Israel and Iran

[B-Man]

 

How the Gaza ceasefire collapsed

Barak Ravid

 

Three Israeli officials told Axios the negotiations over the extension of the Gaza ceasefire collapsed on Friday after Hamas refused to free 10 Israeli women, and instead, offered to begin discussing the release of elderly men. Hamas has blamed Israel for the breakdown of the ceasefire.

 

The latest: Israel's Mossad intelligence agency called back its team from Qatar on Saturday as a result of the collapse of the hostage negotiations. In a statement, the Mossad accused Hamas of not implementing its commitments in the agreement.

 

Why it matters: The collapse of the ceasefire and resumption of the fighting on Friday morning could quickly lead to Israel expanding its ground operation in Gaza to the southern city of Khan Younis.

 

U.S. officials have expressed concerns that an Israeli operation in the southern part of Gaza could lead to significantly more civilian casualties and deepen the humanitarian crisis.

 

More at :  https://www.axios.com/2023/12/01/gaza-ceasefire-collapse-israel-hostages

 

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[B-Man]

 

[yall]

On 12/1/2023 at 3:05 PM, Justice said:

Hamas is evil 

 

Who’s responsibility is it to protect their people huh? 

That's the functional equivalent of "she shouldn't have dressed that way".

[Justice]

1 minute ago, yall said:

That's the functional equivalent of "she shouldn't have dressed that way".

No. It isn’t. Politicians always ask for votes by saying I can protect the people better than the next guy.
 

What’s funny is others can say Netanyahu will be held accountable (which means he’s responsible) on this thread with no opposition but as soon as I say it it’s an issue. 
 

 

[yall]

6 minutes ago, Justice said:

No. It isn’t. Politicians always ask for votes by saying I can protect the people better than the next guy.
 

What’s funny is others can say Netanyahu will be held accountable (which means he’s responsible) on this thread with no opposition but as soon as I say it it’s an issue. 
 

 

Accountability != responsibility.

 

Hamas is 100% responsible for what they did. You're position that Israel has any culpability is absurd.

 

Yeah they clearly shouldn't have ignored the warning signs and for that the administration will be (ideally) held accountable.

 

Basically, your schtick is some combo of calling out Hamas but blaming Israel instead. It's wearing thin on anyone with a functional brain.

 

 

 

 

[sherpa]

5 minutes ago, Justice said:

 

What’s funny is others can say Netanyahu will be held accountable (which means he’s responsible) on this thread with no opposition but as soon as I say it it’s an issue. 
 

 

 

No.

If I understand what you are suggesting, it is inaccurate.

Netanyahu and others may well be held accountable for the Shin Bet failure to see this coming, but not for the hideous, subhuman actions of Hamas.

He certainly isn't "responsible," to use your wor, for that.

 

The only people who are are Hamas, and others who funded and helped train and plan that disgusting action.

 

Not the Israeli gov. Not the settlers. Not the innocent murder victims.

[Justice]

1 minute ago, yall said:

Accountability != responsibility.

 

Hamas is 100% responsible for what they did. You're position that Israel has any culpability is absurd.

 

Yeah they clearly shouldn't have ignored the warning signs and for that the administration will be (ideally) held accountable.

 

Basically, your schtick is some combo of calling out Hamas but blaming Israel instead. It's wearing thin on anyone with a functional brain.

 

 

 

 

Read this post over and over again until you catch the irony of it. Focus on the third paragraph. 
 

Also answer this one question for me. If someone invaded your country and pushed you off into a small piece of land that’s blocked off from the rest of the world what do you think will happen? 
 

If you can’t answer that question then it is you that doesn’t have a functioning brain. 

[yall]

2 minutes ago, Justice said:

Read this post over and over again until you catch the irony of it. Focus on the third paragraph. 
 

Also answer this one question for me. If someone invaded your country and pushed you off into a small piece of land that’s blocked off from the rest of the world what do you think will happen? 
 

If you can’t answer that question then it is you that doesn’t have a functioning brain. 

You support Hamas.

 

Deny it all you want. 

[Justice]

9 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

No.

If I understand what you are suggesting, it is inaccurate.

Netanyahu and others may well be held accountable for the Shin Bet failure to see this coming, but not for the hideous, subhuman actions of Hamas.

He certainly isn't "responsible," to use your wor, for that.

 

The only people who are are Hamas, and others who funded and helped train and plan that disgusting action.

 

Not the Israeli gov. Not the settlers. Not the innocent murder victims.

October 7th didn’t happen in a vacuum. Listen man I’ll tell you like I told y’all. By all accounts you’re an intelligent person. Sounds like you have some military background so you should understand that a brutal occupation will have blowback. 
 

I assume you live here in the US. If we were invaded and occupied what do you think our reaction will be? 

2 minutes ago, yall said:

You support Hamas.

 

Deny it all you want. 

