Israel and Iran

[Tiberius]

But even then, Israel will have to contend with the challenge of who will establish law and order in Gaza. Israel cannot hand control back to Hamas or other terrorist groups, such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad, but there are no easy alternatives. The Palestinian Authority, evicted from Gaza in 2007, has little legitimacy there, and it has demonstrated little competence as a governing agency in the West Bank. Israel’s only solution may be to occupy Gaza for the foreseeable future by setting up checkpoints to monitor population movement, conducting occasional raids, and building a more robust and heavily mined border between Gaza and Israel.

Yet a protracted Israeli military occupation of Gaza is not ideal for Israel or for people in Gaza. As difficult as the military campaign will be for Israel, finding even a temporary political and governance solution for Gaza will be the most challenging part of the conflict. As a result, Israel may find its best option is to hit Hamas hard but eventually withdraw to avoid an indefinite and grinding occupation.

[Tenhigh]

16 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Biden knows Americans are held hostage in Gaza and the GOP can't even lift a finger to at least get an ambassador there? Wow

Tibs, this is just silly partisanship, and I've told you a few times.  Our embassy is fully up and running, and Stephanie Hallett, a very experienced diplomat, is the current Chargé d'Affaires.  If you want to read her bio, see here:

https://il.usembassy.gov/our-relationship/dcm/

 

As for what Biden can do, the War Powers Act theoretically limits his options, but most presidents since it's inception have found ways to easily work around it. Learn more about it below.

 

https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/news/war-powers-resolution-1973#:~:text=The Constitution divides war powers,chief of the armed forces.

 

https://www.history.com/topics/vietnam-war/war-powers-act#section_4

 

[Tiberius]

3,000? Does that not indicate that the sadistic murderers were a minority of the attackers? 

 

 

Just now, Tenhigh said:

Tibs, this is just silly partisanship, and I've told you a few times.  Our embassy is fully up and running, and Stephanie Hallett, a very experienced diplomat, is the current Chargé d'Affaires.  If you want to read her bio, see here:

https://il.usembassy.gov/our-relationship/dcm/

 

As for what Biden can do, the War Powers Act theoretically limits his options, but most presidents since it's inception have found ways to easily work around it. Learn more about it below.

 

https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/news/war-powers-resolution-1973#:~:text=The Constitution divides war powers,chief of the armed forces.

 

https://www.history.com/topics/vietnam-war/war-powers-act#section_4

 

I'm being partisan? How about the morons that won't confirm an ambassador? Tells me GOP is just getting started with f'n up our governmnet 

[Tenhigh]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

3,000? Does that not indicate that the sadistic murderers were a minority of the attackers? 

 

 

I'm being partisan? How about the morons that won't confirm an ambassador? Tells me GOP is just getting started with f'n up our governmnet 

They are being partisan too, Tibs.  We should try not to use politicians as a bellwether for how to act, it's beneath us. 

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

They are being partisan too, Tibs.  We should try not to use politicians as a bellwether for how to act, it's beneath us. 

So stop criticizing Republicans, ya ok 

 

[Irv]

Sad thing is.  We're here arguing with each other while Biden's handlers are laughing.  They planned all of this, and purposely let this happen to get votes for the senile old *****.  Dems got played again.  What a mess.  

9 hours ago, Justice said:

My parents fled back in 67. They lost their right of return. You think Palestinians trust they’d be allowed back? 

Why do you correlate protests with Jewish hatred?

And you’re a moderator huh? 

Don't test me.  

[Motorin']

8 hours ago, BillStime said:

 Like Charlottesville?

 

 

 

 

 

Turns out Trump was right about the radical left. And now they are calling for Israel to be wiped off the map "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free."

 

43 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

But even then, Israel will have to contend with the challenge of who will establish law and order in Gaza. Israel cannot hand control back to Hamas or other terrorist groups, such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad, but there are no easy alternatives. The Palestinian Authority, evicted from Gaza in 2007, has little legitimacy there, and it has demonstrated little competence as a governing agency in the West Bank. Israel’s only solution may be to occupy Gaza for the foreseeable future by setting up checkpoints to monitor population movement, conducting occasional raids, and building a more robust and heavily mined border between Gaza and Israel.

