Israel and Iran

[ExiledInIllinois]

[SCBills]

Free Palestine is so hot right now 

 

 

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 6/1/2024 at 6:38 PM, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

No Fuzzy Lumpkins, I wasn’t criticizing getting Brittney Grenier back, though I think JB was weak in that regard and Putin knew he could roll him.   In fact, Hamas apparently knows how to roll him too. 
 

It is interesting how you see things when it’s Israeli men, women and children being brutalized.  You’re actually convinced that demanding the release of all kidnapped citizens as a condition of the ceasefire is a bad idea. 

 

A Powerpuff Girls reference?? Leh-nerd, you had my curiosity…but now you have my attention.

 

Hostages are the main negotiating leverage Hamas has over Israel, so demanding their full release is pointless before a suitable articulation of this Phase 2 criterion is met: “a permanent end to hostilities.” Unless Israel agrees beforehand to the end of apartheid practices or to the establishment of a separate Palestinian state, I don’t see why Hamas would bother entertaining such a condition to a peace agreement.

 

The current peace proposal is obviously a good one for Palestinians because they badly need the humanitarian aid ASAP, but it’s also a good one for Israel because it’s in Israel’s financial and national security interests to avoid their international pariah state trajectory (and because some hostages released is always better than none). Acceptance of this proposal would also be ideal for Brokering Biden in terms of party coalition building and November electability. Better late than never, I suppose, even as Genocide Joe’s main leverage (the withholding of U.S. munitions) remains unutilized...

 

Moot debate, however, since I believe Netanyahu already rejected the proposal. It should be apparent that hostage rescue and the defeat of Hamas (a practical impossibility, by the way) were secondary objectives to Israel’s government and to the IDF. It should have been apparent since late October that Israel’s main agenda was ethnic cleansing and a genocide to facilitate said cleansing. They want to finish in Gaza (plus the West Bank via acceleration of illegal settlements…plus southern Lebanon military encroachments…plus the Golan Heights) what they started with the Nakba in 1948. National security risks and/or make-believe Biblical mandates are the lies that Israelis tell themselves to justify their support of collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. At least European settlers were a bit more forthright with Native Americans: they wanted their land and their resources, and they believed they were innately superior humans who could make better use of it all. Zionists have historically been far more duplicitous toward Palestinians, though the mask is slipping.

[Irv]

Nuke Gaza!

[Andy1]

Neither side wants peace. The war will continue until one of them says enough. Hamas views their people as expendable. They are willing to sacrifice every civilian so long as it hurts the international standing of Israel. So the question is, when will Hamas say enough, let’s agree to peace, or when will Israel say enough?

[Irv]

7 minutes ago, Andy1 said:

Neither side wants peace. The war will continue until one of them says enough. Hamas views their people as expendable. They are willing to sacrifice every civilian so long as it hurts the international standing of Israel. So the question is, when will Hamas say enough, let’s agree to peace, or when will Israel say enough?

When the Palestinians are all melted.  

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

2 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

A Powerpuff Girls reference?? Leh-nerd, you had my curiosity…but now you have my attention.

 

Hostages are the main negotiating leverage Hamas has over Israel, so demanding their full release is pointless before a suitable articulation of this Phase 2 criterion is met: “a permanent end to hostilities.” Unless Israel agrees beforehand to the end of apartheid practices or to the establishment of a separate Palestinian state, I don’t see why Hamas would bother entertaining such a condition to a peace agreement.

 

The current peace proposal is obviously a good one for Palestinians because they badly need the humanitarian aid ASAP, but it’s also a good one for Israel because it’s in Israel’s financial and national security interests to avoid their international pariah state trajectory (and because some hostages released is always better than none). Acceptance of this proposal would also be ideal for Brokering Biden in terms of party coalition building and November electability. Better late than never, I suppose, even as Genocide Joe’s main leverage (the withholding of U.S. munitions) remains unutilized...

