Israel and Iran

[yall]

3 hours ago, Justice said:

If you seen what I seen you guys would not support Israel. Your algorithm on social media sites show you what you want to see. I purposely watch both sides of coverage so my algorithm is as fair as possible. It’s horrible. You guys have no clue what’s going on. And if you do you’re despicable people and one day you will be judged. We will all have our day in front of the Lord. Laugh now, cry later. 

Man, if that isn't some WNY grammar, I don't know what is!

Edited February 13 by yall

[Justice]

7 hours ago, Doc said:

 

People make stupid decisions that seem like a good idea prior.  Sometimes you have to live with the consequences of them.

True. It’s the dying part I’m worried about. No one will be left soon if this keeps up. Kneel on the ball. Game is over. It’s a blowout. 

6 hours ago, yall said:

Man, if that isn't some WNY grammar, I don't know what is!

I don’t get it lol. Is this supposed to be something exclusive to WNY? Lol. Either way it’s West side for life, baby! 

[yall]

11 hours ago, Justice said:

True. It’s the dying part I’m worried about. No one will be left soon if this keeps up. Kneel on the ball. Game is over. It’s a blowout. 

I don’t get it lol. Is this supposed to be something exclusive to WNY? Lol. Either way it’s West side for life, baby! 

A lot of WNY'ers say "I seen" and it's nothing short of maddening.

[All_Pro_Bills]

17 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

In this case, Israel's definition of "self defense" is the elimination of Hamas.

I don't have a problem with eliminating Hamas.

They have defined the battlefield, and the battlefield determines the tactics.

Eliminating Hamas, yes.  But their flippant concern over collateral damage and casualties is alarming.  

At a level that would elicit cries of war crimes if committed by some enemy.

The administration in Washington appears only able to "ask" them to tone it down.  A request ignored.  Yet the elected stooges in Congress want to send some $11B in return for what?  A good kick in the balls.  

[Precision]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Eliminating Hamas, yes.  But their flippant concern over collateral damage and casualties is alarming.  

At a level that would elicit cries of war crimes if committed by some enemy.

The administration in Washington appears only able to "ask" them to tone it down.  A request ignored.  Yet the elected stooges in Congress want to send some $11B in return for what?  A good kick in the balls.  

Easy for us to say flippant when the conflict doesn't directly impact the US and few of our citizens were killed.  After 9/11 people wanted to bomb the middle east into the stone age.  No one was concerned about collateral damage in Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq (where orders of magnitude more have died than in Gaza).  Similarly, in the past there was little sympathy for the residents of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Hanoi.

 

Now that we're on the outside looking in, we think we have some sort of moral high ground to stand on.  We don't.  If the US chooses to discontinue aid to Israel that's fine but when it comes to indiscriminate bombing, we're the last country on earth that should criticize Israel. 

 

 

[yall]

46 minutes ago, Precision said:

Easy for us to say flippant when the conflict doesn't directly impact the US and few of our citizens were killed.  After 9/11 people wanted to bomb the middle east into the stone age.  No one was concerned about collateral damage in Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq (where orders of magnitude more have died than in Gaza).  Similarly, in the past there was little sympathy for the residents of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Hanoi.

 

Now that we're on the outside looking in, we think we have some sort of moral high ground to stand on.  We don't.  If the US chooses to discontinue aid to Israel that's fine but when it comes to indiscriminate bombing, we're the last country on earth that should criticize Israel. 

 

 

Isn't Russia indiscriminately blowing up ***** in Ukraine?

 

Funny, because that's been going on for a while and yet I haven't seen global protests condemning that, and in that case they are purely the aggressor, not a nation responding to an existential threat.

 

I can't imagine what the difference could be...

[All_Pro_Bills]

41 minutes ago, Precision said:

Easy for us to say flippant when the conflict doesn't directly impact the US and few of our citizens were killed.  After 9/11 people wanted to bomb the middle east into the stone age.  No one was concerned about collateral damage in Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq (where orders of magnitude more have died than in Gaza).  Similarly, in the past there was little sympathy for the residents of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Hanoi.