Yet a protracted Israeli military occupation of Gaza is not ideal for Israel or for people in Gaza. As difficult as the military campaign will be for Israel, finding even a temporary political and governance solution for Gaza will be the most challenging part of the conflict. As a result, Israel may find its best option is to hit Hamas hard but eventually withdraw to avoid an indefinite and grinding occupation.

 

8 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

It really is cowboys vs. indians.... Except there's 2.5 million indians trapped on a postage stamp for the last 50 years and now will be shot like fish in a barrel.

 

75% of Gazans are displaced Palestinians or children of Palestinians driven from their land.

 

Refugees vs. The Establishment. 

 

750,000 Palestinians driven from their own lands in 1948, when their people and five additional nations invaded Israel to bring about its destruction. 

 

Don't forget, they became refugees  when they tried to wipe Israel off the map the moment it was recognized as a nation. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Motorin'

[Tenhigh]

27 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

So stop criticizing Republicans, ya ok 

 

Not it all. Just don't criticize them for Nonsense.

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

23 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Turns out Trump was right about the radical left. And now they are calling for Israel to be wiped off the map "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free."

 

 

 

750,000 Palestinians driven from their own lands in 1948, when their people and five additional nations invaded Israel to bring about its destruction. 

 

Don't forget, they became refugees  when they tried to wipe Israel off the map the moment it was recognized as a nation. 

Does Israel have a right to exist?  Sure!  But does Israel have a right to exist at the expense of the Palestinians?  Most certainly not. 

 

Yes, the Arab world has made mistakes in past, but should they have to live with those misteps in perpetual punishment at the hands of their Zionist overlords?

 

There has to be some sort of power sharing solution... Like South Africa.  Israel needs to better the world, the economic world for all in region, not just it's people while creating an underclass to exploit. You'll see the violence evaporate when this is done.

[Justice]

48 minutes ago, Irv said:

Sad thing is.  We're here arguing with each other while Biden's handlers are laughing.  They planned all of this, and purposely let this happen to get votes for the senile old *****.  Dems got played again.  What a mess.  

Don't test me.  

Oh I see. I’m not the one insulting people. But ban me. Idgaf. Don’t need to be around a dictator like you. 

[SCBills]

15 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Does Israel have a right to exist?  Sure!  But does Israel have a right to exist at the expense of the Palestinians?  Most certainly not. 

 

Yes, the Arab world has made mistakes in past, but should they have to live with those misteps in perpetual punishment at the hands of their Zionist overlords?

 

There has to be some sort of power sharing solution... Like South Africa.  Israel needs to better the world, the economic world for all in region, not just it's people while creating a munderclass to exploit. You'll see the violence evaporate when this is done.

How do you believe this can be done?

 

You seem to be advocating for a two state solution?

 

Do you believe Palestinian terror groups, supported by Iran and - at least - a noticeable segment of the population given they were elected to governance, are willing to abide by that?

 

Because it seems to me, hearing directly from Hamas, and seeing the sentiment of Pro-Palestinian protesters all over the globe, that the only acceptable solution to many is a Palestinian state at the expense of Israel. 
 

Edited October 14, 2023 by SCBills

[Motorin']

16 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Does Israel have a right to exist?  Sure!  But does Israel have a right to exist at the expense of the Palestinians?  Most certainly not. 

 

Yes, the Arab world has made mistakes in past, but should they have to live with those misteps in perpetual punishment at the hands of their Zionist overlords?

 

There has to be some sort of power sharing solution... Like South Africa.  Israel needs to better the world, the economic world for all in region, not just it's people while creating an underclass to exploit. You'll see the violence evaporate when this is done.

 

Mistakes in the past? Missteps? 

 

That's what you call invading a nation in 1948? Ok. But then invading them again  in 1967? Fool me once...

