All-22 analysis of Bills/Jags

[finn]

6 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

At some point, if the have to constantly protect Brown with a TE then the 12 personnel really isn't all that dynamic from a passing point of view. It really doesn't stress a defense like it's supposed to. 

You got to wonder if Anderson, the backup, is actually worse than Brown. Brown's problems with pass-pro appear to be holding back the entire offense. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

7 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

It's not like the Bills opponents have been juggernauts. Jets D is the only good D they have faced. Jags are middling, Wash appears bad, Raiders stink, and Miami's isn't good with no Ramsey and Philips. 

 

At some point, if the have to constantly protect Brown with a TE then the 12 personnel really isn't all that dynamic from a passing point of view. It really doesn't stress a defense like it's supposed to. 

I think you misunderstand…I did not say their defenses overall were juggernauts.  They have been loaded with quality pass rushers though.  And if a defenses strength is pass rushers and not much else, you’d be crazy not to chip with TEs it just doesn’t make sense not to do that.  You shorten one route to buy your qb time to expose a ton of problems in the secondary.

 

idk how they’ll finish but the jags played a pretty much perfect defensive game on Sunday. I think they’re more than likely top 10 in defensive DVOA.  

 

I guess that final point depends on how you look at it. 12 personnel gives them an unparalleled way to give their RT help in a tough matchup imo, but if you’re only looking for passing yards for some reason and not wins then that changes the equation.  There are teams like kc where the big time pass rusher plays inside where our more competent players are and I think you’ll see more of the routes out of the TEs that you’re looking for.  
 

this board is pretty funny with everyone banging the drum on three separate issues which have a single solution to fix all of them but people still complain when we do the thing that fixes all of them 🤣. People have been calling for a reliable Beasley-esque slot guy that can catch the tough underneath throws in traffic, help for Spencer brown, and a weapon that takes some attention away from diggs and Kincaid has proven capable of doing all of those things so far 

 

despite the jags defense having a whale of a game and all the injuries and the scheduling etc we were a few execution issues away from winning comfortably.  
 

it gets so frustrating in here after a loss 😂. Dorsey getting blamed because what he was doing wasn’t ‘clever’ it didn’t have to be clever it just had to be properly executed and it wasn’t.   Peoples answer to drives blowing up because players are dropping wide open passes in the middle of the field and the oline getting blown up is to make the offense more complicated and send our tight ends out on deeper, longer developing routes? Just doesn’t make sense to me 

simultaneously saying oh sugar high josh is back trying to do too much and will lose the game then turning it around and criticizing him for taking checkdowns when the pocket is collapsing doesn’t make sense to me 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[78thealltimegreat]

11 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

So Diggs open twice deep, under-thrown twice neither resulted in scores, both should be TDs. That the game right there. 

Not really one teams leading rusher had 126 yards the other teams had 23 and it was their quarterback wanna guess which team was which? 

[BillsVet]

14 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

We need an overhaul of the entire approach on offense, from the roster allocation strategy to the coaching.  I am convinced.

 

Absolutely.  I had expectations this would have improved when Josh demonstrated he could be a franchise QB, but little has changed.    

 

This season it seems the offensive improvement was based on better backs, a rookie TE, and flyers on 2 cheap UFA receivers.  Not going to get it done for a team with SB aspirations.  And this happened in the wake of 2 disappointing playoff exits against teams with better offenses.  

 

Maybe they swing a deal for a top WR and move Davis to WR3.  But given the HC's pedigree, I don't see it happening.    

[VaMilBill]

6 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Absolutely.  I had expectations this would have improved when Josh demonstrated he could be a franchise QB, but little has changed.    

 

This season it seems the offensive improvement was based on better backs, a rookie TE, and flyers on 2 cheap UFA receivers.  Not going to get it done for a team with SB aspirations.  And this happened in the wake of 2 disappointing playoff exits against teams with better offenses.  

 

Maybe they swing a deal for a top WR and move Davis to WR3.  But given the HC's pedigree, I don't see it happening.    

