The right mix between air and ground

[Italian Bills]

Based on the personal we have, in your opinion, what would have to be the right percentage of the total offensive plays between the pass game and run game ? 
 

I know that every game can force you to change your plan, but in general ? 
 

Do you think that this Bills team would be good for a 65/35 split between the two ways where 65 % is dedicated at the offense ?

 

I always said that when the Bills run over the 100 yards, we win. 
 

Jets game: Bills 97 - L

Raiders game: Bills 183 - W

Commanders: Bills 168 - W

Phins game: Bills 104 - W

Jaguars game: Bills 29 - L

 

Just a case ? Don’t think so. 
 

We desperately need our ground yards to open up the game on the air. 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Italian Bills

[Billzgobowlin]

He don't have the right starting back to control the ground game.  That said we have to keep the pass defense somewhat honest.  40% is my thought

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, Italian Bills said:

Based on the personal we have, in your opinion, what would have to be the right percentage of the total offensive plays between the pass game and run game ? 
 

I know that every game can force you to change your plan, but in general ? 
 

Do you think that this Bills team would be good for a 65/35 split between the two ways where 65 % is dedicated at the offense ?

 

I always said that when the Bills run over the 100 yards, we win. 
 

Jets game: Bills 97 - L

Raiders game: Bills 183 - W

Commanders: Bills 168 - W

Phins game: Bills 104 - W

Jaguars game: Bills 29 - L

 

Just a case ? Don’t think so. 
 

We desperately need our ground yards to open up the game on the air. 

 

 

 

Here we go again.  Of course you need to run the ball, but keeping the defense honest & guessing is part of the scheme too.

 

Every time after a loss, there invariably are complaints about running the football.

 

The Bills lost to Jax because they didn't adapt to what Jax was doing on defense when you have one of the top two QB's in football.  Simple as that. 

 

When I, just a football "fan" can tell you when the Bills are running the football (especially early in the game), you know the defense knows it too and pins their ears back.

 

Look at the first 16 plays the Bills ran.  I bet they were scripted and the Bills had manageable second & third downs and had bad play calls (or drops).  In particular second down first series pass to Diggs short of the marker on a managable down where a two yard pass was just plain stupid.  Second possession again a run on first down that everyone knew was coming for -1 and then two 5 yard passes.  Third possession trying to establish the run still and can't convert on third down (catchable ball).  Fourth another second & 1 and a 6 yard loss on another run.  Piss poor play calling imo. 

 

  https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay/_/gameId/401547228

 

Want a running game?  Let Josh run.....

[Italian Bills]

21 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Here we go again.  Of course you need to run the ball, but keeping the defense honest & guessing is part of the scheme too.

 

Every time after a loss, there invariably are complaints about running the football.

 

The Bills lost to Jax because they didn't adapt to what Jax was doing on defense when you have one of the top two QB's in football.  Simple as that. 

 

When I, just a football "fan" can tell you when the Bills are running the football (especially early in the game), you know the defense knows it too and pins their ears back.

 

Look at the first 16 plays the Bills ran.  I bet they were scripted and the Bills had manageable second & third downs and had bad play calls (or drops).  In particular second down first series pass to Diggs short of the marker on a managable down where a two yard pass was just plain stupid.  Second possession again a run on first down that everyone knew was coming for -1 and then two 5 yard passes.  Third possession trying to establish the run still and can't convert on third down (catchable ball).  Fourth another second & 1 and a 6 yard loss on another run.  Piss poor play calling imo. 

 

  https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay/_/gameId/401547228

 

Want a running game?  Let Josh run.....

So what would be the right way to establish a productive running game ? With what plays ? In what situations ? 
 

For what i can see we run almost exclusively inside routes, almost never outside the LOS, many teams do that with great results. 
 

Why is that ? 

[Billsfan1972]

20 minutes ago, Italian Bills said:

So what would be the right way to establish a productive running game ? With what plays ? In what situations ? 
 

For what i can see we run almost exclusively inside routes, almost never outside the LOS, many teams do that with great results. 
 

Why is that ? 

I'm not an expert.  What I know is the Bills best weapon is #17, & they still too often use him incorrectly.  