 

Then the 70's were a decade of Palestinian global terror. The Munich Olympic massacre. Murdering full school buses of children. How many plane hijackings? 

 

Then resorting to mass suicide bombings throughout the 1980's and 90's targeting weddings, schools and women in the street?

 

And now sending 5000 soldiers to target and murder as many civilians as possible? 

 

This wouldn't be happening today if Gaza's government didn't commit mass murder against women, children and the elderly last week. 

 

They wouldn't be in an "open air prison" for the last 15 years if they hadn't elected a terrorist organization to run Gaza.

 

They wouldn't have been occupied in Gaza before that if they hadn't launched decades of suicide bombings and global terror attacks. 

 

What is it about the action of the Palestinians tells you that they actually want peace? Because everything about their actions show me they want death. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Motorin'

[muppy]

9 minutes ago, Justice said:

Oh I see. I’m not the one insulting people. But ban me. Idgaf. Don’t need to be around a dictator like you. 

Irv cannot ban anyone. He is a moderator in his own mind.  It's a PPP insiders joke Justice fyi

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, Irv said:

Sad thing is.  We're here arguing with each other while Biden's handlers are laughing.  They planned all of this, and purposely let this happen to get votes for the senile old *****.

So that's what it comes down to: fear that somehow this will change the election dynamics and Biden's support of Israel will make him more popular. 

[Justice]

41 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Mistakes in the past? Missteps? 

 

That's what you call invading a nation in 1948? Ok. But then invading them again  in 1967? Fool me once...

 

Then the 70's were a decade of Palestinian global terror. The Munich Olympic massacre. Murdering full school buses of children. How many plane hijackings? 

 

Then resorting to mass suicide bombings throughout the 1980's and 90's targeting weddings, schools and women in the street?

 

And now sending 5000 soldiers to target and murder as many civilians as possible? 

 

This wouldn't be happening today if Gaza's government didn't commit mass murder against women, children and the elderly last week. 

 

They wouldn't be in an "open air prison" for the last 15 years if they hadn't elected a terrorist organization to run Gaza.

 

They wouldn't have been occupied in Gaza before that if they hadn't launched decades of suicide bombings and global terror attacks. 

 

What is it about the action of the Palestinians tells you that they actually want peace? Because everything about their actions show me they want death. 

Please answer this question. If your country was taken from you at what lengths would you go to get it back from your oppressors? Will you love them or hate them? 

[SCBills]

14 minutes ago, Justice said:

Please answer this question. If your country was taken from you at what lengths would you go to get it back from your oppressors? Will you love them or hate them? 

So what’s the solution?  
 

Because it seems these people will never be ok with Israel existing in any capacity. 
 

I understand why Palestinians feel the way they do.  I understand why Israelis feel the way they do.  
 

Electing a terrorist organization to represent you, with a Charter that calls for genocide of Jews, and then that terrorist organization committing the worst terrorist attacks we’ve seen since 9/11 isn’t the way to win over anyone (outside BLM/ACAB decolonizers). 
 

I’ve long been pretty “in the middle” on this issue.  I’m now of the mindset that Israel does need to root out Hamas.  What happened a week ago cannot stand.. and Hamas has shown that they will never stop trying to erase Jews off the planet. 
 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by SCBills

[Justice]

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

So what’s the solution?  
 

Because it seems these people will never be ok with Israel existing in any capacity. 
 

I understand why Palestinians feel the way they do.  I understand why Israelis feel the way they do.  
 

Electing a terrorist organization to represent you, with a Charter that calls for genocide of Jews, and then that terrorist organization committing the worst terrorist attacks we’ve seen since 9/11 isn’t the way to win over anyone (outside BLM/ACAB decolonizers). 
 

I’ve long been pretty “in the middle” on this issue.  I’m now of the mindset that Israel does need to root out Hamas.  What happened a week ago cannot stand.. and Hamas has shown that they will never stop trying to erase Jews off the planet. 

I can imagine back in 67 they still had hope to get their entire country back. These days I’m sure that hope is gone and they’d gladly take the 67 borders back. 
 