I do not support their actions. Burning people alive, rape and all those vicious things are inexcusable. I hate Hamas. I’ve said this over and over again. You simply can’t see through your programmed propaganda which leads you to say such asinine crap like that. 
 

I’m all for resistance, but I have my limits. The first intifada is my preferred course of action. Not October 7th or anything like it. 
 

 

[reddogblitz]

7 hours ago, Tiberius said:

It was in that BBC article I linked 

 

Actually it was not.

 

A lot of Monday morning QBing going on.  I don't know if Israel should have known, knew, or whatever.

 

But as Americans we don't have a lot of room to talk.  We missed 911 even though the FBi was aware of one of the cells and guys were taking flying less but didn't need to know how to land or takeoff, just how to fly one in the air.   We missed the Kennedy assassination even though the FBI was watching Oswald.  Secret Service guys being hung over from too much late night party didn't help either.  There is good reason to believe FDR knew of the Pearl Harbor attack and did nothing to stop it.  

 

[sherpa]

4 minutes ago, Justice said:

 

I assume you live here in the US. If we were invaded and occupied what do you think our reaction will be? 

 

You are suggesting a hypothetical that I don't think directly applies.

Israel defeated  multi Arab nation attacks, and in doing so, acquired the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, Sinai and parts of Southern Lebanon. It gave up Southern Lebanon and the Sinai.

They could have taken Damascus and Cairo were it not for forced ceasefires.

 

When you start a war you suffer the consequences.

 

To answer your hypothetical, if the US was "invaded" as Israel was, I would expect the same response. The US would react the way Israel did. Beat back the invasion and do what we could to ensure it didn't happen again, all the while pursuing an agreeable end of the issue, which they have and has always been rejected. 

[Justice]

20 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

You are suggesting a hypothetical that I don't think directly applies.

Israel defeated  multi Arab nation attacks, and in doing so, acquired the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, Sinai and parts of Southern Lebanon. It gave up Southern Lebanon and the Sinai.

They could have taken Damascus and Cairo were it not for forced ceasefires.

 

When you start a war you suffer the consequences.

 

To answer your hypothetical, if the US was "invaded" as Israel was, I would expect the same response. The US would react the way Israel did. Beat back the invasion and do what we could to ensure it didn't happen again, all the while pursuing an agreeable end of the issue, which they have and has always been rejected. 

The war of 67 was started by Israel for far less reasons than what Gaza currently has but somehow one is validated and the other isn’t. 
 

Besides isn’t it against UN rules to gain land from wars? 

 

You danced around the question. I can assure you no matter the reason or whomever started it the people of the US will not sit back and do nothing. We would resist and we’d resist with force. 
 

 

[Tiberius]

43 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Actually it was not.

 

A lot of Monday morning QBing going on.  I don't know if Israel should have known, knew, or whatever.

 

But as Americans we don't have a lot of room to talk.  We missed 911 even though the FBi was aware of one of the cells and guys were taking flying less but didn't need to know how to land or takeoff, just how to fly one in the air.   We missed the Kennedy assassination even though the FBI was watching Oswald.  Secret Service guys being hung over from too much late night party didn't help either.  There is good reason to believe FDR knew of the Pearl Harbor attack and did nothing to stop it.  

 

9-11 is not even close to being a similiar situation of intelligence failure. Different threats, different situations completely, different type of targets, different operations and countries. Above all, different historical and geographic situations, Not even close comparison, aside that both missed surprise attacks. 

[Justice]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

9-11 is not even close to being a similiar situation of intelligence failure. Different threats, different situations completely, different type of targets, different operations and countries. Above all, different historical and geographic situations, Not even close comparison, aside that both missed surprise attacks. 

Word 

[Tiberius]

The idea the IDF missed this because HAMAS was hiding it so well is another joke 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67480680

Footage from the first drill shows masked commanders in a bunker appearing to conduct the exercise, and begins with a volley of rocket fire.

It cuts to heavily armed fighters overrunning a mocked-up tank marked with an Israeli flag, detaining a crew member and dragging him away as a prisoner, as well as raiding buildings.

We know from videos and harrowing witness statements that both tactics were used to capture soldiers and target civilians on 7 October, when around 1,200 people were killed and an estimated 240 hostages were taken.

 

The second Strong Pillar drill was held almost exactly one year later.

Ayman Nofal, a commander in the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades - the official name for Hamas's armed wing - said the aim of the exercise on 26 December 2021 was to "affirm the unity of the resistance factions".

He said the drills would "tell the enemy that the walls and engineering measures on the borders of Gaza will not protect them".

 

Another Hamas statement said the "joint military manoeuvres" were designed to "simulate the liberation of settlements near Gaza" - which is how the group refers to Israeli communities.

The exercise was repeated on 28 December 2022, and propaganda images of fighters practising clearing buildings and overrunning tanks in what appears to be a replica of a military base were published to mark the event.

[sherpa]

5 minutes ago, Justice said:

The war of 67 was started by Israel for far less reasons than what Gaza currently has but somehow one is validated and the other isn’t. 
 