 

Moot debate, however, since I believe Netanyahu already rejected the proposal. It should be apparent that hostage rescue and the defeat of Hamas (a practical impossibility, by the way) were secondary objectives to Israel’s government and to the IDF. It should have been apparent since late October that Israel’s main agenda was ethnic cleansing and a genocide to facilitate said cleansing. They want to finish in Gaza (plus the West Bank via acceleration of illegal settlements…plus southern Lebanon military encroachments…plus the Golan Heights) what they started with the Nakba in 1948. National security risks and/or make-believe Biblical mandates are the lies that Israelis tell themselves to justify their support of collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. At least European settlers were a bit more forthright with Native Americans: they wanted their land and their resources, and they believed they were innately superior humans who could make better use of it all. Zionists have historically been far more duplicitous toward Palestinians, though the mask is slipping.

I'm not certain why a reference to a character on Powerpuff Girls would catch your attention, but as a middle child I'm always appreciative to be noticed.  

 

I recognize the complicated nature of the Middle East, concerns about past, present and future injustice in a world punctuated by madness, intolerance and apathy.  Israel has a burden to carry in that regard, as do the Palestinians.  

 

I think the guiding hand of Israel has decided that given the choice between being an international pariah, and the murder/subjugation and the plans of Hamas/Palestinians for their nation as evidenced by the October 2023 atrocities, they will take the path to being a pariah, the events of November, 1948 notwithstanding.   

 

I fail to see a reasonable path to peace when one of the conditions of coming together at the table of brotherhood  involves one side continuing to victimize, enslave, sexually assault and kill those children/women/men in captivity until some future time unlikely ever to materialize.  Though, in reality, I don't see a time in the near future when these two sides ever come together.  

 

It's a crappy deal. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ComradeKayAdams]

6 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I'm not certain why a reference to a character on Powerpuff Girls would catch your attention, but as a middle child I'm always appreciative to be noticed.  

 

I recognize the complicated nature of the Middle East, concerns about past, present and future injustice in a world punctuated by madness, intolerance and apathy.  Israel has a burden to carry in that regard, as do the Palestinians.  

 

I think the guiding hand of Israel has decided that given the choice between being an international pariah, and the murder/subjugation and the plans of Hamas/Palestinians for their nation as evidenced by the October 2023 atrocities, they will take the path to being a pariah, the events of November, 1948 notwithstanding.   

 

I fail to see a reasonable path to peace when one of the conditions of coming together at the table of brotherhood  involves one side continuing to victimize, enslave, sexually assault and kill those children/women/men in captivity until some future time unlikely ever to materialize.  Though, in reality, I don't see a time in the near future when these two sides ever come together.  

 

It's a crappy deal.

 

The Powerpuff Girls reference conjured up childhood nostalgia. I was enjoying the ephemeral dopamine kick before getting to the rest of your post.

 

An international pariah state status is a highly intolerable position in which an economically aspirational country can find itself. Ask 1980’s South Africa.

 

I totally respect wanting all Israeli hostages released upfront in any peace deal, but my point is that Israel would need to initially offer something truly substantive to Hamas in return. Otherwise, the round of negotiations would abruptly end. That truly substantive thing would likely be on the order of a promise of Palestinian statehood, with an opening gambit maybe being the approximate pre-1967 Green Line borders? I do realize negotiations aren’t this simple, of course, especially considering that Netanyahu’s interests aren’t necessarily aligned with those of Israel (and likewise for Yahya Sinwar and Palestine).

 

By the way, I can’t tell if you’re unaware of the full scope of the genocide in Gaza, or if you simply don’t value Palestinian lives nearly as much you do Israeli lives?? Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor is doing an admirable job of collating the facts and evidence of the genocide. The picture being painted is perhaps the darkest stain on human existence in the twenty-first century.

 

P.S. Fuzzy Lumpkins would be a MAGA hat-wearing Trump voter in the year 2024. Disagree?

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

4 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

The Powerpuff Girls reference conjured up childhood nostalgia. I was enjoying the ephemeral dopamine kick before getting to the rest of your post.