I just don’t see our offense “figuring it out.”  I think we will have some monster games on offense then have some stinkers against good defenses. But in the end, i think the offense will be underwhelming when it matters which should at the very least result in Ken Dorsey being relieved. 

[GunnerBill]

27 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Absolutely.  I had expectations this would have improved when Josh demonstrated he could be a franchise QB, but little has changed.    

 

This season it seems the offensive improvement was based on better backs, a rookie TE, and flyers on 2 cheap UFA receivers.  Not going to get it done for a team with SB aspirations.  And this happened in the wake of 2 disappointing playoff exits against teams with better offenses.  

 

Maybe they swing a deal for a top WR and move Davis to WR3.  But given the HC's pedigree, I don't see it happening.    

 

It was based mainly on an upgraded offensive line. They didn't look that upgraded this past week, but I put that down to poor schedule planning and the jetlag. I'll get worried about the OL if we start to see repeats of last week. 

[Beck Water]

13 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

So Diggs open twice deep, under-thrown twice neither resulted in scores, both should be TDs. That the game right there. 

 

You do understand that part of making a deep reception, is to track the ball in the air and adjust?

1 hour ago, finn said:

You got to wonder if Anderson, the backup, is actually worse than Brown. Brown's problems with pass-pro appear to be holding back the entire offense. 

 

?

 

Last I looked, Anderson was backing up G and getting looks as 3rd string C.  Germain Ifredi is the backup RT.

[Beck Water]

47 minutes ago, VaMilBill said:

I just don’t see our offense “figuring it out.”  I think we will have some monster games on offense then have some stinkers against good defenses. But in the end, i think the offense will be underwhelming when it matters which should at the very least result in Ken Dorsey being relieved. 

 

So let me get this straight.

 

Jets game: Offense stinks, don't see them figuring it out

Raiders: oh, well, that was the Raiders

Commanders: pushovers, good DL means nothing

Miami before the game: Doomed! 

Miami after the game: Amazing!  Unstoppable!

Jags: Offense stinks, don't see them figuring it out.

[DuckyBoys]

Execution was not there clearly  The sleepwalked the first half    Its not too much though to expect some semblance of a rushing attack and a few plays schemed up to have wide open easy throws.   Not every play should look so danged hard  

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It was based mainly on an upgraded offensive line. They didn't look that upgraded this past week, but I put that down to poor schedule planning and the jetlag. I'll get worried about the OL if we start to see repeats of last week. 

 

Sure, OL needed improving, but skill players - WR and TE - is where it's at in this era of offensive football.  Their WR UFA acquisitions are living up to low expectations and Kincaid being a rookie is just that.  I expect he'll improve but you don't bank on rookies as a SB type team.  

 

Problem is that Buffalo tends to like their players too much.  I get they need to show that to an extent, but there isn't enough pushing guys with competition.  That is especially the case at the tackles, where Dawkins' conditioning issues are well-known as is Brown's performance (perhaps injury related) needed something. 

 

I just see the team getting soft at times.  And for all of McD's competitiveness, the team follows its HC's example.    

 

 

[GoBills808]

58 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

So let me get this straight.

 

Jets game: Offense stinks, don't see them figuring it out

Raiders: oh, well, that was the Raiders

Commanders: pushovers, good DL means nothing

Miami before the game: Doomed! 

Miami after the game: Amazing!  Unstoppable!

Jags: Offense stinks, don't see them figuring it out.

Offense remains elite

 

3rd in the league across the board in points, yards/play, net passing YPA

 

7th in first downs

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Not really one teams leading rusher had 126 yards the other teams had 23 and it was their quarterback wanna guess which team was which? 

There were plenty of other issues too, I’m just pointing out a better throw to Diggs on one of those two plays and it’s a Bills win, given how wiiiiide open he was despite the litany of other issues. It’s not easy, but that’s a moment for an elite game changing throw. 
 

oh well. 

