B-Man Posted March 6 Posted March 6 US to Israel: How About a Pause to Build Up Hamas' Trust? How about go pound sand? Joe Biden, along with other Western allies of Israel, desperately need a pause in the fighting for their own domestic-politics concerns. And so does Israel, which is why they continue to engage negotiations for a hostage deal. But somehow the dynamics of a war started by Hamas and the Gazans have been inverted into a situation where the onus for trust-building has landed on the country attacked. The "US" hasn't grown frustrated with Israel; Americans have much greater clarity on this conflict than do Joe Biden, Antony Blinken, and the rest of the progressive clique running policy these days. Two weeks ago, a Harvard/Harris CAPS showed 82% of Americans supporting Israel, and 67% opposed to any cease-fire in which Hamas remains in Gaza and without the return of all hostages. In other words, hostages first, then pauses. Not only is Biden and Blinken getting this backward, now they want Israel to pause their military operations in Gaza in a war started by the Gazans to build "trust" with the terrorists. And for what? Has Hamas offered any moderation of their demands during this entire process? Nope: https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2024/03/06/us-to-israel-how-about-a-pause-to-build-up-hamas-trust-n3784176 2
sherpa Posted March 6 Posted March 6 56 minutes ago, B-Man said: US to Israel: How About a Pause to Build Up Hamas' Trust? How about go pound sand? Joe Biden, along with other Western allies of Israel, desperately need a pause in the fighting for their own domestic-politics concerns. And so does Israel, which is why they continue to engage negotiations for a hostage deal. But somehow the dynamics of a war started by Hamas and the Gazans have been inverted into a situation where the onus for trust-building has landed on the country attacked. The "US" hasn't grown frustrated with Israel; Americans have much greater clarity on this conflict than do Joe Biden, Antony Blinken, and the rest of the progressive clique running policy these days. Two weeks ago, a Harvard/Harris CAPS showed 82% of Americans supporting Israel, and 67% opposed to any cease-fire in which Hamas remains in Gaza and without the return of all hostages. In other words, hostages first, then pauses. Not only is Biden and Blinken getting this backward, now they want Israel to pause their military operations in Gaza in a war started by the Gazans to build "trust" with the terrorists. And for what? Has Hamas offered any moderation of their demands during this entire process? Nope: This can't be. I thought a ceasefire was going to be in place by Monday, as suggested by the Biden Administration just ahead of the Michigan primary. You mean the sides were not close? Were we played? 1 2
Tiberius Posted March 6 Author Posted March 6 1 hour ago, B-Man said: US to Israel: How About a Pause to Build Up Hamas' Trust? How about go pound sand? Joe Biden, along with other Western allies of Israel, desperately need a pause in the fighting for their own domestic-politics concerns. And so does Israel, which is why they continue to engage negotiations for a hostage deal. But somehow the dynamics of a war started by Hamas and the Gazans have been inverted into a situation where the onus for trust-building has landed on the country attacked. The "US" hasn't grown frustrated with Israel; Americans have much greater clarity on this conflict than do Joe Biden, Antony Blinken, and the rest of the progressive clique running policy these days. Two weeks ago, a Harvard/Harris CAPS showed 82% of Americans supporting Israel, and 67% opposed to any cease-fire in which Hamas remains in Gaza and without the return of all hostages. In other words, hostages first, then pauses. Not only is Biden and Blinken getting this backward, now they want Israel to pause their military operations in Gaza in a war started by the Gazans to build "trust" with the terrorists. And for what? Has Hamas offered any moderation of their demands during this entire process? Nope: https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2024/03/06/us-to-israel-how-about-a-pause-to-build-up-hamas-trust-n3784176 67% of Americans support no cease fire? Ya right 1 1
