All-22 analysis of Bills/Jags

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

 

You can see this type of stuff almost every game. If it's execution then why are these guys so bad?

what do you mean

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah on balance my biggest takeaway from this game is that we had an elite QB play a terrific game, which multiple sources and grading systems agree on, and we still only scored 7 points for the first 52 minutes of the game... I mean that is a really really bad sign about the offensive structure and supporting cast. Hopefully it was just jet lag leading to a poor performance. The alternative is that teams with decent DLs and a good coaching staff are going to easily stifle our offense, which means we are toast in the playoffs.

 

Yea the rest of the offense was bad, all around. Worst game the OL had played, dropped passes.... but the gameplan was worst of all. I saw Dorsey resolutely try and use the plan that worked v Miami against a team defending us in a *very* different way. 

[london_bills]

23 hours ago, Shortchaz said:

I disagree, his recognition and anticipation are not great. 
 

flaw might be the wrong word. Weakness is what I meant 

I think this is fair to an extent. But I've been impressed with his change from week 1 to be making safer decisions with the ball. 

[Coach Tuesday]

26 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

 

You can see this type of stuff almost every game. If it's execution then why are these guys so bad?

It is clearly a lack of practice or lack of practicing the correct way on offense.  You simply have to contrast it with what the Jags were able to do on multiple third downs - Lawrence faced the rush and threw it to a specific spot on the field he knew his receiver would end up in due to the coverage and play call and it worked over and over again.  That is a well-timed, precise, practiced and properly COACHED offense that a lesser QB than Allen was able to execute successfully.

 

We need an overhaul of the entire approach on offense, from the roster allocation strategy to the coaching.  I am convinced.

[HappyDays]

32 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

what do you mean

 

Other top tier offenses don't have persistent issues like that. I guess it could be tunnel vision, like we're Bills fans so we only see bizarre spacing and execution issues like that when it happens to our team. But I feel like the Chiefs, 49ers, Dolphins, etc. don't have those problems. Our offense as a whole just looks a lot less crisp than other championship contenders.

[newcam2012]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Other top tier offenses don't have persistent issues like that. I guess it could be tunnel vision, like we're Bills fans so we only see bizarre spacing and execution issues like that when it happens to our team. But I feel like the Chiefs, 49ers, Dolphins, etc. don't have those problems. Our offense as a whole just looks a lot less crisp than other championship contenders.

I agree. It seems like the Bills offense has to work hard for everything. One penalty, loss of yardage play, and or a drop seems to be hard to overcome. The offensive stats probably don't validate this but that's how I feel. Sure seems like the players have to over execute to make their plays and offensive system work. Nothing seems to come easy. I really think the offensive besides Diggs lacks reliability and explosiveness. Maybe I'm wrong. Hope I'm wrong because it sure seems like the offense has to pick things up for the injury riddled D. 

[HappyDays]

9 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

It is clearly a lack of practice or lack of practicing the correct way on offense.  You simply have to contrast it with what the Jags were able to do on multiple third downs - Lawrence faced the rush and threw it to a specific spot on the field he knew his receiver would end up in due to the coverage and play call and it worked over and over again.  That is a well-timed, precise, practiced and properly COACHED offense that a lesser QB than Allen was able to execute successfully.

 

We need an overhaul of the entire approach on offense, from the roster allocation strategy to the coaching.  I am convinced.

 

On coaching- It does sometimes feel like Dorsey is making moves reactively versus proactively.

 

"We have two good TEs. Run a lot of 12 personnel."

 

"Defenses are taking away deep passes. Go full on dink and dunk all the time."

 

And then when we end up in games where our usual solutions aren't working, Dorsey is way too slow to adjust. Multiple offensive duds each of the past two years including one in the playoffs. There's too few games in a season to have this many gameplan clunkers.

 

On personnel - Maybe our offensive weapons don't mesh together well, I don't know. We have zero YAC specialists. We have like 4 guys that all perform better in the slot. We run a lot of 12 personnel without a TE that excels as a blocker. Davis is a poor fit as a full time outside WR2. It's kind of just a hodgepodge of guys with incongruous skill sets.

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

On coaching- It does sometimes feel like Dorsey is making moves reactively versus proactively.

 

"We have two good TEs. Run a lot of 12 personnel."

