Israel and Iran

[Andy1]

23 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Michelle Goldberg is a liberal NY Times columnist. I generally don't agree with her columns. But this one is very solid and fair. It is not Twitter/X. You need to actually read a few paragraphs (a lost art around here) instead of an inflammatory 200 character characterization.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/20/opinion/israel-war-gaza-hospital-danger.html

 

Of course, I’d read Israel’s insistence that an errant Islamic Jihad rocket had caused the explosion at the hospital, but I didn’t put much stock in it, because in the past when Israel accidentally killed civilians, it has blamed Palestinians for the deaths. In May of last year, the Palestinian American journalist Shireen Abu Akleh was shot and killed while covering an Israeli raid on the Jenin refugee camp. Israeli officials said she was shot either by a Palestinian or by an Israeli soldier aiming at a Palestinian gunman. A New York Times investigation, however, contradicted the official Israeli line. It found that the bullet that killed Abu Akleh was fired from the direction of an Israeli military convoy and that “there were no armed Palestinians near her when she was shot.”

A few months later, during another round of Israeli bombing of Gaza, five Palestinian boys were killed in a cemetery. Initially, Israeli officials blamed a misfired Islamic Jihad rocket for the deaths. But as the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported, an army inquiry found they were actually killed by an Israeli airstrike. With the hospital explosion, it seemed history was repeating itself on a larger and more tragic scale.

Perhaps it was, just not in the way I thought. As I write this, it looks increasingly likely that Israel was correct about an Islamic Jihad rocket hitting Al-Ahli hospital. That, at least, is what both early American intelligence and a number of independent experts have found. If their analysis holds up, it means the best analogy for this world-convulsing event is not the killings of five boys in Gaza last year. It is the myth of a massacre at the Jenin refugee camp in 2002.

The first casualty of war is the truth. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

24 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Michelle Goldberg is a liberal NY Times columnist. I generally don't agree with her columns. But this one is very solid and fair. It is not Twitter/X. You need to actually read a few paragraphs (a lost art around here) instead of an inflammatory 200 character characterization.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/20/opinion/israel-war-gaza-hospital-danger.html

 

Of course, I’d read Israel’s insistence that an errant Islamic Jihad rocket had caused the explosion at the hospital, but I didn’t put much stock in it, because in the past when Israel accidentally killed civilians, it has blamed Palestinians for the deaths. In May of last year, the Palestinian American journalist Shireen Abu Akleh was shot and killed while covering an Israeli raid on the Jenin refugee camp. Israeli officials said she was shot either by a Palestinian or by an Israeli soldier aiming at a Palestinian gunman. A New York Times investigation, however, contradicted the official Israeli line. It found that the bullet that killed Abu Akleh was fired from the direction of an Israeli military convoy and that “there were no armed Palestinians near her when she was shot.”

A few months later, during another round of Israeli bombing of Gaza, five Palestinian boys were killed in a cemetery. Initially, Israeli officials blamed a misfired Islamic Jihad rocket for the deaths. But as the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported, an army inquiry found they were actually killed by an Israeli airstrike. With the hospital explosion, it seemed history was repeating itself on a larger and more tragic scale.

Perhaps it was, just not in the way I thought. As I write this, it looks increasingly likely that Israel was correct about an Islamic Jihad rocket hitting Al-Ahli hospital. That, at least, is what both early American intelligence and a number of independent experts have found. If their analysis holds up, it means the best analogy for this world-convulsing event is not the killings of five boys in Gaza last year. It is the myth of a massacre at the Jenin refugee camp in 2002.

 

The article continues, analyzing a "Jenin (West Bank) massacre" by the Israeli IDF that probably never happened.

A NY Times investigation would be no more or less believable than an investigation completed by Israel, or for that matter the US.  The phrase “austere scholar” comes to mind.  
 

If the argument is that the State spins things, sure, obviously.   Really, what player in the game is beyond reproach?  
 

Meanwhile, the two sides play who can wipe whom off the face of the earth first? 

[sherpa]

17 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

Meanwhile, the two sides play who can wipe whom off the face of the earth first? 

 

I know who I'm rootin' for.

[Tiberius]

Time is a dreat thinkener of things

 

--Abe Lincoln 

 

 

[John from Riverside]

10 hours ago, Warcodered said:

 

Hamas is in there somewhere I guess. 🙄

 

For having such a technologically advanced and well trained military, Israel only ever seems to use a hammer.

That is how I see it to. There is no scalpel here.

[Einstein]

3 hours ago, Andy1 said:

Here are a few I found enlightening.

 

 

 

This is a very complex issue that dates back literally 1,300 years ago.

 

Best not to take a side based on the account of a 10 minute YouTube video.

[Justice]

14 hours ago, Andy1 said:

Over the years, decades, I haven’t really understood the complexities of the Palestinian- Israel conflict. I recently watched several YouTube documentaries on the history of the West Bank. My only reaction was shock and disbelief. The Israli government policy of supporting the settlements and regulating, through military force, every aspect of Palestinian lives there is crazy. The Jewish settlers see nothing wrong with expanding the settlements. If, like me, you were ignorant about this issue, educate yourself. Unfortunately, I don’t see how this conflict will ever be resolved. 

