Israel and Iran

[Pokebball]

2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Good point. I've been thinking along the same lines. It's a difficult comparison because we're talking about a densely populated sliver of land, not the wide of expanse of theoretical attacker Canada/Mexico. But isn't it important that we didn't try to bomb Afghanistan into an uninhabitable place? We attacked Taliban strongholds and training camps, and then embarked on an ill-advised nation-building operation. I'm not sure there is anything comparable.

Afghanistan simply can't be compared.  

[US Egg]

They wouldn’t lie…..

 

 

Hamas are animals and always will be.

[Irv]

I noted quite a while back that Gaza should be nuked.  Now here we are.  What a mess.  

 

 

Edited March 5 by Irv

[Tiberius]

8 hours ago, US Egg said:

They wouldn’t lie…..

 

 

Hamas are animals and always will be.

Yes, they are sh it

 

Most Palestinians are not Hamas. But with Israel mass starving people, I bet they will have a  lot more recruits

[US Egg]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Yes, they are sh it

 

Most Palestinians are not Hamas. But with Israel mass starving people, I bet they will have a  lot more recruits

Yeah, and the Hamas recruits won’t rape and mutilate. 

[Justice]

9 hours ago, US Egg said:

They wouldn’t lie…..

 

 

Hamas are animals and always will be.

So now we believe the UN? Lol. Attaboy. Let’s veto everything that comes from the UN and then cite the UN’s reports when it’s beneficial to us. Foh. What happened to all those so called lies that came from the UN? We trust this one though. Gotcha. Foh. 

On 3/3/2024 at 8:25 PM, Andy1 said:

An immediate cease fire on both sides should happen immediately after the release of all Israeli hostages. The path to peace is obvious. Netanyahu doesn’t care what Biden thinks. He would rather see Trump be elected in November.  Politics in America is not going to influence military decisions during war for Israel. Hamas seems happy to sacrifice the lives of their friends and families for their cause. That has been their plan. The war will end sooner or later, the timing is up to Hamas. 
 

What happens after the war is the big unknown. 

 

Earlier in the conflict Netanyahu said releasing the hostages won’t end the siege. The Israelis have killed a lot of their own hostages. They dgaf about their hostages. 

On 3/4/2024 at 8:57 AM, Doc said:

 

Should have thought twice about October 7th, then.  But people often can't see beyond their noses.

Every accusation is a confession. 

[US Egg]

1 hour ago, Justice said:

So now we believe the UN? Lol. Attaboy. Let’s veto everything that comes from the UN and then cite the UN’s reports when it’s beneficial to us. Foh. What happened to all those so called lies that came from the UN? We trust this one though. Gotcha. Foh. 

See someone broke out of their cage.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

50 minutes ago, Justice said:

So now we believe the UN? Lol. Attaboy. Let’s veto everything that comes from the UN and then cite the UN’s reports when it’s beneficial to us. Foh. What happened to all those so called lies that came from the UN? We trust this one though. Gotcha. Foh. 

Earlier in the conflict Netanyahu said releasing the hostages won’t end the siege. The Israelis have killed a lot of their own hostages. They dgaf about their hostages. 

Every accusation is a confession. 

I've stayed out of this dialogue for the most part.  What I know about this conflict, International politics and never-ending hostilities could fill a thimble.  That said, if I have a tendency to believe one side or the other more frequently, it would be the Israeli side.  I recognize both sides play a role in the conflict, that the truth is often in the middle, and that governments lie, manipulate and coerce on a regular basis. There are precious few truly good guys here. 

 

From the outside looking in, I'd think the Israeli's care deeply about their hostages, and would love nothing more than to get them back as unscathed as possible at this point.   I'd think that applies at the top of the government as well, but the government is pragmatic and understands the likely outcome of all this.  

 

On the flip side, I would think the citizens of Gaza feel the same way about loss and pain of their people, those lost in this conflict and those they feel were imprisoned unjustifiably.  Their suffering is horrific, and sadly, it seems like that will continue. 

 

The difference maker for me here is Hamas, and I believe leadership embraces death, terror and despair as a means of controlling and consolidating power.  As the controlling influence in that region for nearly 20 years, I guess the question I come back to is this:  What should the ordinary, everyday citizens do about Hamas?  Embrace them?  Reject them?  Negotiate?  