 

Now that we're on the outside looking in, we think we have some sort of moral high ground to stand on.  We don't.  If the US chooses to discontinue aid to Israel that's fine but when it comes to indiscriminate bombing, we're the last country on earth that should criticize Israel. 

 

 

 But they do want the American taxpayer to foot the bill and our Congressional representatives are falling all over themselves trying to give them billions.  So while our representatives who are intent on serving interests other than the American public prefer a carte blanche arrangement I think conditions should be attached.

 

Generally, I agree with you but the world runs on lots of gray areas and isn't black and white.  And why we might get away with such things in places like Syria, Afghanistan, and Iraq while Russia, for example, gets charged at the world court for "war crimes" in Ukraine for what seems like much less is because the world is divided into "rule makers" and "rule takers".  I expect you'll understand the difference. 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Precision said:

Easy for us to say flippant when the conflict doesn't directly impact the US and few of our citizens were killed.  After 9/11 people wanted to bomb the middle east into the stone age.  No one was concerned about collateral damage in Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq (where orders of magnitude more have died than in Gaza).  Similarly, in the past there was little sympathy for the residents of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Hanoi.

 

Now that we're on the outside looking in, we think we have some sort of moral high ground to stand on.  We don't.  If the US chooses to discontinue aid to Israel that's fine but when it comes to indiscriminate bombing, we're the last country on earth that should criticize Israel. 

 

And it at least appears that Israel is trying to minimize CD.  But when the terrorists are hiding like cowards behind their civilans, or in hospitals or underground, that's not going to be easy.

[sherpa]

3 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Eliminating Hamas, yes.  But their flippant concern over collateral damage and casualties is alarming.  

At a level that would elicit cries of war crimes if committed by some enemy.

The administration in Washington appears only able to "ask" them to tone it down.  A request ignored.  Yet the elected stooges in Congress want to send some $11B in return for what?  A good kick in the balls.  

 

I fully agree with Precision's post in response.

Israel is a sovereign nation responding to a ceasefire break and the most heinous massacre in recent memory.

 

They are not puppets of the US or any other nation that might provide aid.

 

Their military is known for being extremely careful and professional, and I'm certain they are doing the same in this case.

 

Hamas chooses to attack them and withdraw to areas on their own volition.

There is no chance that Hamas gets to a moment where they change their tactics and future hope to eliminate Israel and all Israelis. That isn't going to happen.

 

In my view, they are fully justified, and this oft repeated, since 1967,  tactic of attacking Israel, losing the ensuing battle, and then going to the international community for sympathy and a forced ceasefire needs to end.

 

Either way, the US has no right to demand that they pursue a "proportionate response" action.

That day passed on Oct. 7.

[Tommy Callahan]

 

[B-Man]

 

[ComradeKayAdams]

23 hours ago, sherpa said:

In this case, Israel's definition of "self defense" is the elimination of Hamas.

I don't have a problem with eliminating Hamas.

They have defined the battlefield, and the battlefield determines the tactics.

 

But again…what does it mean to “eliminate Hamas,” exactly? Is there a list of top names whom the IDF needs to assassinate? A percentage of members from some official Hamas roster that need to be killed? 

 

And are these IDF tactics on the urban Gaza battlefield anything close to optimal?? Both the number (30,500+) and the percentage (~87%) of civilian casualties are ridiculously high (source: Euro-Med HRM, February 3 report). Many of the hostages have even perished due to the carpet bombing.

 

And what is this lengthy siege on Gaza doing for future Hamas recruitment?? Or for the long-term security of Israeli citizens abroad, for that matter? Or for Israel’s diplomatic standing in the world? Or for their economic vitality? So it’s clearly in the best interest of Israel to bring this conflict to a swift conclusion. However, it’s also difficult to bring a mission to a conclusion if the mission objectives aren’t clearly defined!