 

As said above, how many passes those first four possessions were downfield, beyond the first down market or thrown with room to run (one to Cook, who dropped it)?  

[Shortchaz]

I think McDermott said it best at halftime on Sunday, need to avoid getting behind the chains on first and second down. An incompletion or run for no gain is one thing but taking a tackle for loss on a running play (or sack) is arguably as detrimental as a holding penalty in that you take negative yards AND lose the down. 
 

the bills need to identify which plays they run that have a high probability (relative) of taking negative yardage (e.g. running from shotgun) and do something else. I.e. be as risk adverse in the running game as they want josh to be in the passing game. 
 

the rushing yards are one metric but 3rd down conversion is the better metric imo. A more effective running game, not necessarily more runs keeps third downs more manageable. 

 

[Billsfan1972]

Just now, Shortchaz said:

I think McDermott said it best at halftime on Sunday, need to avoid getting behind the chains on first and second down. An incompletion or run for no gain is one thing but taking a tackle for loss on a running play (or sack) is arguably as detrimental as a holding penalty in that you take negative yards AND lose the down. 
 

the bills need to identify which plays they run that have a high probability (relative) of taking negative yardage (e.g. running from shotgun) and do something else. I.e. be as risk adverse in the running game as they want josh to be in the passing game. 
 

the rushing yards are one metric but 3rd down conversion is the better metric imo. A more effective running game, not necessarily more runs keeps third downs more manageable. 

 

Eh to go Sherlock. 

 

Why does McD say something so assisnine, when basically every play called the past 4 weeks early in the game have been exactly those plays????  They generally are not incompletions as Josh is completing 75%+ of passes, but they are runs and short passes not beyond the chains. 

 

I have complete confidence that Josh can complete 1 of 3 passes beyond 10 yards (or run for the first down). 

 

McD, don't say it unless you mean it.     

[Wizard]

As has been mentioned, playaction passes and rollouts are great ways of establish the running game and vice versa.

 

Using Murray and Harris more often to establish that the Bills can pound the rock a bit opens up the offense. 

 

Utilizing more of the field outside the hash marks also keeps defenses more honest in coverages which opens up some space for runs.

 

And, of course, not running delayed draw plays and in loving that third option (Kincaid in mid passing game, Cook on short screens, Sherfield or Harty on a jet sweep can open up the passing game.

 

If the Bills average 400 yards of offense, an ideal split would be 270 yards passing and 130 yards running.

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Here we go again.  Of course you need to run the ball, but keeping the defense honest & guessing is part of the scheme too.

 

Every time after a loss, there invariably are complaints about running the football.

 

The Bills lost to Jax because they didn't adapt to what Jax was doing on defense when you have one of the top two QB's in football.  Simple as that. 

 

When I, just a football "fan" can tell you when the Bills are running the football (especially early in the game), you know the defense knows it too and pins their ears back.

 

Look at the first 16 plays the Bills ran.  I bet they were scripted and the Bills had manageable second & third downs and had bad play calls (or drops).  In particular second down first series pass to Diggs short of the marker on a managable down where a two yard pass was just plain stupid.  Second possession again a run on first down that everyone knew was coming for -1 and then two 5 yard passes.  Third possession trying to establish the run still and can't convert on third down (catchable ball).  Fourth another second & 1 and a 6 yard loss on another run.  Piss poor play calling imo. 

 

  https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay/_/gameId/401547228

 

Want a running game?  Let Josh run.....

I'm sure you were delighted on Sunday though.  Josh threw for the over 300 yards you crave, and still lost.  Which you have said you'd prefer over him throwing for less and winning.

 

Now to the run game.  Dorsey was not creative enough on Sunday and/or Josh checked down too much to run plays that weren't working.   The repeated delays to Cook weren't working and we kept calling them.  They had a lot of folks in the box, which to me says use play action to draw guys in then hit passes behind them to get them out of the box.  Then you can run more effectively.  But for some reason we abandoned play action, even though Josh's stats in play action are great.   I also would have been looking at running Murray or Harris more early on.  Both Torrence and Brown are effective run blockers; put a TE over there and run the ball to that side.