Let’s always remember to keep that moment in our hearts, fleeting though it might have been.

 

4 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

An international pariah state status is a highly intolerable position in which an economically aspirational country can find itself. Ask 1980’s South Africa.

Well, I’m guessing that most reasonable people would think execution, violent and repeated sexual assault, murder, desecration of bodies, beheadings, and everything that went on on October 7 would be judged “intolerable”, but here we are exclusively discussing the response of the victimized.  What a world. 

Be that as it may, I’m not in Israel, nor do I speak for the people of that country.  I’m simply looking at their response to the proposal and their actions since October.

 

4 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

I totally respect wanting all Israeli hostages released upfront in any peace deal, but my point is that Israel would need to initially offer something truly substantive to Hamas in return. Otherwise, the round of negotiations would abruptly end. That truly substantive thing would likely be on the order of a promise of Palestinian statehood, with an opening gambit maybe being the approximate pre-1967 Green Line borders? I do realize negotiations aren’t this simple, of course, especially considering that Netanyahu’s interests aren’t necessarily aligned with those of Israel (and likewise for Yahya Sinwar and Palestine).

There is a tendency to over-complicate hot-button issues, where common sense is discarded and analysis by paralysis sets in.  Release the hostages—all of them—living, dead, brutalized, terrorized, Israeli, British, American, children, men, women.  That, by the way doesn’t reflect an act of peace, and the pertrators of the atrocity should still be hunted down.  It’s simply the only place to start, and people of faith should recognize that. 

 

4 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

By the way, I can’t tell if you’re unaware of the full scope of the genocide in Gaza, or if you simply don’t value Palestinian lives nearly as much you do Israeli lives?? Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor is doing an admirable job of collating the facts and evidence of the genocide. The picture being painted is perhaps the darkest stain on human existence in the twenty-first century.

I’ll steer clear of the insinuations on your character here, Kay, I have no idea what’s really in your heart as it relates to all this.  You feel free to proceed as you see fit about mine.  It doesn’t matter to me, really, though it’s interesting that you find my position respectable yet chose this line of questioning.  
 

Again, just applying reasonable standards here, 10/7 represents a pretty dark stain on humanity, carried out by one nation/people v another,  not limited to the 21st Century.  

4 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

P.S. Fuzzy Lumpkins would be a MAGA hat-wearing Trump voter in the year 2024. Disagree?

No, this is unimaginative and reflects plumbing the depths of a shallow pool of imagination.  Seeing this through, FL, as a television personality/celebrity would be more likely to skew liberal, claim credit as some sort of activist, and fly from NYC to Europe to protest climate change.  Of course, FL would then hop a charter to Seoul to catch the TSwift Eras tour, then back home to LA to accept an award as a UN eco-Ambassador.   Meanwhile, of course, FL as a star of daytime TV, would have had access to Hollywood bigwigs—your Clooneys, your Streeps, your Harvey Weinsteins.  We know, of course, know where that leads—nobody knew nothing, least of all FL. 
 

Don’t even get me started on Blossom. 

Edited June 6 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[ComradeKayAdams]

14 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Well, I’m guessing that most reasonable people would think execution, violent and repeated sexual assault, murder, desecration of bodies, beheadings, and everything that went on on October 7 would be judged “intolerable”, but here we are exclusively discussing the response of the victimized.  What a world. 

 

Be that as it may, I’m not in Israel, nor do I speak for the people of that country.  I’m simply looking at their response to the proposal and their actions since October.

 

Yeah, what a world…a world that denounces collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, and genocide as a response to a terrorist attack…sounds like a world with a functioning moral compass, actually…a world that was overwhelmingly on Israel’s side after the October 7 attack and until Israel went psychotic… People who truly care about the future well-being of Israel will stop wallowing in realms of perpetual victimhood, stop indulging in interminable revenge fantasies, and start thinking about the factors that precipitated those unforgivable atrocities on October 7. You see the obvious analogy between 10/7 and 9/11, right??

