Justice Posted March 1 Posted March 1 1 hour ago, Andy1 said: Just presenting this for historical context. There is a reason why there are walls over there today. Please tell me. I went there in 86 and seen for myself why the intifada started. But I’m sure you know more than me…. F’n bot On 2/28/2024 at 2:59 PM, sherpa said: When do they hold Hamas accountable for starting this? It is always the same. Start a war, get your ass kicked, appeal to the world for sympathy. I hold them accountable. And so do many others. I also understand why they did it even though it was stupid AF. When will it be enough though? The Bill has been paid. How many have to die before you change your tune? You… not the govt… not Israel. You. 2 1
The Frankish Reich Posted March 1 Posted March 1 8 minutes ago, Justice said: Please tell me. I went there in 86 and seen for myself why the intifada started. But I’m sure you know more than me…. F’n bot I hold them accountable. And so do many others. I also understand why they did it even though it was stupid AF. When will it be enough though? The Bill has been paid. How many have to die before you change your tune? You… not the govt… not Israel. You. I do agree with your last point. Quite some time ago this clearly shifted from "elimination of Hamas weapons/tunnels" to full-on vengeance. 1
sherpa Posted March 1 Posted March 1 10 minutes ago, Justice said: When will it be enough though? The Bill has been paid. How many have to die before you change your tune? You… not the govt… not Israel. You. Easy question. It will be enough when they are gone. The "bill" will come due again and again until they are gone. This ends today if Hamas releases all the hostages and their leaders get on the next transportation to Iran, or wherever they can spend their acquired wealth, which is apparently significant, from years of abuse. They can then spend their lives looking over their shoulders, because Israel is know for settling scores. (See the Munich massacre of the Israeli Olympic team and what happened those those involved). It is not enough to allow them to retool and do what they did again. Netanyahoo will be gone and some new dynamic will emerge, but to leave Hamas in charge is not wise. 1 1
The Frankish Reich Posted March 1 Posted March 1 3 minutes ago, sherpa said: Easy question. It will be enough when they are gone. The "bill" will come due again and again until they are gone. This ends today if Hamas releases all the hostages and their leaders get on the next transportation to Iran, or wherever they can spend their acquired wealth, which is apparently significant, from years of abuse. They can then spend their lives looking over their shoulders, because Israel is know for settling scores. (See the Munich massacre of the Israeli Olympic team and what happened those those involved). It is not enough to allow them to retool and do what they did again. Netanyahoo will be gone and some new dynamic will emerge, but to leave Hamas in charge is not wise. This is also true. Part of being a serious person is the ability to hold that both sides here speak important truths. An old Jesuit teacher put it this way: think about whether you should be saying "and" instead of "but." The instinct is to say something like, "Israel is exacting extreme death and destruction on Gaza, but that is only because Hamas has not unilaterally surrendered." To the Jesuit, the proper formulation was more like this: "Hamas needs to surrender for the good of the people it supposedly represents, and Israel's campaign of total war on Gaza is morally repugnant." 1 2
Tiberius Posted March 1 Author Posted March 1 Oh yes, those cancer medications are for sure duel use items! Dates? Can't they be made into bombs? https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/01/middleeast/gaza-aid-israel-restrictions-investigation-intl-cmd/index.html Al-Zarqa, Jordan — Humanitarian workers and government officials working to deliver urgently needed aid for Gaza say a clear pattern has emerged of Israeli obstruction, as disease and near-famine grip parts of the besieged enclave. The Israeli agency that controls access to Gaza for the multi-billion-dollar aid effort has imposed arbitrary and contradictory criteria, according to more than two dozen humanitarian and government officials interviewed by CNN. CNN has also reviewed documents compiled by major participants in the humanitarian operation that list the items most frequently rejected by the Israelis. These include anesthetics and anesthesia machines, oxygen cylinders, ventilators and water filtration systems. Other items that have ended up in bureaucratic limbo include dates, sleeping bags, medicines to treat cancer, water purification tablets and maternity kits. In a January 13 press conference, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu boasted about permitting “minimal humanitarian aid” to enter Gaza. “We provide minimal humanitarian aid,” Netanyahu said. “If we want to achieve our war goals, we give the minimal aid.” 1