 

"Defenses are taking away deep passes. Go full on dink and dunk all the time."

 

And then when we end up in games where our usual solutions aren't working, Dorsey is way too slow to adjust. Multiple offensive duds each of the past two years including one in the playoffs. There's too few games in a season to have this many gameplan clunkers.

 

On personnel - Maybe our offensive weapons don't mesh together well, I don't know. We have zero YAC specialists. We have like 4 guys that all perform better in the slot. We run a lot of 12 personnel without a TE that excels as a blocker. Davis is a poor fit as a full time outside WR2. It's kind of just a hodgepodge of guys with incongruous skill sets.

I'll agree with most but Knox is a very good blocker ... he even can pass block d ends 1 on 1 

 

He's very well rounded and is big part of our blocking scheme 

 

I remember him Stone Cold shutting down Matthew Judan an entire game... impressive 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Buffalo716

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I'll agree with most but Knox is a very good blocker ... he even can pass block d ends 1 on 1 

 

He is a good blocker but I wouldn't say he excels. And he's an inconsistent route runner and pass catcher to boot. Ideally 12 personnel you would have a blocking specialist.

 

When Beane talked about it after drafting Kincaid, he said our 12 personnel would really be 11 personnel with Kincaid as the SWR taking on Beasley's old role. That was my expectation as well. But that hasn't really come to fruition at all. Which brings me to my point of Dorsey using 2TE sets because he feels like he has to, not because he actually knows how to use that package to create mismatches.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by HappyDays

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, 90sBills said:

The next time you have any criticism of Allen will be the first time. And it would truly be an enlightened moment.

 

Btw…I’m not blaming this loss on Allen. It’s a team loss. The offense just couldn’t get going despite a valiant effort by the shorthanded defense.

Oh please.  I'm critical of Allen when it's warranted.  As a Bills fan why would I want to make stuff up just to be critical of our franchise QB especially given that most of the time Allen plays at a very good to elite level.

 

 

 

 

[Beck Water]

On 10/9/2023 at 6:39 PM, Shortchaz said:

Josh is a great but flawed quarterback. All his physical tools are ideal. He has, and still can (a lot of the time), rely heavily on these tools. He hasn’t had to be a student of the game beyond what is normal (for starting nfl quarterbacks). If he wants to go to the next level he has to develop this aspect of his game. He has to make his changeup as good as his fastball if you will. 
 

These shortcomings are also on coaching. The coordinator and the qb are a package. 
 

These criticisms are in the context of josh already being a great nfl quarterback. 

 

You do realize that this flatly contradicts the very nice point by point summary of the all-22 review @HappyDays provided?

 

What are you, one of those old-fashioned crying baby dolls where you squeeze it the right way and it wails the same tune?

[Buffalo716]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

He is a good blocker but I wouldn't say he excels. And he's an inconsistent route runner and pass catcher to boot. Ideally 12 personnel you would have a blocking specialist.

 

When Beane talked about it after drafting Kincaid, he said our 12 personnel would really be 11 personnel with Kincaid as the SWR taking on Beasley's old role. That was my expectation as well. But that hasn't really come to fruition at all. Which brings me to my point of Dorsey using 2TE sets because he feels like he has to, not because he actually knows how to use that package to create mismatches.

 

The days of blocking specialist tight ends are getting phased out... unless you're a team that's going to hand off the ball to a running back 300 times a year

 

We were running team for 20 years so the bills could carry it.. Tennessee could carry it with King Henry.. Baltimore

 

But the bills mask their under center offense with basically a spread offense.. and with the limited roster space, a blocking specialist is probably far down the list

 

I've seen Dawson Knox Stalwart Matthew judon for an entire game and he's a pro bowler.. not beat him for a few reps

 

Literally out muscle him for an entire game and demoralize him..  whoop him in pass blocking

 

He's definitely an inconsistent receiver who can make big plays.. but he's definitely one of the better blocking starting tight ends in the league

 

I don't think Dorsey knows how to use tight ends that well right now

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Shortchaz]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

You do realize that this flatly contradicts the very nice point by point summary of the all-22 review @HappyDays provided?

 

What are you, one of those old-fashioned crying baby dolls where you squeeze it the right way and it wails the same tune?