[Billsfan1972]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

I'm sure you were delighted on Sunday though.  Josh threw for the over 300 yards you crave, and still lost.  Which you have said you'd prefer over him throwing for less and winning.

 

Now to the run game.  Dorsey was not creative enough on Sunday and/or Josh checked down too much to run plays that weren't working.   The repeated delays to Cook weren't working and we kept calling them.  They had a lot of folks in the box, which to me says use play action to draw guys in then hit passes behind them to get them out of the box.  Then you can run more effectively.  But for some reason we abandoned play action, even though Josh's stats in play action are great.   I also would have been looking at running Murray or Harris more early on.  Both Torrence and Brown are effective run blockers; put a TE over there and run the ball to that side.

Just stop it will you.😡

 

The early play calling has been the same in every game, with little play action or throws down the field.  

 

Respond to what I wrote instead of being a jackass.

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Just stop it will you.😡

 

The early play calling has been the same in every game, with little play action or throws down the field.  

 

Respond to what I wrote instead of being a jackass.

I did.  I talked about that there was little play action, and what they needed to do with the run game.  And I'll continue to bring up the fact that you specifically stated you'd prefer the Bills to lose so long as they play what you believe to be exciting football.  And I'll continue to do that because a fan of a team never roots for their team to lose.  When are you going to acknowledge that you were wrong?

[BillsFan692]

5 hours ago, Italian Bills said:

Based on the personal we have, in your opinion, what would have to be the right percentage of the total offensive plays between the pass game and run game ? 
 

I know that every game can force you to change your plan, but in general ? 
 

Do you think that this Bills team would be good for a 65/35 split between the two ways where 65 % is dedicated at the offense ?

 

I always said that when the Bills run over the 100 yards, we win. 
 

Jets game: Bills 97 - L

Raiders game: Bills 183 - W

Commanders: Bills 168 - W

Phins game: Bills 104 - W

Jaguars game: Bills 29 - L

 

Just a case ? Don’t think so. 
 

We desperately need our ground yards to open up the game on the air. 

 

 

 

We lost this most recent game because we refuse to give up on the run when it clearly was not happening with a 7 man box or whatever.

Whether or not we should run or pass, or how 'balanced' our attack should be should not be something that is pre-determined at the start of the season. It should change game to game based on what the opponent is putting on the field to stop you. Take what they give you. If it's passing, you take it, if it's running you take it. That is what I want. A dynamic and adaptable offense that can beat you 10 different ways. 

Seems like what we have is the 'predetermined' we are going to do XYZ this season and not the game-to-game adjustments that tend to keep defense coordinators off balance.

Edited October 11, 2023 by BillsFan692

[Royale with Cheese]

34 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Eh to go Sherlock. 

 

Why does McD say something so assisnine, when basically every play called the past 4 weeks early in the game have been exactly those plays????  They generally are not incompletions as Josh is completing 75%+ of passes, but they are runs and short passes not beyond the chains. 

 

I have complete confidence that Josh can complete 1 of 3 passes beyond 10 yards (or run for the first down). 

 

McD, don't say it unless you mean it.     

Aren't you the guy that the concept of TOP is too complicated?  

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

I did.  I talked about that there was little play action, and what they needed to do with the run game.  And I'll continue to bring up the fact that you specifically stated you'd prefer the Bills to lose so long as they play what you believe to be exciting football.  And I'll continue to do that because a fan of a team never roots for their team to lose.  When are you going to acknowledge that you were wrong?

The Bills went McD's first 48 games without a 300 yard passing game, which is unheard of in modern football and 100% I blame McD of his philosophy.  No other team went a year without one (yes probably the 2022 Bears).

 

He can say whatever he wants and as said above the proof is in the pudding as the game plan every game coming out has been to try and establish inside running and short passes.  It was to me, the reason they lost Sunday.   

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

Aren't you the guy that the concept of TOP is too complicated?  

You can control the clock completing passes too?  Also TOP is due to the defense not getting off the field.  Do you not get that?  

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The Bills went McD's first 48 games without a 300 yard passing game, which is unheard of in modern football and 100% I blame McD of his philosophy.  No other team went a year without one (yes probably the 2022 Bears).