 

14 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

There is a tendency to over-complicate hot-button issues, where common sense is discarded and analysis by paralysis sets in.  Release the hostages—all of them—living, dead, brutalized, terrorized, Israeli, British, American, children, men, women.  That, by the way doesn’t reflect an act of peace, and the pertrators of the atrocity should still be hunted down.  It’s simply the only place to start, and people of faith should recognize that.

 

Who is discarding common sense here?? You want a peace deal in which all Israeli hostages are immediately released. Awesome! So do I. Now what are you suggesting Hamas be offered in order for them to agree to such a deal? SUGGEST SOMETHING so that I can then give you my opinion of the likelihood that Hamas accepts it. You already know what I would suggest. If Hamas were to dare reject an Israeli offering of Palestinian statehood at this particular moment in the conflict’s long history, I believe Palestinians would quickly turn against Hamas.

 

14 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I’ll steer clear of the insinuations on your character here, Kay, I have no idea what’s really in your heart as it relates to all this.  You feel free to proceed as you see fit about mine.  It doesn’t matter to me, really, though it’s interesting that you find my position respectable yet chose this line of questioning.  
 

Again, just applying reasonable standards here, 10/7 represents a pretty dark stain on humanity, carried out by one nation/people v another,  not limited to the 21st Century. 

 

You don’t need to insinuate or speculate anything about me because I’ve been very clear and upfront on this topic. You can read my entire post history in this thread (February 13-16, March 4-8, March 23, April 15-22, and now). I’ve also posted in the equivalent thread over at BillsFans.com (October 10-13 and November 8). It’s disappointing that you are unable to denounce the blatant ethnic cleansing and genocide that Israel is committing in Gaza. I do think very highly of your character, believe it or not, which is why I’m particularly upset that you aren’t seeing through the Zionist propaganda permeating mainstream/corporate American media.

 

14 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

No, this is unimaginative and reflects plumbing the depths of a shallow pool of imagination.  Seeing this through, FL, as a television personality/celebrity would be more likely to skew liberal, claim credit as some sort of activist, and fly from NYC to Europe to protest climate change.  Of course, FL would then hop a charter to Seoul to catch the TSwift Eras tour, then back home to LA to accept an award as a UN eco-Ambassador.   Meanwhile, of course, FL as a star of daytime TV, would have had access to Hollywood bigwigs—your Clooneys, your Streeps, your Harvey Weinsteins.  We know, of course, know where that leads—nobody knew nothing, least of all FL. 
 

Don’t even get me started on Blossom. 

 

You’re only reinforcing my point: it takes a high level of imagination to consider Mr. Lumpkins as anything other than a MAGA voter. What do you think Fuzzy’s policy stance is on gun rights?? How about eminent domain?? STOP DESECRATING MY CHILDHOOD. Next thing you’re going to tell me is that Jess Mariano wasn’t the perfect partner for Rory Gilmore, and that Rory would have been better off marrying Logan…<< Kay Adams eyeroll >>

 

[Irv]

Israel wasting their time with conventional weapons.  All those hostages are dead.  Push the button!

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

2 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Yeah, what a world…a world that denounces collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, and genocide as a response to a terrorist attack…sounds like a world with a functioning moral compass, actually…a world that was overwhelmingly on Israel’s side after the October 7 attack and until Israel went psychotic… People who truly care about the future well-being of Israel will stop wallowing in realms of perpetual victimhood, stop indulging in interminable revenge fantasies, and start thinking about the factors that precipitated those unforgivable atrocities on October 7. You see the obvious analogy between 10/7 and 9/11, right??

 

 

Who is discarding common sense here?? You want a peace deal in which all Israeli hostages are immediately released. Awesome! So do I. Now what are you suggesting Hamas be offered in order for them to agree to such a deal? SUGGEST SOMETHING so that I can then give you my opinion of the likelihood that Hamas accepts it. You already know what I would suggest. If Hamas were to dare reject an Israeli offering of Palestinian statehood at this particular moment in the conflict’s long history, I believe Palestinians would quickly turn against Hamas.