You apparently skipped the FIRST section of the review and went directly to the sections that praised josh. 
 

your brain lumps anything critical of josh into one category so your thoughts aren’t challenged. It’s a normal defense mechanism. It’s okay, many people can’t handle complex ideas. 

[newcam2012]

22 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

It is clearly a lack of practice or lack of practicing the correct way on offense.  You simply have to contrast it with what the Jags were able to do on multiple third downs - Lawrence faced the rush and threw it to a specific spot on the field he knew his receiver would end up in due to the coverage and play call and it worked over and over again.  That is a well-timed, precise, practiced and properly COACHED offense that a lesser QB than Allen was able to execute successfully.

 

We need an overhaul of the entire approach on offense, from the roster allocation strategy to the coaching.  I am convinced.

The offense is good mostly because of Allen's greatness. His ability to make all the throws, scramble, and extend plays. 

 

The Bills offensive scheme is very vanilla, lacks creativity, motion, is rarely team specific, one play hardly ever sets up another play, and lacks proper gametime adjustments.

 

I feel like the Bills O just sticks with the general offensive plan. Kind of like this is what we do go ahead and try to stop it. They believe they can out execute the other teams D. This works super well against lesser opponents and even good opponents. Number 17 and 14 can carry a team often. 

 

I'm a bit disappointed with the outlook of the offense. I know numbers say otherwise. The Miami game was fantastic and can't be discounted. Dorsey was great too! I fear that might be more of an anomaly. I know others will chime in and give great input as to why my viewpoint is likely inaccurate. Please do because I want to be wrong. 

 

More specifically, I feel like the offense isn't explosive and lacks weapons. There's Diggs and really no one else. The 12 personnel is a joke. The use of Knox and Kincaid for 5 yard passes is anything but brilliant. Davis is scoring TDs and is decent. The drops are what they are. An upgrade is really needed but he's cheap and serviceable. The chemistry with Allen is indisputable. The rest of the WR core is subpar. Still no slot receiver. Still no screen passes. 

 

Another huge concern is the Bills WRs cannot create separation. This is why they are at the bottom of the league for YAC. Without YAC, the offense has to work way way way too hard to score. 

 

Allen is less of a weapon this year because he's not running much. After 5 games his legs have been under utilized. Maybe that's a good thing long term but it certainly makes the Bills O less dynamic. I get it's a balancing act between protecting Allen and winning games. The Jags game sure looked like Allen had a few lanes to get some good yardage. When Allen runs it sure seems to spark the offense. They needed a spark in Sunday. 

 

I was very impressed with the oline until the Jags game. Hopefully, that was just a London travel thing. As we know a good oline makes an offense much much more dangerous. 

 

Sorry for the rant. 

[Beck Water]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

He is a good blocker but I wouldn't say he excels. And he's an inconsistent route runner and pass catcher to boot. Ideally 12 personnel you would have a blocking specialist.

 

When Beane talked about it after drafting Kincaid, he said our 12 personnel would really be 11 personnel with Kincaid as the SWR taking on Beasley's old role. That was my expectation as well. But that hasn't really come to fruition at all. Which brings me to my point of Dorsey using 2TE sets because he feels like he has to, not because he actually knows how to use that package to create mismatches.

 

 

I could be mistaken, but I thought the reviews after the Raiders and the Miami games were that Dorsey had used 12 personnel quite effectively

 

I'm not a college football fan, but I thought the Hurricaines used 2 TE quite a bit when Dorsey went 38-2 with them.  Pretty sure the Panthers used 2 TE sets a lot while Dorsey was their QB coach and Mike Shula (who is now in the Bills building with Dorsey) was OC, especially in 2015 when Ed Dickson got there.

 

I think it's pretty unlikely that Dorsey doesn't "know how to use that package to create mismatches"

 

7 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I don't think Dorsey knows how to use tight ends that well right now

 

Interesting.  Why do you think that?

 

I've seen Kincaid open underneath.  But I've also seen him getting mauled around off the line and trying to run routes with one of his arms being held behind him. I think Kincaid needs to adjust to the physicality of the NFL some.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Beck Water

[Low Positive]

2 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

The offense is good mostly because of Allen's greatness. His ability to make all the throws, scramble, and extend plays. 