 

Then again…maybe the mission objectives were clear all along? Maybe the intent was land seizure and eventual Israeli citizen settlement of Gaza, with the hope that the concerned international community would take in all the Palestinian refugees? None of you here, after all, challenged me on my accusations of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

3 hours ago, yall said:

Isn't Russia indiscriminately blowing up ***** in Ukraine?

 

Funny, because that's been going on for a while and yet I haven't seen global protests condemning that, and in that case they are purely the aggressor, not a nation responding to an existential threat.

 

I can't imagine what the difference could be...

 

Please stop with these ridiculous insinuations of anti-Semitism. They are never get-out-of-jail-free cards for ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

The purpose of protesting is to effect change. What good does protesting Putin do? Do you think he cares what the outside world thinks? The United States and Israel are democracies that, in theory at least, are responsive to their respective citizenry (in practice, admittedly, the U.S. functions as a corporate oligarchy while Israel is a satellite state of American imperialism that helps it maintain Middle Eastern hegemony).

[sherpa]

8 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

But again…what does it mean to “eliminate Hamas,” exactly? Is there a list of top names whom the IDF needs to assassinate? A percentage of members from some official Hamas roster that need to be killed? 

 

And are these IDF tactics on the urban Gaza battlefield anything close to optimal?? Both the number (30,500+) and the percentage (~87%) of civilian casualties are ridiculously high (source: Euro-Med HRM, February 3 report). Many of the hostages have even perished due to the carpet bombing.

 

And what is this lengthy siege on Gaza doing for future Hamas recruitment?? Or for the long-term security of Israeli citizens abroad, for that matter? Or for Israel’s diplomatic standing in the world? Or for their economic vitality? So it’s clearly in the best interest of Israel to bring this conflict to a swift conclusion. However, it’s also difficult to bring a mission to a conclusion if the mission objectives aren’t clearly defined!

 

 

 

Simply absurd.

Carpet bombing?

Where did you ever get this?

The Israelis have never done this in their history, and certainly not here.

 

The "siege on Gaza" has been Hamas.

They are the entity that took all of those assets and did nothing other than build an underground military assault capability designed to launce offensive operations and hide when the predictable response came.

[Tommy Callahan]

16 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

Then again…maybe the mission objectives were clear all along? Maybe the intent was land seizure and eventual Israeli citizen settlement of Gaza, with the hope that the concerned international community would take in all the Palestinian refugees? None of you here, after all, challenged me on my accusations of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

How many Palestinians live in gaza? 

 

Even with the high and debated numbers , it's still no place near genocide or ethnic cleansing.  For that, see the congo/Ethiopia conflicts, unghars/Muslims  in china.   

 

Edited February 14 by Tommy Callahan

[Doc]

29 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Simply absurd.

Carpet bombing?

Where did you ever get this?

The Israelis have never done this in their history, and certainly not here.

 

The "siege on Gaza" has been Hamas.

They are the entity that took all of those assets and did nothing other than build an underground military assault capability designed to launce offensive operations and hide when the predictable response came.

 

What do you expect from a Commie?

[Tommy Callahan]

The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part.

[Tiberius]

4 hours ago, Precision said:

Easy for us to say flippant when the conflict doesn't directly impact the US and few of our citizens were killed.  After 9/11 people wanted to bomb the middle east into the stone age.  No one was concerned about collateral damage in Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq (where orders of magnitude more have died than in Gaza).  Similarly, in the past there was little sympathy for the residents of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Hanoi.

 

Now that we're on the outside looking in, we think we have some sort of moral high ground to stand on.  We don't.  If the US chooses to discontinue aid to Israel that's fine but when it comes to indiscriminate bombing, we're the last country on earth that should criticize Israel. 