 

 

You don’t need to insinuate or speculate anything about me because I’ve been very clear and upfront on this topic. You can read my entire post history in this thread (February 13-16, March 4-8, March 23, April 15-22, and now). I’ve also posted in the equivalent thread over at BillsFans.com (October 10-13 and November 8). It’s disappointing that you are unable to denounce the blatant ethnic cleansing and genocide that Israel is committing in Gaza. I do think very highly of your character, believe it or not, which is why I’m particularly upset that you aren’t seeing through the Zionist propaganda permeating mainstream/corporate American media.

 

 

You’re only reinforcing my point: it takes a high level of imagination to consider Mr. Lumpkins as anything other than a MAGA voter. What do you think Fuzzy’s policy stance is on gun rights?? How about eminent domain?? STOP DESECRATING MY CHILDHOOD. Next thing you’re going to tell me is that Jess Mariano wasn’t the perfect partner for Rory Gilmore, and that Rory would have been better off marrying Logan…<< Kay Adams eyeroll >>

 

I don’t know that the world was “collectively on Israel’s side” post 10/7.  
 

I see parallels between 9/11 and 10/7, mostly from the perspective that while the world is confusing, imperfect and incredibly dangerous, some people want other people eradicated.   You seem to see that as a purely Israeli-created problem, I don’t.  And, when it comes down to “us v them”, a nation most certainly should choose “us”.   
 

The incalculable pain, heartache, death and destruction in the Middle East is horrific on the side of the Palestinians and the Israelis.  Israel plays a part in that.
 

In exchange for Hamas releasing all the hostages….living, dead, traumatized, desecrated, Israel should acknowledge the hostages were returned and the condition they were returned in.  They should tell the whole story, because we likely both agree that given the opportunity, Hamas would follow the same course of action across the nation—bringing that horror to every man, women and child in Israel.  
 

That’s it.  That’s what Israel should agree to, though a step in the right direction would be to cease hostilities immediately. 
 

A ceasefire is in everyone’s best interest and should be pursued thereafter.  Biden is well-positioned to lead the dialogue—rumor is he was speaking with Golda Meier just last month.
 

If talks  involves land swaps, prisoner swaps, financial settlements  or whatever else might follow for the greater good, great.  
 

Finally, on FL, I can only tell you what the odds are.  On gun rights, he would be rabidly anti-gun, yet frequently employ gun-toting security for personal protection.  His feelings on eminent domain would be directly tied to his plan/desire to gain control of property that another person possessed and he wanted for himself.  Sorry for the loss of childhood innocence, I was brokenhearted when OJ was on the lam. 
 

 

 

[reddogblitz]

6 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

Yeah, what a world…a world that denounces collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, and genocide as a response to a terrorist attack…sounds like a world with a functioning moral compass, actually…a world that was overwhelmingly on Israel’s side after the October 7 attack and until Israel went psychotic…

 

The interesting part about this is how the world turned 180 on this in the last 23 years.  I recall after a terrorist attack on us, the world (excerpt France and their Freedom Fries) was behind us on the 2 wars we started that killed 1,000,000+ people, many innocent civilians. I can still remember watching us bomb the ***** out of Baghdad on Nightline.  Why was it ok for us but not for Isreal?

 

Can you name any war in which civilians have NOT been killed?  Of course not cuz there has never been one.

 

 

Edited June 6 by reddogblitz

[sherpa]

48 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

 I can still remember watching us bomb the ***** out of Baghdad on Nightline. 

 

 

We bombed command and control, communication facilities and other military targets in Baghdad.

 

[reddogblitz]

6 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

We bombed command and control, communication facilities and other military targets in Baghdad.

 

 

Oh, OK.  We still killed 1,000,000+ in that war.

[ComradeKayAdams]

22 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I see parallels between 9/11 and 10/7, mostly from the perspective that while the world is confusing, imperfect and incredibly dangerous, some people want other people eradicated.   You seem to see that as a purely Israeli-created problem, I don’t.  And, when it comes down to “us v them”, a nation most certainly should choose “us”.