 

He can say whatever he wants and as said above the proof is in the pudding as the game plan every game coming out has been to try and establish inside running and short passes.  It was to me, the reason they lost Sunday.   

 

LOL

Tyrod Taylor in his entire career has 1 - 300 yard passing game.  Just one.

 

He has played in 85 games and 6 different teams and he has 1 - 300 yard passing game. 

 

So his entire career, he hasn't been able to throw the ball and McDermott was to blame?  McDermott is to blame for when Tyrod couldn't do it with the Giants, Ravens, Browns, Chargers, Texans and Giants because of McDermott?

 

[Italian Bills]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I'm not an expert.  What I know is the Bills best weapon is #17, & they still too often use him incorrectly.  

 

As said above, how many passes those first four possessions were downfield, beyond the first down market or thrown with room to run (one to Cook, who dropped it)?  

Of course something have to

be fixed and fixed now, not in 4/5 weeks.

 

I’m sure we have the players to create 35/40 points a game, nothing less than what SF is doing eith a QB named Brock Purdy, with all the credit is no JOSH ALLEN. 

[oldmanfan]

12 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The Bills went McD's first 48 games without a 300 yard passing game, which is unheard of in modern football and 100% I blame McD of his philosophy.  No other team went a year without one (yes probably the 2022 Bears).

 

He can say whatever he wants and as said above the proof is in the pudding as the game plan every game coming out has been to try and establish inside running and short passes.  It was to me, the reason they lost Sunday.   

You can control the clock completing passes too?  Also TOP is due to the defense not getting off the field.  Do you not get that?  

So you still would prefer the Bills lose as long as they pass more.  That is just sad, and to me is not what a fan of a team would want.

[Billsfan1972]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

LOL

Tyrod Taylor in his entire career has 1 - 300 yard passing game.  Just one.

 

He has played in 85 games and 6 different teams and he has 1 - 300 yard passing game. 

 

So his entire career, he hasn't been able to throw the ball and McDermott was to blame?  McDermott is to blame for when Tyrod couldn't do it with the Giants, Ravens, Browns, Chargers, Texans and Giants because of McDermott?

 

The Bills had two 300 yard games in 2016 (before McD the savour arrived).  They ranked 29th, 30th & 24th in offense in his first three years.

 

Yea I really miss those years when the Bills were at the bottom of the league in offense.   

[Royale with Cheese]

10 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The Bills went McD's first 48 games without a 300 yard passing game, which is unheard of in modern football and 100% I blame McD of his philosophy.  No other team went a year without one (yes probably the 2022 Bears).

 

He can say whatever he wants and as said above the proof is in the pudding as the game plan every game coming out has been to try and establish inside running and short passes.  It was to me, the reason they lost Sunday.   

You can control the clock completing passes too?  Also TOP is due to the defense not getting off the field.  Do you not get that?  

 

LOL

 

Here's you being firm that it's on defense.  You were blasted (like usual) about these posts.

The Bills punting 6 out of their 7 possessions, you wouldn't acknowledge.  Its just because of the defense lol.

 

On 10/9/2023 at 4:28 PM, Billsfan1972 said:

No TOP is due to the defence not getting a stop and allowing long drives.  I've already said I think Dorsey needs to unleash Allen and was obvious the dinks and dunks weren't working.  

 

[Italian Bills]

48 minutes ago, Wizard said:

As has been mentioned, playaction passes and rollouts are great ways of establish the running game and vice versa.

 

Using Murray and Harris more often to establish that the Bills can pound the rock a bit opens up the offense. 

 

Utilizing more of the field outside the hash marks also keeps defenses more honest in coverages which opens up some space for runs.

 

And, of course, not running delayed draw plays and in loving that third option (Kincaid in mid passing game, Cook on short screens, Sherfield or Harty on a jet sweep can open up the passing game.

 

If the Bills average 400 yards of offense, an ideal split would be 270 yards passing and 130 yards running.

Agree and believe me, the problem is to find a way to generate 100+ yards on the ground, bacause through the air we can have from 250 up every single game