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

You do understand that part of making a deep reception, is to track the ball in the air and adjust?

yeah Diggs might have been better on the int ball, by coming back to the ball harder. If Josh leads it more to the right maybe Diggs gets to it while maintaining separation. 
 

the long completion he had to come back and high point it as opposed to running under it. 
 

missed opportunities both.

[newcam2012]

3 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I think you misunderstand…I did not say their defenses overall were juggernauts.  They have been loaded with quality pass rushers though.  And if a defenses strength is pass rushers and not much else, you’d be crazy not to chip with TEs it just doesn’t make sense not to do that.  You shorten one route to buy your qb time to expose a ton of problems in the secondary.

 

idk how they’ll finish but the jags played a pretty much perfect defensive game on Sunday. I think they’re more than likely top 10 in defensive DVOA.  

 

I guess that final point depends on how you look at it. 12 personnel gives them an unparalleled way to give their RT help in a tough matchup imo, but if you’re only looking for passing yards for some reason and not wins then that changes the equation.  There are teams like kc where the big time pass rusher plays inside where our more competent players are and I think you’ll see more of the routes out of the TEs that you’re looking for.  
 

this board is pretty funny with everyone banging the drum on three separate issues which have a single solution to fix all of them but people still complain when we do the thing that fixes all of them 🤣. People have been calling for a reliable Beasley-esque slot guy that can catch the tough underneath throws in traffic, help for Spencer brown, and a weapon that takes some attention away from diggs and Kincaid has proven capable of doing all of those things so far 

 

despite the jags defense having a whale of a game and all the injuries and the scheduling etc we were a few execution issues away from winning comfortably.  
 

it gets so frustrating in here after a loss 😂. Dorsey getting blamed because what he was doing wasn’t ‘clever’ it didn’t have to be clever it just had to be properly executed and it wasn’t.   Peoples answer to drives blowing up because players are dropping wide open passes in the middle of the field and the oline getting blown up is to make the offense more complicated and send our tight ends out on deeper, longer developing routes? Just doesn’t make sense to me 

simultaneously saying oh sugar high josh is back trying to do too much and will lose the game then turning it around and criticizing him for taking checkdowns when the pocket is collapsing doesn’t make sense to me 

 

I have so much to say about this post. It definitely sparked my attention. Not a bad thing. 

 

First off, the criticism of the Bills performance is warranted. Clearly, that is something that doesn't sit well with you. 

 

More specifically, lots of teams have very good to elite pass rushers. Using a TE to chip every game is probably more the norm I suppose because do you think Brown will hold up? Did Beane sell the fan base this kind of 12 personnel? Is it what you envisioned? Come on now let's be honest here. Might as well have Edwards lined up all the time as the 2nd TE. He's the best blocker to aid Brown. Maybe the Bills should have upgraded that position like 2 years ago...

 

The Bills do need a solid reliable slot guy! Don't you agree? If not, who is that guy on the team? I can't find him. 

 

The offense besides Diggs isn't reliable. The drops and lack of others stepping up in the Jags game amplified that. Even a good Allen couldn't produce a win. 

 

Allen wasn't the problem vs the Jags. He missed some opportunities that I wish he would have made. Allen in all he was good but not good enough. I wish he would have took more control of the game with his legs. There were a few chances where he could have produced. I may be guilty of being too critical and expecting too much from Josh. 

 

Allen the criticisms you discussed are valid and should be discussed here. Funny how you say it's funny. Almost like fans shouldn't be talking about them. Almost like it's not valid. Hummmm

 

The Bills were never ever close to winning that Jags game comfortable. They were never a play or two from blowing the game open. That's the most absurd thing I've read here in a long long time. Seriously, what game were you watching? Talk about being bias. 

 

On to the Giants a get right game hopefully. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It was based mainly on an upgraded offensive line. They didn't look that upgraded this past week, but I put that down to poor schedule planning and the jetlag. I'll get worried about the OL if we start to see repeats of last week. 