Besides isn’t it against UN rules to gain land from wars? 

 

You danced around the question. I can assure you no matter the reason or whomever started it the people of the US will not sit back and do nothing. We would resist and we’d resist with force. 
 

 

 

The Six Day War was not started by Israel, though they were the first offensive action.

Nobody, anywhere, ever has denied that the joint Arab forces were within hours of attacking.

 

I don't know of "UN rules," but countries can certainly gain land from winning wars, and they can and should ensure their survivability by buffering from known attackers.

Israel,  nor any other country, has the ability to defend against modern weaponry on it's border, and with those belligerents being funded, trained and supplied by others, (Iran), using their country as a launching point for their own war, they have no option other than to do what they do. 

 

I feel a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinians.

What I despise, is Iran using them as surrogates, and the rest of the Arab world expelling and killing Palestinians in the hundreds of thousands, and blaming the Palestinian problem on Israel, all the while refusing to provide or support a negotiated settlement.

[Tiberius]

On 12/1/2023 at 11:51 AM, B-Man said:

 

 

For the first time in their lives, many of the ignorant protestors suddenly professed concern about refugees, colonialism, disproportionality, innocent civilians, and the rules of war.

 

But none could explain why the Palestinians who fled Israel in 1947-48 still self-identify as victimized "refugees" when 900,000 Jews ethnically cleansed from Middle-East Arab cities about the same time do not.

 

https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2023/12/01/the-unhinged-among-us-n2631857#google_vignette

 

.

So caring about Palestians being killed wholesale is anti-semitic? 

 

What does this guy think about Elon Musk? 

 

 

22 minutes ago, Justice said:

The war of 67 was started by Israel for far less reasons than what Gaza currently has but somehow one is validated and the other isn’t. 
 

Besides isn’t it against UN rules to gain land from wars? 

 

You danced around the question. I can assure you no matter the reason or whomever started it the people of the US will not sit back and do nothing. We would resist and we’d resist with force. 
 

 

Wasn't Israel taking all the water in the region and saying it was their and theirs only? The Jordan River was being diverted or something, can't remember exactly 

[Justice]

13 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

The Six Day War was not started by Israel, though they were the first offensive action.

Nobody, anywhere, ever has denied that the joint Arab forces were within hours of attacking.

 

I don't know of "UN rules," but countries can certainly gain land from winning wars, and they can and should ensure their survivability by buffering from known attackers.

Israel,  nor any other country, has the ability to defend against modern weaponry on it's border, and with those belligerents being funded, trained and supplied by others, (Iran), using their country as a launching point for their own war, they have no option other than to do what they do. 

 

I feel a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinians.

What I despise, is Iran using them as surrogates, and the rest of the Arab world expelling and killing Palestinians in the hundreds of thousands, and blaming the Palestinian problem on Israel, all the while refusing to provide or support a negotiated settlement.

Yeah. That’s what I meant to say. First to strike. My point was Gaza has just as many reasons if not more than what Israel had. 
 

“International law is very clear: annexation and territorial conquest are forbidden by the Charter of the United Nations,” 
 

Would you agree that the war of 1948 and the war of 1967 were both justified by the Arab nations? Were they supposed to just handover the land for free and not fight for it?
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Justice]

59 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

So caring about Palestians being killed wholesale is anti-semitic? 

 

What does this guy think about Elon Musk? 

 

 

Wasn't Israel taking all the water in the region and saying it was their and theirs only? The Jordan River was being diverted or something, can't remember exactly 

Honestly I don’t know 

 

What I do know about water is my family that lives in the WB always have to make sure their wells are full because their water gets cut off frequently by the Israelis. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Justice

[sherpa]

4 minutes ago, Justice said:

Yeah. That’s what I meant to say. First to strike. My point was Gaza has just as many reasons if not more than what Israel had. 
 

“International law is very clear: annexation and territorial conquest are forbidden by the Charter of the United Nations,” 
 

Would you agree that the war of 1948 and the war of 1967 were both justified by the Arab nations? Were they supposed to just handover the land for free and not fight for it?

 

 

First, I really appreciate and respect your participation and heart felt viewpoints.

You seem sincere, and most important to me, apolitical.

You express yourself with sincerity and honesty.

 

The 1948 war was the result of a stupid solution from a war tired world feeling guilty from an exposure of the genocide they had caused, (Germany), or didn't notice or acknowledge.

Smart solutions almost never result from these situations, and didn't in this situation.

 

What I've noticed over the years of this horrible issue is the complete lack of any interest in a solution that is reasonable from the Arab world, who has killed and ejected Palestinians from their borders over and over. 

Reasonable proposals have been suggested. Always rejected.

 

So.... Cold as it may seem, my view is formed by hearing what was done on Oct. 7, actions that I have never imagined, and I fully support Israel's goal of completely eliminating Hamas, and going from there.