sherpa Posted March 6 Posted March 6 38 minutes ago, Tiberius said: 67% of Americans support no cease fire? Ya right This is the kind of suggestion that makes me think some Americans are grossly ignorant. Here's a postulate......American citizens do not control Israeli life or decisions. The Israelis are the ones who have been missiled, raped, abducted, burned, tortured, held hostage and murdered. They have every right to demand that their government eliminate this threat, and they are doing just that. They don't want a ceasefire. They want Hamas and anyone else who does this eliminated, so it doesn't happen again. That may well include Hezbollah, which is fare greater a threat. This alleged "claim" that the US citizen's view can or should drive Israeli policies, or has any right to, is preposterous. The barbaric actions on Oct 7th have sealed the fate of Hamas, and what is going on is a justified response which will, hopefully lead to the elimination of them. The claim that US citizens have any real "standing," to use a legal term, is arrogant and senseless. They have as much claim as the UN General Assembly, and Security Council. Stupid, useless actions. No effect. Just noise. 3 1
Tiberius Posted March 7 Author Posted March 7 18 hours ago, sherpa said: This is the kind of suggestion that makes me think some Americans are grossly ignorant. Here's a postulate......American citizens do not control Israeli life or decisions. The Israelis are the ones who have been missiled, raped, abducted, burned, tortured, held hostage and murdered. They have every right to demand that their government eliminate this threat, and they are doing just that. They don't want a ceasefire. They want Hamas and anyone else who does this eliminated, so it doesn't happen again. That may well include Hezbollah, which is fare greater a threat. This alleged "claim" that the US citizen's view can or should drive Israeli policies, or has any right to, is preposterous. The barbaric actions on Oct 7th have sealed the fate of Hamas, and what is going on is a justified response which will, hopefully lead to the elimination of them. The claim that US citizens have any real "standing," to use a legal term, is arrogant and senseless. They have as much claim as the UN General Assembly, and Security Council. Stupid, useless actions. No effect. Just noise. If we are funding them and they are influencing our politics then we do have a say. "Shut up and send more money" isn't going to cut it 1 1
Tommy Callahan Posted March 7 Posted March 7 3 minutes ago, Tiberius said: If we are funding them and they are influencing our politics Ukraine says hello. 1
Westside Posted March 7 Posted March 7 22 hours ago, Doc said: LOL! Who the ***** cares? These terrorist sympathizers never cease to amaze me. Comrade Kay is a good name for her. 1
Doc Posted March 7 Posted March 7 15 minutes ago, Westside said: These terrorist sympathizers never cease to amaze me. Comrade Kay is a good name for her. I just found the "annoys me" to be funny. When it's a nobody saying it, I have to laugh. 2
Coffeesforclosers Posted March 7 Posted March 7 On 3/5/2024 at 10:29 PM, ComradeKayAdams said: I would call those war crimes from Hamas, yes. Your “whataboutism” debate tactics annoy me. You don’t see me arguing that the Arab world should level Haifa and Tel Aviv because of the Gaza genocide. Let’s imagine this scenario: a small group of armed killers are loose in your neighborhood. They are hiding in backyards and bushes and basements…possibly digging tunnels between properties, too. The SWAT team arrives, barricades the neighborhood perimeter, hurriedly tells everyone to leave the premises, proceeds to firebomb all the houses, and ends up killing dozens of residents in the process…including your loved ones! How would you feel?? Would you accept this outcome as the necessary cost of stopping crime? Or would you not-so-politely request that the police force consider more calculated and more precise measures and protocols? Kay, I appreciate the fact that your posts are tweet free, reflect original thinking, and use polysyllabic words. This subforum does not. Look forward to being trolled for not fitting into terminally online meme complexes. Do, however, enjoy observing what a successful "fill the space with *****" influence operation looks like. 1 1
B-Man Posted March 7 Posted March 7 Hmmmm. Egypt: Hamas Isn't Going to Agree to a Ceasefire This is a potentially important update for all of the people who are out there screaming in the streets and demanding a "ceasefire now!" According to Egypt, which has been involved in the ongoing negotiations, Hamas has already been offered a ceasefire. Several of them, actually. They have consistently turned them down and will do so again this week. Most recently, Hamas was offered a six-week ceasefire that would take them fully through the holy month of Ramadan, along with a very generous ratio in a prisoner-for-hostages exchange and large increases in aid deliveries during the pause in the fighting. Senior Hamas official Osama Hamdan has already released a statement saying that they will not accept the terms. (Associated Press) https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2024/03/07/egypt-hamas-isnt-going-to-agree-to-a-ceasefire-n3784248 .