 

No I don’t, actually, and you would know that if you had been reading my earlier posts on this conflict. In my contemporary pie chart of blame, a majority of it is filled with Israel, a significant portion the United States, and some of it actual anti-Semitism. At one point in history, the pie chart was roughly evenly split between Great Britain and European/Middle Eastern anti-Semitism.

 

22 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

In exchange for Hamas releasing all the hostages….living, dead, traumatized, desecrated, Israel should acknowledge the hostages were returned and the condition they were returned in.  They should tell the whole story, because we likely both agree that given the opportunity, Hamas would follow the same course of action across the nation—bringing that horror to every man, women and child in Israel.  
 

That’s it.  That’s what Israel should agree to, though a step in the right direction would be to cease hostilities immediately. 
 

A ceasefire is in everyone’s best interest and should be pursued thereafter.  Biden is well-positioned to lead the dialogue—rumor is he was speaking with Golda Meier just last month.
 

If talks  involves land swaps, prisoner swaps, financial settlements  or whatever else might follow for the greater good, great.

 

LOL…so Israel gets all its hostages back and Hamas, in return, gets some vague promise of a future cessation in hostilities? Helpful hint, Leh-nerd: an important part of negotiations is trying to understand the perspectives of all involved parties. This type of offer has already been denied multiple times by Hamas, but the N-th time will be the charm?

 

You say that “a ceasefire is in everyone’s best interest.” Is it, though? The humanitarian crisis in Gaza doesn’t seem to be the paramount concern of Hamas. They’re almost reveling in the internecine warfare because, at some level, they may even think they’re defeating Israel: the IDF can’t hold cities in Gaza, Hamas recruitment is up, Israel is losing respect internationally, Israel’s economy is declining, Hezbollah is getting involved, the Camp David Accords are in jeopardy at the Gazan border, and American leftists are applying political pressure on Biden.

 

You’re trivializing, by the way, the importance of those negotiating factors you enumerated. Land disputes are absolutely integral (read: causal) to this entire conflict and to the motivations of both sides. Hamas prisoner swaps are valuable negotiating leverage for Israel, as are financial settlements (though who are we kidding here…the American taxpayer is going to be footing the bill for any urban reconstruction…regardless of the outcome in November’s elections).

 

20 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

The interesting part about this is how the world turned 180 on this in the last 23 years.  I recall after a terrorist attack on us, the world (excerpt France and their Freedom Fries) was behind us on the 2 wars we started that killed 1,000,000+ people, many innocent civilians. I can still remember watching us bomb the ***** out of Baghdad on Nightline.  Why was it ok for us but not for Isreal?

 

Well it shouldn’t have been okay for us then, and it’s not okay for Israel now. Are you attempting to present an argument here other than American hypocrisy?

 

When you are a longstanding imperialistic superpower founded on principles of settler colonialism, you become inured to all the egregious human rights violations you yourself inflict abroad. The rest of the world acquiesces because seriously challenging a superpower has negative consequences. It also helps to have the Fourth Estate owned by corporate oligarchs profiting in some way from the regime change wars, military occupations, coups, assassinations, and illegal drone strikes committed…not to mention the obvious international exploitation of labor and natural resources. It also helps to have the electorally culpable civilian population geographically isolated from the blowback, thanks in large part to two major oceans.

 

My best explanation, however, for the discrepancy in outrage you’re noting: the evolution of independent news media and social media platforms have profoundly altered the landscape of propaganda efficacy, between the Second Iraq War and today.

 

20 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

Can you name any war in which civilians have NOT been killed?  Of course not cuz there has never been one.