If you don’t mind me asking but what compelled you to look into for yourself? I wish more people would. 

[John from Riverside]

22 minutes ago, Justice said:

If you don’t mind me asking but what compelled you to look into for yourself? I wish more people would. 

One of the biggest problems that we have in America is people don’t get out of their own comfort, zones, and see how the rest of the world lives
 

Now that can be expensive so when people don’t have a lot of money, I understand that and not everybody is suited for military life where you can get it for free

 

It’s good to see how other people live. It makes you appreciate the United States that much more and you’re able to take a little bit of culture back.

 

In my case, it was extremely helpful when I got out of the military I immediately went to work for a University that recruits these kids from these countries understanding their customs and concerns. So far away from home is very helpful.

[Justice]

16 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

One of the biggest problems that we have in America is people don’t get out of their own comfort, zones, and see how the rest of the world lives
 

Now that can be expensive so when people don’t have a lot of money, I understand that and not everybody is suited for military life where you can get it for free

 

It’s good to see how other people live. It makes you appreciate the United States that much more and you’re able to take a little bit of culture back.

 

In my case, it was extremely helpful when I got out of the military I immediately went to work for a University that recruits these kids from these countries understanding their customs and concerns. So far away from home is very helpful.

Me being born in the states and going back to Israel and Palestine every few years gives me a unique perspective of the situation. 
 

When you’re there it’s not hard to see how much both sides love their country. And that love will never fade on either side. They need to learn how to live together in harmony or suffer the consequences. There are awful consequences in both winning and losing this conflict. 

[Andy1]

49 minutes ago, Justice said:

If you don’t mind me asking but what compelled you to look into for yourself? I wish more people would. 

For decades I’ve watched 30 second reports on the evening news about violence erupting in Israel. American news presents the Israel side of the conflict - understandable now after the horrific violence committed by Hamas. I’m a curious person who tries to understand the world. YouTube is my gateway to the world, to lands I will never be able to visit. It’s not hard to learn, if you want to. 
 

Im no expert. I’m just an ignorant American trying to understand a problem no one has a solution for. We seem to be entering a new chapter in this conflict. The idea of peace seems to be gone for now due to the actions of Hamas. Hopefully it doesn’t become a wider regional war. 

[reddogblitz]

8 hours ago, Andy1 said:

Here are a few I found enlightening.

 

Thanks man. This gives me a LOT BETTER understanding of what's been going on over there.

[Tiberius]

This is insane, starving 2 million people 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

Good job Biden admin, and everyone else involved in getting this started 

 

 

[Doc]

15 hours ago, Andy1 said:

The first casualty of war is the truth. 

 

The NYT must have been at war decades ago...

[sherpa]

Simply reflecting on this horrible situation.

Again, I've never supported Trump and never will, but when his name is constantly brought up by certain individuals in threads that really don't have to do with him, I note the following:

 

There have been a number of accusations made against him by posts here that he "almost got us into a war with Iran."

I never paid attention to them, but eventually I asked how, and the response was how he called off an offensive operation against Iran.

Puzzled, but not surprised at the response.

 

Now, we are in a war with Iran.

Make no mistake, this thing by Hamas, some additional limited activity from Hezbollah, and now the latest missile and drone  intercepts by US Naval forces from Iran's most recent  franchise, he Houthi rebels in Yemen suggest that we are indeed in a war with Iran.

 

Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthi rebels are in fact, Iran.

 

We have two carrier battle groups positioned because of this, and have now been asked to contribute a fortune in aid.

Yep. Is is indeed, a war.

Edited October 21, 2023 by sherpa

[Tommy Callahan]

Anyone else see this.  Nailed it on levels 

 

Old bill is going to town on the ivy leagues 

 

https://youtu.be/fMF0bser1aM?si=8ePlTkTCYjLjmGbB

Edited October 21, 2023 by Tommy Callahan

[Unforgiven]

COTTON: BIDEN SUPPLEMENTAL SPENDING PROPOSAL IS DEAD ON ARRIVAL

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Caroline Tabler or James Arnold (202) 224-2353
October 20, 2023

Cotton: Biden Supplemental Spending Proposal is Dead on Arrival

Washington, D.C. — Senator Tom Cotton (R-Arkansas) released the following statement after President Biden released his proposed supplemental spending bill:

“President Biden’s slush fund proposal is dead on arrival, just like his budgets. We will not spend, for example, $3.5 billion to address the ‘potential needs of Gazans,’ essentially functioning as a resupply line for Hamas terrorists.

“We will also not spend $11.8 billion to fund the Ukrainian government’s own non-war spending, such as funding retirement pensions for Ukrainian government employees. Nor will we spend $4.7 billion for housing, transportation, and ‘services’ for illegal aliens in the United States rather than deporting them.

“The Biden proposal is going nowhere, and Senate Republicans will take the lead on crafting a funding bill that protects Americans and their interests.”

 

 

And all the idiots say republicans are warmongers. Weasel liars as usual.

[Tiberius]

“I’m not a Trump defender but here is a long post defending him....

 

Just because I really don’t care, honestly!”

[SCBills]