people get in the weeds about Davis.........his counting numbers are grossly inflated because there aren't better options in Buffalo. What's telling are his efficiency numbers over the course of years.........things like catch %, drop %, INT's thrown when he's targeted and passer rating when targeted. Those were all TERRIBLE last year. He's been a better this year but it's a contract year(see Tremaine Edmunds 2022 bump) and offensive changes have given him a bump..........the underlying issues are still there as he continues to kill drives with pics thrown his way and inexcusable drops. Some of those are fair points. But several points. Given that, my first response, and not trying to be argumentative, but take it up with Beane. This is the team they've wanted six seasons (Beane) in. Secondly, his drops were only a signifiant issue last season. In his other seasons and overall, he's been within a reasonable range. But he was also injured last season. Other players seem to get a little lattitude when evaluating them with injuries, but not Davis for some reason. Also, he's easily been the most consistent and biggest force in he playoffs for us over the past three seasons, on par with Diggs in that way, and his drops in the playoffs have generally been insignificant. The "13-Seconds" game is a blowout for KC if not for Davis. Thirdly, right now he's on pace for 1,100 and 13 TDs. We'll see how that develops, but the whole "feeding Allen" thing is fine, but at the end of the day, it's a major uphill battle to suggest that another style of WR2 would yield better results, if in fact that came to pass. In short, there is merit to what you say, but it's also very hypothetical. 30 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: 3) Like I said.......fans who don't follow the rest of the league ver closely see Davis' bulk stats and say how is that not a top WR2? The bulk stats don't come close to telling the story. Davis would be a much better fit as WR3 because the throws required to utilize him are difficult...........Allen makes them look much easier than most QB's.........but the second option in an offense should be a player who can regularly keep your offense on schedule. Gabe can't do that. He is still going to drop most anything that's tight window or contested so the quick game is pretty much out. They actually tested him out on the first Josh Allen play of preseason with a quick slant and he dropped it and I think that re-affirmed what they had seen before........dude just can't help you in the quick game at all. I completely disagree with that bolded part. He's already made a few outstanding grabs in traffic or blanketed by coverage this season. Let's see how the season plays out. I wish I could get A22, damned DAZN. I'd like to see every one of his routes. Either way, for the sake of argument, suppose that's all true, it's also going to necessitate us getting a WR like that. What's Beane's track record for that? What, we gonna pay $15M/season for one? Value has to play into this somewhat particularly since we have a lot of dead money hanging out there now. Von Miller, While, Poyer, Knox now seemingly, etc. Again though, name names, but I'm curious which of all the other WR2s in the league, you think are better. I'll list them, as they presently stand, when I have time. Edited October 15, 2023 by PBF81 Quote
3rdand12 Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 16 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said: Diggs is always the first read, and should be. TE is often the second read, they just aren’t running very deep routes yet. One of them should be. We already see he can track the ball ! 15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: What any Bills fan should want from Gabe Davis is for him to be WR3. It's nothing personal he just isn't on par with the talent of most of the best teams WR2. As I've said.........the Bills have successfully condensed a lot of the defense's they've played this season and opened up the outside receivers for better opportunities..........but Gabe is still dropping passes and balls that come his way are still turning into interceptions too often. The bar at the top of the league is very high for WR2............Devonta Smith and Brandon Aiyuk with the top 2 SB contenders of the NFC.........Tee Higgins and Jaylen Waddle are WR2 for 2 of the 3 teams in the AFC that are most likely to keep the Bills out of the SB. People want to say "well look at what the Chiefs are doing"............well, they are playing with house money so they can experiment.........but more importantly Josh Allen is not Patrick Mahomes. They are just different kinds of QB. Mahomes is a point guard/ shortstop playing QB. He is built to distribute the football quickly and accurately from any angle without concern about mechanics. Allen is near equally great in his own ways.........but he's not a guy who you want throwing no-look passes off one foot. He doesn't have the same accuracy and ball placement and timing on shorter throws/screens etc.. He's worked at it but it's not natural to him. He's built to be a traditional under center, drop back/play action guy........and then really kill teams with throws to areas of the field that most can't even reach........and occasionally burn them with huge runs. That skillset Allen has is the only reason Gabe Davis is even a talking point. There are teams Gabe couldn't even play for. He couldn't even make the Miami Dolphins roster. He just doesn't get open quickly enough or catch contested passes well enough to be a good player in some offense's. He's a scheme fit for teams that can protect the QB well enough to hold the ball for 3-5 seconds enough times for Gabe to get 3-4 good looks per game. Which is a small list of teams. Then lets get him under center doing 3 and 5 step drops with PA. and offer him the route running the can exploit his skillset Quote
3rdand12 Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 Good dialogue here and some fine banter indeed ! Quote
Don Otreply Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 On 10/12/2023 at 12:29 PM, Goin Breakdown said: TE are not Joshes first read. It would seem they are low. We've seen there Kincaid has been wide open often but josh goes to a cover receiver 50 yards down field. It's ok though. Josh has trust for those he is throwing to. It'll all balance out in time. Taking the easy pass to an open receiver is the smart / correct choice almost always, move the chains and keep the opposing offense off the field, and wear down the opposing defense. Josh has still not fully grasped why he should be doing this imo. It may all even out over a season, but with two stinker games losses already, Dorsey and Josh need to sharpen their combined skills if we are going to see a full measure of success. GO BILLS!!! 1 Quote
Goin Breakdown Posted October 15, 2023 Posted October 15, 2023 Just now, Don Otreply said: Taking the easy pass to an open receiver is the smart / correct choice almost always, move the chains and keep the opposing offense off the field, and wear down the opposing defense. Josh has still not fully grasped why he should be doing this imo. It may all even out over a season, but with two stinker games losses already, Dorsey and Josh need to sharpen their combined skills if we are going to see a full measure of success. GO BILLS!!! I agree man. Go Bills 1 Quote
ganesh Posted October 16, 2023 Posted October 16, 2023 On 10/12/2023 at 9:59 PM, Goin Breakdown said: TE are not Joshes first read. It would seem they are low. We've seen there Kincaid has been wide open often but josh goes to a cover receiver 50 yards down field. It's ok though. Josh has trust for those he is throwing to. It'll all balance out in time. Agreed He has been going to the checkdown RB in Cook and Murray more often. Go Bills ! Quote
Paup 1995MVP Posted October 22, 2023 Posted October 22, 2023 On 10/12/2023 at 2:49 PM, LeGOATski said: I agree the play calling is often poor, but your whining makes it sound like they have one of the worst offenses in the league. It is in fact a modern passing scheme that puts up great numbers and they've had a more balanced attack this year with the running game. However, outside of one game this year, I don't think Dorsey calls a good game. He doesn't set up plays well, like those swings and screens, and doesn't have a good rhythm. I am not whining clown. The offense was ***** 3 out of 6 games this year. And you are agreeing with me. Quote
LeGOATski Posted October 22, 2023 Posted October 22, 2023 4 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said: I am not whining clown. The offense was ***** 3 out of 6 games this year. And you are agreeing with me. You're clearly very emotional Quote
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