 

Right, but different wars have different civilian casualty ratios. The one in this ongoing Gaza conflict could easily be as high as 10:1 or 20:1, when you consider bodies still unaccounted for that are trapped underneath the rubble, or the slipshod manner in which adult males get lumped into the category of “combatants.” I’m certainly no expert military strategist, but was it really necessary to raze ~65% of Gaza’s buildings with 70 thousand tons of bombs, including every hospital but one, all schools and universities, media centers, mosques, museums and other heritage sites, cemeteries, etc…not to mention the farmland destroyed and the severe restrictions in humanitarian aid that are creating famine conditions?? The answer is “YES” if you are intentionally trying to make a place unlivable. Just shout, “but…Hamas tunnels!” every time a human rights referee challenges a bomb strike of yours.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

23 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

No I don’t, actually, and you would know that if you had been reading my earlier posts on this conflict. In my contemporary pie chart of blame, a majority of it is filled with Israel, a significant portion the United States, and some of it actual anti-Semitism. At one point in history, the pie chart was roughly evenly split between Great Britain and European/Middle Eastern anti-Semitism.

Respectfully, I don't read every post you share, here or on other sites.  Going off of the last few days of posting, however, it seems clear you're comfortable with the continued victimization of hostages in the control of Hamas--whatever that entails.  Sadly, what it entails is horrific--sexual assault, sadism, beatings, threats of death, and as it turns out, actual death.   Regardless of what else you might feel or share, allowing that level of barbarism to continue with the ::wink wink" promise to release the rest later on ends the debate for me.  Put that on your pie chart and smoke it. 

 

23 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

 

LOL…so Israel gets all its hostages back and Hamas, in return, gets some vague promise of a future cessation in hostilities? Helpful hint, Leh-nerd: an important part of negotiations is trying to understand the perspectives of all involved parties. This type of offer has already been denied multiple times by Hamas, but the N-th time will be the charm?

No, Kay, perspective is required here.  Hamas releases the people they abducted, savaged, tortured, killed, and continue to hold.  This isn't a business meeting between IBM and HP, a real estate negotiation or anything else.  Helpful hint to you:  Don't get turned around in the bright lights of misguided indignation, regardless of how righteous you believe it to be.  

 

 

23 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

You say that “a ceasefire is in everyone’s best interest.” Is it, though? The humanitarian crisis in Gaza doesn’t seem to be the paramount concern of Hamas. They’re almost reveling in the internecine warfare because, at some level, they may even think they’re defeating Israel: the IDF can’t hold cities in Gaza, Hamas recruitment is up, Israel is losing respect internationally, Israel’s economy is declining, Hezbollah is getting involved, the Camp David Accords are in jeopardy at the Gazan border, and American leftists are applying political pressure on Biden.

Point of agreement here:  Hamas is emboldened by people with your perspective.  

 

 

23 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

You’re trivializing, by the way, the importance of those negotiating factors you enumerated. Land disputes are absolutely integral (read: causal) to this entire conflict and to the motivations of both sides. Hamas prisoner swaps are valuable negotiating leverage for Israel, as are financial settlements (though who are we kidding here…the American taxpayer is going to be footing the bill for any urban reconstruction…regardless of the outcome in November’s elections).

You're über-complicating the painfully simple.  Return the hostages.  

 

[SCBills]

Massive development both tactically and in public relations for Israel. 
 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

32 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Massive development both tactically and in public relations for Israel. 
 

 

From the ultra progressive angle, you have to wonder if the liberation of 4 captives is cause to celebrate, or mourn the loss of 4 individuals that Hamas might have used as bargaining chips in the larger picture and the Israeli hostile incursion?   
 

@Tiberius
 

@ComradeKayAdams

Edited June 8 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[ComradeKayAdams]

21 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Respectfully, I don't read every post you share, here or on other sites.  Going off of the last few days of posting, however, it seems clear you're comfortable with the continued victimization of hostages in the control of Hamas--whatever that entails.  Sadly, what it entails is horrific--sexual assault, sadism, beatings, threats of death, and as it turns out, actual death.   Regardless of what else you might feel or share, allowing that level of barbarism to continue with the ::wink wink" promise to release the rest later on ends the debate for me.  Put that on your pie chart and smoke it. 