 

 

This conflict is already drawing us in. Americans have been killed in the aftermath of this war beginning. So we do have a vested interest in seeing it wide down as quicly as possible 

[ComradeKayAdams]

1 hour ago, sherpa said:

Simply absurd.

Carpet bombing?

Where did you ever get this?

The Israelis have never done this in their history, and certainly not here.

 

The "siege on Gaza" has been Hamas.

They are the entity that took all of those assets and did nothing other than build an underground military assault capability designed to launce offensive operations and hide when the predictable response came.

 

If you look at current bombed building maps of Gaza, you’ll see that Jabalia and Gaza City and Khan Yunis are completely saturated with red (when each tiny red dot depicts a bombed building). Rafah is already rapidly getting to that same saturation state. From a current bird’s-eye view, the cumulative damage resembles carpet bombing and not the consequences of tactical warfare.

 

The displaced Gazan residents have nothing to return to…which begs the question: what is the plan for them once this conflict is resolved? Is Israel going to rebuild their homes?? Or will they have to live somewhere else?

 

Similarly, as the assault on Rafah advances and UNWRA suspensions persist, what is to be done regarding the short-term and long-term food/water/clothing/shelter/health care needs of Gazans?

 

1 hour ago, Tommy Callahan said:

How many Palestinians live in gaza? 

 

Even with the high and debated numbers , it's still no place near genocide or ethnic cleansing.  For that, see the congo/Ethiopia conflicts, unghars/Muslims  in china.

 

About 2 million Palestinians live in Gaza. I’m not familiar with any argument where the Gazan population of Palestinians isn’t large enough to qualify as “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide.” I’m using the same definitions of these words as the United Nations.

[sherpa]

5 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

If you look at current bombed building maps of Gaza, you’ll see that Jabalia and Gaza City and Khan Yunis are completely saturated with red (when each tiny red dot depicts a bombed building). Rafah is already rapidly getting to that same saturation state. From a current bird’s-eye view, the cumulative damage resembles carpet bombing and not the consequences of tactical warfare.

 

 

 

No offense, but I am quite sure you know nothing about carpet bombing, what the IDF has done, what they are faced with, or even their ability to "carpet bomb."

In fact, I doubt you have any idea what "tactical warfare" they are employing.

 

Again, no offense intended.

I assert that you simply have no idea.

[Pokebball]

1 hour ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

But again…what does it mean to “eliminate Hamas,” exactly? Is there a list of top names whom the IDF needs to assassinate? A percentage of members from some official Hamas roster that need to be killed? 

 

And are these IDF tactics on the urban Gaza battlefield anything close to optimal?? Both the number (30,500+) and the percentage (~87%) of civilian casualties are ridiculously high (source: Euro-Med HRM, February 3 report). Many of the hostages have even perished due to the carpet bombing.

 

And what is this lengthy siege on Gaza doing for future Hamas recruitment?? Or for the long-term security of Israeli citizens abroad, for that matter? Or for Israel’s diplomatic standing in the world? Or for their economic vitality? So it’s clearly in the best interest of Israel to bring this conflict to a swift conclusion. However, it’s also difficult to bring a mission to a conclusion if the mission objectives aren’t clearly defined!

 

Then again…maybe the mission objectives were clear all along? Maybe the intent was land seizure and eventual Israeli citizen settlement of Gaza, with the hope that the concerned international community would take in all the Palestinian refugees? None of you here, after all, challenged me on my accusations of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

 

Please stop with these ridiculous insinuations of anti-Semitism. They are never get-out-of-jail-free cards for ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

The purpose of protesting is to effect change. What good does protesting Putin do? Do you think he cares what the outside world thinks? The United States and Israel are democracies that, in theory at least, are responsive to their respective citizenry (in practice, admittedly, the U.S. functions as a corporate oligarchy while Israel is a satellite state of American imperialism that helps it maintain Middle Eastern hegemony).

Carpet bombing? Do you have evidence of this?