Peace needs time. It needs work. What it doesn’t need is check points, rolling blackouts, incursions, settlements surrounded by armed bases, olive trees being bulldozed, collective punishments, homes demolished because they didn’t get permits to do slight renovations (they don’t give them the permits when they apply anyways), roads only one group can drive on (I can’t even drive on them and I’m an American citizen), and the water being cut off while your settlement neighbors have water sprinklers on. I can go on and on. 
 

A true two state solution is the only answer and over time radicals will die off, the bitterness of war will die off, the hate will subside, and the two sides can live side by side in happiness. Like I said this would take time and patience. 

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, Justice said:

I can imagine back in 67 they still had hope to get their entire country back. These days I’m sure that hope is gone and they’d gladly take the 67 borders back. 
 

Peace needs time. It needs work. What it doesn’t need is check points, rolling blackouts, incursions, settlements surrounded by armed bases, olive trees being bulldozed, collective punishments, homes demolished because they didn’t get permits to do slight renovations (they don’t give them the permits when they apply anyways), roads only one group can drive on (I can’t even drive on them and I’m an American citizen), and the water being cut off while your settlement neighbors have water sprinklers on. I can go on and on. 
 

A true two state solution is the only answer and over time radicals will die off, the bitterness of war will die off, the hate will subside, and the two sides can live side by side in happiness. Like I said this would take time and patience. 

Perhaps… 22 years later and American views towards Islam have stabilized since 9/11.  
 

Even longer back we had a time consisting of Japanese internment camps. 
 

Time can heal wounds, but we don’t have the history Israel/Palestine have… and after this past weekend, I just don’t know how peace resurfaces as long as Hamas is present in any capacity.  

I’m sure another form of Hamas will emerge from the rubble, but Israel/Hamas seems to have gone beyond the point of reclamation. 

[Justice]

I see you edited your message. Yeah I know I have my tinfoil hat on again, but nobody can convince me otherwise. Hamas was started by Israel. They were funded by Israel since day one. They’re still being funded by Israel. Israel needs a Hamas. Former PM Olmert said so himself. They were started to be an opposition group to fatah and to divide the Palestinian people. Whoever said their job was done?? Who’s to say the partnership ended? As far as I’m concerned EVERYTHING Hamas has ever done has favored Israel. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Justice

[Motorin']

28 minutes ago, Justice said:

Please answer this question. If your country was taken from you at what lengths would you go to get it back from your oppressors? Will you love them or hate them? 

 

The Ottoman Empire? 

 

Palestine was never a country to be taken. The name itself refers to the land that the Philistines used to live in.

 

It was a geographical region, like the mid-west, governed by the Ottoman Empire for 800 years until they lost World War I.

 

The land that consisted of the region of Palestine became Jordan, Lebanon and parts of Syria and Iraq. 

 

The very notion of a "Palestinian" people was born out the the muslim refusal to accept a sovereign Israel. They claimed all of the land that comprises Israel, and the Palestinian identity emerged in opposition to Israel.

 

Individual Arabs that now identify as Palestinians had their land taken, as a result of their attempt to destroy Israel. But they had no country to take. 

 

Let's be real. 90% of Palestine was turned into four different Arab states. Then the world demanded the remaining 10% be split into two states. 

 

Had the so called Palestinians accepted a two state solution in 1948 they would have a country of their own today. 

 

If they had accepted a two state solution in 1967 they would have a country of their own today.

 

The same could be said of the 1970's, 80's, 90's and 2000's.

 

The truth is they don't want peace. What they want is all of Israel to be theirs.

 

What would I do if I was born there in the 1970's and may family had their home taken because they launched a war against Israel 10 years earlier and then continued global terror attacks for decades? 

 

I would have tried my best to get the f out of such a backwards, violent, hate filled hell hole. 

 

Edit: let me ask you a question. Why is it that  none of the people criticizing Israel for their response are demanding  Hamas release the hostages? 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Motorin'