 

The Bills offensive scheme is very vanilla, lacks creativity, motion, is rarely team specific, one play hardly ever sets up another play, and lacks proper gametime adjustments.

 

I feel like the Bills O just sticks with the general offensive plan. Kind of like this is what we do go ahead and try to stop it. They believe they can out execute the other teams D. This works super well against lesser opponents and even good opponents. Number 17 and 14 can carry a team often. 

 

I'm a bit disappointed with the outlook of the offense. I know numbers say otherwise. The Miami game was fantastic and can't be discounted. Dorsey was great too! I fear that might be more of an anomaly. I know others will chime in and give great input as to why my viewpoint is likely inaccurate. Please do because I want to be wrong. 

 

More specifically, I feel like the offense isn't explosive and lacks weapons. There's Diggs and really no one else. The 12 personnel is a joke. The use of Knox and Kincaid for 5 yard passes is anything but brilliant. Davis is scoring TDs and is decent. The drops are what they are. An upgrade is really needed but he's cheap and serviceable. The chemistry with Allen is indisputable. The rest of the WR core is subpar. Still no slot receiver. Still no screen passes. 

 

Another huge concern is the Bills WRs cannot create separation. This is why they are at the bottom of the league for YAC. Without YAC, the offense has to work way way way too hard to score. 

 

Allen is less of a weapon this year because he's not running much. After 5 games his legs have been under utilized. Maybe that's a good thing long term but it certainly makes the Bills O less dynamic. I get it's a balancing act between protecting Allen and winning games. The Jags game sure looked like Allen had a few lanes to get some good yardage. When Allen runs it sure seems to spark the offense. They needed a spark in Sunday. 

 

I was very impressed with the oline until the Jags game. Hopefully, that was just a London travel thing. As we know a good oline makes an offense much much more dangerous. 

 

Sorry for the rant. 

The Buffalo Bills, even after week 5, are 6th in the league in YAC, 4th in receiving yards and third in number of completions. 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2023/advanced.htm

[Beck Water]

5 minutes ago, Shortchaz said:

You apparently skipped the FIRST section of the review and went directly to the sections that praised josh. 
 

your brain lumps anything critical of josh into one category so your thoughts aren’t challenged. It’s a normal defense mechanism. It’s okay, many people can’t handle complex ideas. 

 

Now this is pure trolling, and not good trolling at all.  Back under your bridge, ShortArm.

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I could be mistaken, but I thought the reviews after the Raiders and the Miami games were that Dorsey had used 12 personnel quite effectively

 

I'm not a college football fan, but I thought the Hurricaines used 2 TE quite a bit when Dorsey went 38-2 with them.  Pretty sure the Panthers used 2 TE sets a lot while Dorsey was their QB coach and Mike Shula (who is now in the Bills building with Dorsey) was OC, especially in 2015 when Ed Dickson got there.

 

I think it's pretty unlikely that Dorsey doesn't "know how to use that package to create mismatches"

 

 

Interesting.  Why do you think that?

 

I've seen Kincaid open underneath.  But I've also seen him getting mauled around off the line and trying to run routes with one of his arms being held behind him. I think Kincaid needs to adjust to the physicality of the NFL some.

I mean it's a long season so I'm open to how it evolves

 

But even last year I felt that Knox can be used more as a vertical threat.. and right now Kincaid is being a steady check down option

 

But I feel he has so much potential down the seam which we aren't utilizing right now

 

Fitz use the torch the seams with Scott Chandler... Knox and Kincaid could be Killers down the middle

Edited October 11, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Solomon Grundy]

On 10/9/2023 at 7:48 PM, Xwnyer said:

Does he ever hit a receiver in stride across the middle or in the flat,  sure does on deep ball but not the shorter passes.

He sure looks accurate on the slant throws to Diggs

[GoBills808]

47 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Other top tier offenses don't have persistent issues like that. I guess it could be tunnel vision, like we're Bills fans so we only see bizarre spacing and execution issues like that when it happens to our team. But I feel like the Chiefs, 49ers, Dolphins, etc. don't have those problems. Our offense as a whole just looks a lot less crisp than other championship contenders.

Maybe

 

But I'm pretty sure I could comb thru a Chiefs or Lions game and find a similarly poorly spaced play design here or there

 

My position on the offense remains they're doing the best they can wrt personnel

 

Just a guess