Justice Posted March 7 Posted March 7 On 3/5/2024 at 1:26 PM, leh-nerd skin-erd said: I've stayed out of this dialogue for the most part. What I know about this conflict, International politics and never-ending hostilities could fill a thimble. That said, if I have a tendency to believe one side or the other more frequently, it would be the Israeli side. I recognize both sides play a role in the conflict, that the truth is often in the middle, and that governments lie, manipulate and coerce on a regular basis. There are precious few truly good guys here. From the outside looking in, I'd think the Israeli's care deeply about their hostages, and would love nothing more than to get them back as unscathed as possible at this point. I'd think that applies at the top of the government as well, but the government is pragmatic and understands the likely outcome of all this. On the flip side, I would think the citizens of Gaza feel the same way about loss and pain of their people, those lost in this conflict and those they feel were imprisoned unjustifiably. Their suffering is horrific, and sadly, it seems like that will continue. The difference maker for me here is Hamas, and I believe leadership embraces death, terror and despair as a means of controlling and consolidating power. As the controlling influence in that region for nearly 20 years, I guess the question I come back to is this: What should the ordinary, everyday citizens do about Hamas? Embrace them? Reject them? Negotiate? Here's a link to an opinion piece from New York Magazine: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/dont-blame-gazans-for-hamas.html I read this, realize I'm 7 or 8 paragraphs in and can point to nothing of value the author is bringing to the table, and this article seems at least mostly pro-Gaza. I get to the end and no solution seems forthcoming. If I had a friend nearby who was Palestinian, I guess I would ask for his/her opinion and clarity on this issue. Since I don't, I'll ask you. Assume a cease-fire, the release of all hostages and an acceptable number released from Israeli prison today. What happens tomorrow? The resistance will never end until Palestinians are free. They don’t need the entire country of Israel but they do require the 67 borders and the right of return. Imagine not being allowed to return to the country you were born in! On 3/5/2024 at 2:51 PM, Doc said: A confession...of what? That I believe Hamas deserves to be wiped off the face of the Earth? Guilty as charged then. You said people can’t see past their nose. That’s you. That’s your confession. On 3/5/2024 at 4:02 PM, sherpa said: At some point, rational people, if they exist in this realm, will realize that every single on of these Iranian surrogates is doing their bidding at immense cost and no hope for success. Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis are all going to lose this battle. The Palestinian civilian population will bear the brunt, but the struggle to eliminate Israel is a stupid, losing battle that will never succeed and needs to be abandoned. The faster that is realized, the lower the body count. Before Oct 7th happened 2023 was the deadliest year for children in the West Bank. Let that ***** sink in. On 3/5/2024 at 6:15 PM, Andy1 said: Back in December there was a public opinion poll of Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. At that time, only 10% believed Hamas had committed war crimes. Hamas was still the most popular political party. Support for armed violence against Israel increased to 69% compared to 58% before October 7. A rational person would conclude that decades of violence against Israel only brings pain and suffering to Palestinians with no progress towards their desire for a stable, peaceful future, but there is no evidence that they think that way. It seems to me that the only (remote) possibility for peace is for both Hamas and Netanyahu to be gone from power. New leaders are needed on both sides. https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll 90 English press release 13 Dec 2023 Final New.pdf For the millionth time if someone invaded your country what would you do? WHO the f are you to judge how someone resists? You can’t even acknowledge a people lost their land and country and are fighting to get it back! You really should walk a mile in their shoes first before yapping. Ever expanding settlements in the WB and you mofos still talk *****. You’re a bunch of intellectually dishonest ass mofos. 1
Justice Posted March 7 Posted March 7 On 3/6/2024 at 1:59 AM, sherpa said: I would start by telling the armed killers to stop launching warhead carrying rockets into civilian populations. I would tell these "armed killers" that killing, kidnapping in order to hold hostages, torturing, raping and filming these events would not be tolerated. I would hesitate to judge the response until I had some idea of what they were actually doing, and what measures they were taking to prevent loss of life. I would never believe the casualty counts provided by the attackers, who are completely incapable of ever telling the truth while their leaders hide in foreign countries and count their riches while sacrificing thousands of innocent people. I would hold the attackers responsible for doing nothing in seventeen years of "rule" other than building an underground system in civilian areas including hospitals and schools for the sole purpose of waging war to eliminate a neighbor that is not going to be eliminated. Why don’t you tell all the drug dealers to stop having turf wars? How about you speak to all the young people in America to prevent them from shooting up schools? This is all your fault man. You should’ve done something. Foh.