 

Here's a link to an opinion piece from New York Magazine:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/dont-blame-gazans-for-hamas.html

 

I read this, realize I'm 7 or 8 paragraphs in and can point to nothing of value the author is bringing to the table, and this article seems at least mostly pro-Gaza.  I get to the end and no solution seems forthcoming.  

 

If I had a friend nearby who was Palestinian, I guess I would ask for his/her opinion and clarity on this issue.  Since I don't, I'll ask you.  Assume a cease-fire, the release of all hostages and an acceptable number released from Israeli prison today. 

 

What happens tomorrow?  

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Justice said:

Every accusation is a confession. 

 

A confession...of what?  That I believe Hamas deserves to be wiped off the face of the Earth?  Guilty as charged then.

[sherpa]

At some point, rational people, if they exist in this realm, will realize that every single on of these Iranian surrogates is doing their bidding at immense cost and no hope for success.

Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis are all going to lose this battle.

 

The Palestinian civilian population will bear the brunt, but the struggle to eliminate Israel is a stupid, losing battle that will never succeed and needs to be abandoned.

 

The faster that is realized, the lower the body count.

[Andy1]

Back in December there was a public opinion poll of Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. At that time, only 10% believed Hamas had committed war crimes. Hamas was still the most popular political party. Support for armed violence against Israel increased to 69% compared to 58% before October 7. A rational person would conclude that decades of violence against Israel only brings pain and suffering to Palestinians with no progress towards their desire for a stable, peaceful future, but there is no evidence that they think that way. 
 

It seems to me that the only (remote) possibility for peace is for both Hamas and Netanyahu to be gone from power. New leaders are needed on both sides. 
 

https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll 90 English press release 13 Dec 2023 Final New.pdf

[sherpa]

11 minutes ago, Andy1 said:

 

It seems to me that the only (remote) possibility for peace is for both Hamas and Netanyahu to be gone from power. New leaders are needed on both sides. 
 

 

Israel can do its normal democratic thing.

Hamas needs to be eliminated.

Seventeen years, and all they have done is build an underground tunnel system designed to wage war against Israel, under the idiotic support of Iran who is determined to use surrogates to chase some foolish and unattainable goal to eliminate Israel.

 

Again, Hamas needs to be eliminated.

[Big Blitz]

Idiocracy.  
 

 

“France just needs to do its thing.”

 

—-Thomas Jefferson, 1792 probably.  

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 3/4/2024 at 8:57 AM, Doc said:

Should have thought twice about October 7th, then.  But people often can't see beyond their noses.

 

Um…ok….well, collective punishment is an official war crime. The total number of Hamas combatants was estimated at about 30,000 last year. The rest of the 2+ million affected Gazans had nothing to do with October 7 and were simply living their lives before Israel initiated the genocide. An overwhelming majority of Gazans never even voted for Hamas back in 2006. And even if they do support Hamas, that’s kind of like saying every American who supported the Bush Jr. administration during the second Iraq War and the Afghanistan War deserved death at the hands of radical Islamic terrorists.

 

On 3/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, Tiberius said:

Thanks for that. Nothing like seeing it all laid out.

 

These points really make me think this is about never ending war. Getting the situation so that its almost guaranteed to repeat itself.

 

And American has also done some fine thing overseas (Japan and South Korea), along with the bad things.

 

Yes, endless war is profitable for the American military-industrial complex. AIPAC campaign donations help, too. Interminable warfare also helps keep Netanyahu and his far-right sociopathic friends in power. I do believe Israel has some sort of end goal, however: full Palestinian land seizure and the hope that the international community takes in the displaced Palestinian population.

 

The bottom line is that Status Quo Joe has plenty of leverage to immediately end this genocide that he chooses not to exercise. Reagan successfully pressured Israel during the 1982 Lebanon War. H.W. Bush played hardball with West Bank settlers in 1991. Biden should be taking a similarly active and aggressive role in negotiations that include demands for a permanent ceasefire, hostage releases, financial remediation, immediate humanitarian relief, and outlines for a two-state (or preferably one-state) solution. Otherwise, all our military aid to Israel should be promptly withheld.