Pokebball Posted March 1 Posted March 1 25 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: I do agree with your last point. Quite some time ago this clearly shifted from "elimination of Hamas weapons/tunnels" to full-on vengeance. There is a whole lot of history that might suggest your opinion is not correct. If this recent conflict was the start, I would agree with you. 1
sherpa Posted March 1 Posted March 1 53 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: To the Jesuit, the proper formulation was more like this: "Hamas needs to surrender for the good of the people it supposedly represents, and Israel's campaign of total war on Gaza is morally repugnant." There is no one here who can judge Israel's response. not me or anyone else. I always think it's funny when Americans voice opinion on situations they think they are informed of, but actually know nowhere near enough to justify opinion. Thirty years of international travel taught me that, so I simply don't judge based on exposure to what the US media reports. What happened on Oct 7 was sub-human. The Israelis have had enough, and Hamas needs to be eliminated, or this happens again and again. The Israelis are attempting to eliminate Hamas, not do some kind of proportioned response, which is idiotic, and given Hamas' and other similar strategies employed in that region, Hamas is quite happy to sacrifice civilians to protect themselves and garner international sympathy after their deeds are responded to. 2 1
Tiberius Posted March 1 Author Posted March 1 16 minutes ago, sherpa said: There is no one here who can judge Israel's response. not me or anyone else. Why not? How come they get a blank check to commit genocide? 1
sherpa Posted March 1 Posted March 1 7 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Why not? How come they get a blank check to commit genocide? One of the interesting things about your posts is that they almost always contain a false premise, or accusation. If anyone is interested enough to respond, they have to respond to that nonsense. It's quite similar to the "have you stopped beating your wife" query. This one is typical. They don't get a blank check to commit genocide. Nobody here, me included, has any idea what is going into their planning and execution. They are determined to get rid of Hamas, and whatever Netanyahu eventually completes, it will be his last action. A huge proportion of the Israeli population that serves is involved in this. Way more than any ignorant American can surmise. But....To the point, getting rid of Hamas is going to be incredibly ugly, because that's the way they, (Hamas), have structured it, as always. They structured the chessboard. Quit complaining when the other side plays it. 4
Tiberius Posted March 1 Author Posted March 1 7 minutes ago, sherpa said: One of the interesting things about your posts is that they almost always contain a false premise, or accusation. If anyone is interested enough to respond, they have to respond to that nonsense. It's quite similar to the "have you stopped beating your wife" query. This one is typical. They don't get a blank check to commit genocide. Nobody here, me included, has any idea what is going into their planning and execution. They are determined to get rid of Hamas, and whatever Netanyahu eventually completes, it will be his last action. A huge proportion of the Israeli population that serves is involved in this. Way more than any ignorant American can surmise. But....To the point, getting rid of Hamas is going to be incredibly ugly, because that's the way they, (Hamas), have structured it, as always. They structured the chessboard. Quit complaining when the other side plays it. It's very much turning into a genocide It just is
B-Man Posted March 1 Posted March 1 9 minutes ago, sherpa said: One of the interesting things about your posts is that they almost always contain a false premise, or accusation. If anyone is interested enough to respond, they have to respond to that nonsense. It's quite similar to the "have you stopped beating your wife" query. 1
sherpa Posted March 1 Posted March 1 24 minutes ago, Tiberius said: It's very much turning into a genocide It just is Sure. You would know. The Holocaust was genocide. Ridding an aggressive enemy, determined to exterminate you, capable of inhuman actions against women and children, including the unborn, and all of your people is not genocide. It is survival, and I'm all for it. 1