The Frankish Reich Posted March 7 Posted March 7 10 minutes ago, Justice said: Ever expanding settlements in the WB Israel is systematically enacting its own From the River to the Sea policy. 2
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted March 7 Posted March 7 3 minutes ago, Justice said: The resistance will never end until Palestinians are free. They don’t need the entire country of Israel but they do require the 67 borders and the right of return. Imagine not being allowed to return to the country you were born in! This reminds me of the article I cited. It's poetic, I can feel the emotion, but what does it mean in practice? Do you support continued support of Hamas by Palestinians as it currently exists today? If you were in Israel, how much land would you cede to those intent on your destruction? Would it be enough for the extremists? Would it be too much for extremists in Isreal? Are you advocating for Israel to 'give back' 50%, 40%, 35%? As to the 'land you were born in', I'll step off the ledge a bit here (again, I recognize the complexity of who thinks what in that part of the globe) and say the argument/claim of ownership of the land is judged in terms much, much greater than the last hundred years. Do you see a reasonable path for peaceful resolution? From my perspective, the entire conflict boils down to "It's us or them" on both sides of the ledger, and each party is always going to choose "us".
Justice Posted March 7 Posted March 7 18 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said: Lies lies lies and more lies. They didn’t kill 1200. Israel killed many of their own. Ever seen the photo of all the damaged cars? Hamas could not have done all that. There are videos of IDF personnel admitting to shooting at their own. 19 minutes ago, B-Man said: Hmmmm. Egypt: Hamas Isn't Going to Agree to a Ceasefire This is a potentially important update for all of the people who are out there screaming in the streets and demanding a "ceasefire now!" According to Egypt, which has been involved in the ongoing negotiations, Hamas has already been offered a ceasefire. Several of them, actually. They have consistently turned them down and will do so again this week. Most recently, Hamas was offered a six-week ceasefire that would take them fully through the holy month of Ramadan, along with a very generous ratio in a prisoner-for-hostages exchange and large increases in aid deliveries during the pause in the fighting. Senior Hamas official Osama Hamdan has already released a statement saying that they will not accept the terms. (Associated Press) https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2024/03/07/egypt-hamas-isnt-going-to-agree-to-a-ceasefire-n3784248 . Who the hell wants to resume getting binned in six weeks? Are you serious?
Tiberius Posted March 7 Author Posted March 7 2 hours ago, Tommy Callahan said: Ukraine says hello. Yup, and we are heavily involved in their war plans and strategy 1
Justice Posted March 7 Posted March 7 3 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: This reminds me of the article I cited. It's poetic, I can feel the emotion, but what does it mean in practice? Do you support continued support of Hamas by Palestinians as it currently exists today? If you were in Israel, how much land would you cede to those intent on your destruction? Would it be enough for the extremists? Would it be too much for extremists in Isreal? Are you advocating for Israel to 'give back' 50%, 40%, 35%? As to the 'land you were born in', I'll step off the ledge a bit here (again, I recognize the complexity of who thinks what in that part of the globe) and say the argument/claim of ownership of the land is judged in terms much, much greater than the last hundred years. Do you see a reasonable path for peaceful resolution? From my perspective, the entire conflict boils down to "It's us or them" on both sides of the ledger, and each party is always going to choose "us". I’ve made myself clear. The 67 borders are sufficient with no strings attached and no settlements. The extremists will eventually fade away under those conditions. 1
Pokebball Posted March 7 Posted March 7 Just now, Justice said: I’ve made myself clear. The 67 borders are sufficient with no strings attached and no settlements. The extremists will eventually fade away under those conditions. The extremists will fade away? 2
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