 

BLATANTLY INCORRECT. My ideal peace deal would look something like this:

 

1. Immediate release of all hostages from October 7.

2. Immediate and permanent ceasefire.

3. Partial release of hostages whom IDF is holding.

4. Full and immediate allowance of international humanitarian aid inside Gaza.

5. Complete withdrawal of IDF from the Gaza strip.

6. Some type of international reconstruction agreement, in the spirit of the 1948 Marshall Plan.

7. Agreement to, and outline of, a one-state or two-state or contiguous two-state (including Negev Desert) or three-state (Gaza and West Bank as separate countries) solution.

 

Note condition #1. The only reason why I’d be willing to compromise on #1 as a multi-stage process instead is because I acknowledge that #7 is going to take a bit more time to sort out than a resolution by, say, tomorrow morning. I’m simply choosing to prioritize the urgent famine crisis for hundreds of thousands of Gazan children over the extended hostage conditions of ~50-100 adults.

 

Several problems I’m seeing with your point of view:

 

1. Palestinian lives are worth much less to you than Israeli lives, for some reason.

2. You don’t recognize the importance of the aforementioned condition #7 to enduring peace (as both a practical and a moral imperative).

3. You’re apparently oblivious to all the war crimes committed on Israel’s side…such as the Guantanamo Bay-like conditions to which the IDF themselves are subjecting their Gazan detainees (some genuinely guilty of something; some likely not).

 

21 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

No, Kay, perspective is required here.  Hamas releases the people they abducted, savaged, tortured, killed, and continue to hold.  This isn't a business meeting between IBM and HP, a real estate negotiation or anything else.  Helpful hint to you:  Don't get turned around in the bright lights of misguided indignation, regardless of how righteous you believe it to be. 

 

A negotiation is fundamentally still a negotiation, regardless of the stakes, with various gives-and-takes (cool accidental rhyme!). Or at least that’s how Hamas likely sees it. I thought we were discussing more along the lines of how the world is and not how we want it to be?

 

21 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Point of agreement here:  Hamas is emboldened by people with your perspective.

 

Israel emboldens Hamas when they commit daily war crimes and continue to occupy/steal other people’s land, yet you’re fixated on the impact from a relative handful of powerless American leftists speaking out against genocide?? What a joke. “Powerless,” by the way, is a very apt descriptor because Biden and Congress would have otherwise ignored all the AIPAC bribes months ago and withheld munitions to Israel.

 

21 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

You're über-complicating the painfully simple.  Return the hostages.

 

Fantastic!! You did it, Leh-nerd!! You just solved the hopelessly intractable Israel-Palestine crisis!! Yay!!

 

Netanyahu: “Release all our hostages. Here’s a very detailed outline for a peace deal.”

Sinwar: “No.”

Biden: “Please return their hostages. Here’s a complex, multi-phase peace proposal.”

Sinwar: “Hmmm…nope.”

Leh-nerd’s personal e-mail to Yahya: “Bro, you need to release all the hostages. It’s that simple. Come on now. Here’s a random pic of my hand outline on a napkin, with a ‘Go Bills!’ phrase and a poorly drawn Bills logo in the center.”

Sinwar: “Okay, deal. You had me at ‘bro,’ good sir.”

 

1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

From the ultra progressive angle, you have to wonder if the liberation of 4 captives is cause to celebrate, or mourn the loss of 4 individuals that Hamas might have used as bargaining chips in the larger picture and the Israeli hostile incursion?   
 

@Tiberius
 

@ComradeKayAdams

 

It’s cause to celebrate. Stop being such a sh!thead.

 

Helpful life hack: I’m going to the gym right now to put the finishing touches on my flat summer tummy, while listening to Joe Marino’s Locked on Bills podcast, with a delicious VEGAN snack beforehand. Try my habits sometime instead of your 24/7 TBD PPP right-wing brain rot routine.

 

P.S.: I believe Tibsy is a standard liberal and might be insulted to be lumped in with progressive leftists like myself. But he can speak for himself…he has beautiful long hair, so he’s probably busy picking out the perfect conditioner at Wegmans at this moment.