Completely agreed…I’m surprised more people don’t see it this way.  Brown will likely need some help against good dlines but I wouldn’t expect Dawkins to get bulldozed in the vast majority of games.  
 

this game was the perfect storm of bad offensive line play, key drops, a ridiculously good defensive play by the jaguars,a rash of injuries on the defensive side for the bills maybe some of which was exacerbated by the scheduling.  Either way I wouldn’t really expect those things to occur on a week to week basis 

[newcam2012]

3 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Absolutely.  I had expectations this would have improved when Josh demonstrated he could be a franchise QB, but little has changed.    

 

This season it seems the offensive improvement was based on better backs, a rookie TE, and flyers on 2 cheap UFA receivers.  Not going to get it done for a team with SB aspirations.  And this happened in the wake of 2 disappointing playoff exits against teams with better offenses.  

 

Maybe they swing a deal for a top WR and move Davis to WR3.  But given the HC's pedigree, I don't see it happening.    

Great post. Every year most fans pump up our expectations of the team. Generally, pump up the draft choices and acquisitions. Pump up how the current guys on the roster will step up. Thus far, Bernard is the star of the show. To a lesser extent Torrence. Everyone else not so much . Been very disappointing on the offensive side of the ball. Cook is not an every down back. He's ok but nothing special. Kincaid not being used properly. Harty, Sherwood, and Shakir are after thoughts. 

 

Coaching and schemes are suspect. 

 

I'm sorry I don't see a SB team here. Its a very good team and if all the stats align it's possible. I hold onto that fantasy. The dream lives on only to be disturbed when I wake up. Reality check sometimes isn't welcomed. 

 

Truthfully, I wish the Bills would tear it down and bring in a whole new regime. New GM, new coaches, new players, new systems. I know that probably irrational but the status quo isn't getting it done. More wasted opportunities are on the horizon. 

[90sBills]

11 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I was there. Unbelievable that it wasn’t a touchdown. He was WIDE open and had to slow down to catch the ball. Nobody gets that open in an NFL game. Josh absolutely needs to hit him in stride. Not sure why people feel it’s sacrilegious to criticize Josh Allen. 

It looked that way on TV as well. Diggs had to slow down because the ball was under thrown. He did all he could to try and catch that ball. Yet people still say Allen threw a great pass and blamed Diggs for the int. Unbelievable. Making plays like that win close tough games. Opportunities are few in tough games so they need to be capitalized. 

 

When Allen’s bad throws get pointed out in posts like this certain fans just can’t accept it. I really don’t get it. He’s a great qb. But he makes mistakes too. It’s ok to call it out. 

[Logic]

Sometimes the coaches get outcoached.

Sometimes the players get outplayed.

We can spend all week looking for deeper meaning -- were the playcallers too slow to adjust? Were the receivers or the protection more to blame? Was it injuries? International body clock? -- but at the end of the day, the other guys get paid, too.

The Bills have a good offensive coordinator and a cast of offensive players that are highly productive most weeks. The coordinator was out-coordinated and the players played poorly. Blame it on whatever you want. It happens sometimes.

I'm not taking it as a season-long indictment on anyone or trying to overreact or paint the picture bigger and with more colors than it deserves. It was a bad week. The Bills got outplayed and outcoached and lost.

On to the Giants.

[WideNine]

23 hours ago, jlgarsh said:

Josh had a PFF grade of 91.5 and a QBR of 86.7 vs. the Jags. He was not the problem Sunday.

 

Folks keep forgetting that while the Jags defense was pitching some 3 and outs our defense could not get off the field and allowed a lot of conversions that moved the chains and produced long Jaguar drives. 

There were reasons for that too starting with losing so many defensive starters so quickly in the game.

 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

I have so much to say about this post. It definitely sparked my attention. Not a bad thing. 

 

First off, the criticism of the Bills performance is warranted. Clearly, that is something that doesn't sit well with you. 