 

One would think that the specter of losing to Trump in November would be ample motivation to BLEEPING do something here!! We’re seeing multiple dead canaries in this Gazan crisis coal mine: the “Uncommitted” primary votes in Michigan (and elsewhere tonight on Super Tuesday??), nationwide poll shifts reflecting a great moral awakening for the plight of Palestinians, and consecutive months with sagging poll numbers behind Trump. This is why I’m beginning to theorize that the DNC and the center-left corporate oligarchs will push to elevate someone like Gretchen Whitmer at the August convention. She is salable as a tabula rasa for the Gaza crisis, checks the female/age/swing state/governorship boxes, is strong on the flagship issue of abortion, and still has progressive oratorical pivoting potential.

 

Regarding my foreign policy cynicism: I rarely mention the good aspects of American foreign policy because too much back-patting distracts from elucidating all the grave problems with American imperialism. That’s just how Commie Kay rolls.

 

On 3/4/2024 at 10:03 AM, All_Pro_Bills said:

Well done.  But the world doesn't run strictly on some rules based order.  Under the current set of arrangements and alliances, no US administration is ever going to allow Israel to face any formal charges of genocide or other actions consistent with "war crimes".  No matter their intent or how many civilians they end up killing.  Like it or not Washington wields both formal and informal "veto power" and decides who will be held accountable and who will be allowed to "break" the rules.

 

I think economic restraints will ultimately prevail in ways that institutions of international law cannot. Israel is rapidly devolving to “pariah state” status. BDS movements are picking up global momentum. Israel’s economy has already shrunk by 20%. Local businesses are suffering from both Israeli conscription and the loss of Gazan migrant workers. The Netanyahu regime is provoking an expensive multi-front war with Hezbollah, Egypt, and other Arab nations. Even the United States may eventually resort to pulling back the purse strings, at the behest of progressive Democrats and all other Americans with a functioning moral compass.

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

Um…ok….well, collective punishment is an official war crime. The total number of Hamas combatants was estimated at about 30,000 last year. The rest of the 2+ million affected Gazans had nothing to do with October 7 and were simply living their lives before Israel initiated the genocide. An overwhelming majority of Gazans never even voted for Hamas back in 2006. And even if they do support Hamas, that’s kind of like saying every American who supported the Bush Jr. administration during the second Iraq War and the Afghanistan War deserved death at the hands of radical Islamic terrorists.

 

What do you call using (your own, no less) citizens as human shields and hiding military command centers in hospitals and schools?  Not war crimes?

[ComradeKayAdams]

49 minutes ago, Doc said:

What do you call using (your own, no less) citizens as human shields and hiding military command centers in hospitals and schools?  Not war crimes?

 

I would call those war crimes from Hamas, yes. Your “whataboutism” debate tactics annoy me. You don’t see me arguing that the Arab world should level Haifa and Tel Aviv because of the Gaza genocide.

 

Let’s imagine this scenario: a small group of armed killers are loose in your neighborhood. They are hiding in backyards and bushes and basements…possibly digging tunnels between properties, too. The SWAT team arrives, barricades the neighborhood perimeter, hurriedly tells everyone to leave the premises, proceeds to firebomb all the houses, and ends up killing dozens of residents in the process…including your loved ones! How would you feel?? Would you accept this outcome as the necessary cost of stopping crime? Or would you not-so-politely request that the police force consider more calculated and more precise measures and protocols?

[sherpa]

3 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Let’s imagine this scenario: a small group of armed killers are loose in your neighborhood. They are hiding in backyards and bushes and basements…possibly digging tunnels between properties, too. The SWAT team arrives, barricades the neighborhood perimeter, hurriedly tells everyone to leave the premises, proceeds to firebomb all the houses, and ends up killing dozens of residents in the process…including your loved ones! How would you feel?? Would you accept this outcome as the necessary cost of stopping crime? Or would you not-so-politely request that the police force consider more calculated and more precise measures and p rotocols?

 

I would start by telling the armed killers to stop launching warhead carrying rockets into civilian populations.