Justice Posted March 1 Posted March 1 2 hours ago, sherpa said: Easy question. It will be enough when they are gone. The "bill" will come due again and again until they are gone. This ends today if Hamas releases all the hostages and their leaders get on the next transportation to Iran, or wherever they can spend their acquired wealth, which is apparently significant, from years of abuse. They can then spend their lives looking over their shoulders, because Israel is know for settling scores. (See the Munich massacre of the Israeli Olympic team and what happened those those involved). It is not enough to allow them to retool and do what they did again. Netanyahoo will be gone and some new dynamic will emerge, but to leave Hamas in charge is not wise. You live in a false reality. They made that place uninhabitable. Who are you kidding? Nobody, not Hamas, not the civilians can live there after this is all done. Netanyahu said returning of the hostages won’t end this. Stop playing yourself. 1
Justice Posted March 1 Posted March 1 1 hour ago, sherpa said: There is no one here who can judge Israel's response. not me or anyone else. I always think it's funny when Americans voice opinion on situations they think they are informed of, but actually know nowhere near enough to justify opinion. Thirty years of international travel taught me that, so I simply don't judge based on exposure to what the US media reports. What happened on Oct 7 was sub-human. The Israelis have had enough, and Hamas needs to be eliminated, or this happens again and again. The Israelis are attempting to eliminate Hamas, not do some kind of proportioned response, which is idiotic, and given Hamas' and other similar strategies employed in that region, Hamas is quite happy to sacrifice civilians to protect themselves and garner international sympathy after their deeds are responded to. Lots of lies are being exposed about that date. Lots. Too bad you have blinders on. 1
sherpa Posted March 1 Posted March 1 3 minutes ago, Justice said: Lots of lies are being exposed about that date. Lots. Too bad you have blinders on. Ya. Too bad.
Tiberius Posted March 1 Author Posted March 1 3 hours ago, sherpa said: Sure. You would know. The Holocaust was genocide. Ridding an aggressive enemy, determined to exterminate you, capable of inhuman actions against women and children, including the unborn, and all of your people is not genocide. It is survival, and I'm all for it. So genocides just happen in one way? We can agree that this is group punishment, right? People that had nothing to do at all with attacking Israel are being starved, bombed, and shot, right? 3 hours ago, sherpa said: Ya. Too bad. Sub human? Like the people that funneled money to Hamas? And did not have a watch on a group sworn to destroy Israel? Netanhoo let them attack. 1
sherpa Posted March 1 Posted March 1 15 minutes ago, Tiberius said: So genocides just happen in one way? We can agree that this is group punishment, right? People that had nothing to do at all with attacking Israel are being starved, bombed, and shot, right? Sub human? Like the people that funneled money to Hamas? And did not have a watch on a group sworn to destroy Israel? Netanhoo let them attack. The claim that Netanyahu allowed them to attack is stupid and ignorant. Stop with that nonsense, Nope. Nope and nope. Genocide is your assertion. Not mine, and not factual or supported. Hamas has set things up to ensure that civilians get killed. That's how they play their game. That is a universal strategy among Islamic military planning. Start a war, which they did. Get you ass kicked, which they are doing. Appeal to the international community for mercy, claiming war crimes/genocide/whatever, from the entity that you attacked. Rinse repeat, over and over. 1
The Frankish Reich Posted March 2 Posted March 2 24 minutes ago, sherpa said: Hamas has set things up to ensure that civilians get killed. That's how they play their game. Yes. But again: that doesn't mean that ostensibly civilized nations need to play their game. 1
sherpa Posted March 2 Posted March 2 2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Yes. But again: that doesn't mean that ostensibly civilized nations need to play their game. And do what? Continue to put up with this? Their game doesn't need to be played with. It needs to be eliminated, or this never ends. Nobody away from Israel knows what their situation is. Ergo, in my view, nobody in the US can judge. 1
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