 

More specifically, lots of teams have very good to elite pass rushers. Using a TE to chip every game is probably more the norm I suppose because do you think Brown will hold up? Did Beane sell the fan base this kind of 12 personnel? Is it what you envisioned? Come on now let's be honest here. Might as well have Edwards lined up all the time as the 2nd TE. He's the best blocker to aid Brown. Maybe the Bills should have upgraded that position like 2 years ago...

 

The Bills do need a solid reliable slot guy! Don't you agree? If not, who is that guy on the team? I can't find him. 

 

The offense besides Diggs isn't reliable. The drops and lack of others stepping up in the Jags game amplified that. Even a good Allen couldn't produce a win. 

 

Allen wasn't the problem vs the Jags. He missed some opportunities that I wish he would have made. Allen in all he was good but not good enough. I wish he would have took more control of the game with his legs. There were a few chances where he could have produced. I may be guilty of being too critical and expecting too much from Josh. 

 

Allen the criticisms you discussed are valid and should be discussed here. Funny how you say it's funny. Almost like fans shouldn't be talking about them. Almost like it's not valid. Hummmm

 

The Bills were never ever close to winning that Jags game comfortable. They were never a play or two from blowing the game open. That's the most absurd thing I've read here in a long long time. Seriously, what game were you watching? Talk about being bias. 

 

On to the Giants a get right game hopefully. 

Oh there’s tons of criticism warranted haha they did not play well and I absolutely agree that the receivers past diggs were an issue.

the offensive line which has been solid all season got steamrolled in this one also.  

 

I think Kincaid will be a very reliable slot option if he gets the opportunity but he and Knox are busy chipping for Spencer brown who needs a lot of help when he draws a tougher offensive line matchup. Then everyone criticizes the usage of Knox/Kincaid a little bit unjustly imo.  
 

by comfortably I meant a one score win that didn’t really feel like was in a lot of danger of getting away from us…I’m not trying to say we would’ve blown them out which seems like is what you took out of the sentence which is fair based on the wording but not really what I meant. 
 

Criticism in general is welcomed and certainly warranted after that game I just respectfully disagree with a lot of the directions the criticisms have gone.  They feel really hindsight-y and cherry picked at times especially when people try to evaluate offensive playcalling. Like obviously if you know your team is going to drop every single wide open third down pass before it happens you’d know you had to start attacking deeper downfield on earlier downs just as one example.  I’m sure Dorsey was losing his mind in the booth watching that go down 😂. 
 

and then things like ‘Knox and Kincaid should be running deeper routes and not chipping’…that’s easy to say now because we lost but there’s a good chance if we tried that in the game things would’ve gone even worse with how much stress the offensive line was already under. 

The defense is kind of getting a free pass also based on the circumstances which I completely understand, but the offense had bad field position all game long because the jaguars were converting a lot of third downs and driving the ball downfield without a lot of resistance 

Poor offensive line, bad field position, stone hands on third down, diggs getting a ball wrestled out of his hands, defensive injuries all played a part in that loss and I just think we’re exaggerating the state of the team based on the results of this one game.  Milano and jones may be done for the year but a lot of the defensive players we lost will certainly be returning 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Sometimes the coaches get outcoached.

Sometimes the players get outplayed.

We can spend all week looking for deeper meaning -- were the playcallers too slow to adjust? Were the receivers or the protection more to blame? Was it injuries? International body clock? -- but at the end of the day, the other guys get paid, too.

The Bills have a good offensive coordinator and a cast of offensive players that are highly productive most weeks. The coordinator was out-coordinated and the players played poorly. Blame it on whatever you want. It happens sometimes.

I'm not taking it as a season-long indictment on anyone or trying to overreact or paint the picture bigger and with more colors than it deserves. It was a bad week. The Bills got outplayed and outcoached and lost.

On to the Giants.

 

...and don't forget the crappy scheduling logistics that tilted the field in favor of the Jags rested and acclimated in the UK while our Bills were working off jet lag crossing the pond just days prior.

 

Pray for the best for our injured starters and put that game in the rear view where it belongs.