I would tell these "armed killers" that killing, kidnapping in order to hold hostages, torturing, raping and filming these events would not be tolerated.

I would hesitate to judge the response until I had some idea of what they were actually doing, and what measures they were taking to prevent loss of life.

I would never believe the casualty counts provided by the attackers, who are completely incapable of ever telling the truth while their leaders hide in foreign countries and count their riches while sacrificing thousands of innocent people.

I would hold the attackers responsible for doing nothing in seventeen years of "rule" other than building an underground system in civilian areas including hospitals and schools for the sole purpose of waging war to eliminate a neighbor that is not going to be eliminated.

 

[Doc Brown]

6 hours ago, Doc said:

 

What do you call using (your own, no less) citizens as human shields and hiding military command centers in hospitals and schools?  Not war crimes?

Is there a term worse than war crimes?

 

6 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Um…ok….well, collective punishment is an official war crime. The total number of Hamas combatants was estimated at about 30,000 last year. The rest of the 2+ million affected Gazans had nothing to do with October 7 and were simply living their lives before Israel initiated the genocide. An overwhelming majority of Gazans never even voted for Hamas back in 2006. And even if they do support Hamas, that’s kind of like saying every American who supported the Bush Jr. administration during the second Iraq War and the Afghanistan War deserved death at the hands of radical Islamic terrorists.

No it's not.  Horrible analogy.  It would be the Israelites who support Netanyahu deserve death at the hands of Hamas.

Edited March 6 by Doc Brown

[Tiberius]

11 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

 

Yes, endless war is profitable for the American military-industrial complex. AIPAC campaign donations help, too. Interminable warfare also helps keep Netanyahu and his far-right sociopathic friends in power. I do believe Israel has some sort of end goal, however: full Palestinian land seizure and the hope that the international community takes in the displaced Palestinian population.

 

The bottom line is that Status Quo Joe has plenty of leverage to immediately end this genocide that he chooses not to exercise. Reagan successfully pressured Israel during the 1982 Lebanon War. H.W. Bush played hardball with West Bank settlers in 1991. Biden should be taking a similarly active and aggressive role in negotiations that include demands for a permanent ceasefire, hostage releases, financial remediation, immediate humanitarian relief, and outlines for a two-state (or preferably one-state) solution. Otherwise, all our military aid to Israel should be promptly withheld.

 

One would think that the specter of losing to Trump in November would be ample motivation to BLEEPING do something here!! We’re seeing multiple dead canaries in this Gazan crisis coal mine: the “Uncommitted” primary votes in Michigan (and elsewhere tonight on Super Tuesday??), nationwide poll shifts reflecting a great moral awakening for the plight of Palestinians, and consecutive months with sagging poll numbers behind Trump. This is why I’m beginning to theorize that the DNC and the center-left corporate oligarchs will push to elevate someone like Gretchen Whitmer at the August convention. She is salable as a tabula rasa for the Gaza crisis, checks the female/age/swing state/governorship boxes, is strong on the flagship issue of abortion, and still has progressive oratorical pivoting potential.

 

Regarding my foreign policy cynicism: I rarely mention the good aspects of American foreign policy because too much back-patting distracts from elucidating all the grave problems with American imperialism. That’s just how Commie Kay rolls.

 

 

 

Keep rolling Comie Kay! Foreign policy is so tough because the rest of the world doesn't vote in our elections...directly. Hopefully the "City upon a hill" message shins through for a better world

[Doc]

11 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

I would call those war crimes from Hamas, yes. Your “whataboutism” debate tactics annoy me. You don’t see me arguing that the Arab world should level Haifa and Tel Aviv because of the Gaza genocide.

 

Let’s imagine this scenario: a small group of armed killers are loose in your neighborhood. They are hiding in backyards and bushes and basements…possibly digging tunnels between properties, too. The SWAT team arrives, barricades the neighborhood perimeter, hurriedly tells everyone to leave the premises, proceeds to firebomb all the houses, and ends up killing dozens of residents in the process…including your loved ones! How would you feel?? Would you accept this outcome as the necessary cost of stopping crime? Or would you not-so-politely request that the police force consider more calculated and more precise measures and protocols?

 

LOL!  Who the ***** cares?