Leslie Frazier, Alex Smith, and the Golden Handcuffs

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Long Suffering Fan said:

So, I posted this in February after the Leslie Frazier non-firing.  It was quickly taken down in the plethora of Frazier threads that came out.  The mod was kind enough to send me a copy so I could repost it later.  Now, it is later.  🙂

 

*****

 

In other threads there has been a segment of people that are annoyed (or even angry) at people like me who are glad that Frazier won't be the DC here next year.  I think the framing of their argument is wrong.

 

- No one is disputing that Frazier is a good and classy guy.  He would probably be someone I wanted as a friend.

- No one is celebrating him not doing the thing he loves.  I have no ill will against him.

- We are not becoming Pats fans (I mean, that's a bad insult around here).  Pats fans have championships.  We are not criticizing people who got us championships like the Pats fans do, we are criticizing those who have failed to.  That is a big difference.

 

I am ecstatic that Frazier will not be the DC here next year.  While I recognize his skill, I also recognize 13 seconds and the Cincy game.  I am not ecstatic that he is gone because he was incompetent.  I am ecstatic because I have come to the opinion that he would hurt us in big playoff moments and make it very difficult for us to win the big one.  I don't care if the Bills are a dominant defense against bad teams.  I need them to be a good defense that limits the best teams.

 

It is the golden handcuff syndrome and I want to take them off.

 

Alex Smith was QB of the Chiefs and, under Andy Reid, he took the Chiefs to the playoffs for three straight years (2015-17).  He was a good QB.  In his last year, his QB rating was 104.7, which was the highest in the league.  Yet the Chiefs moved off of him.  Why?  Because they didn't think that they could win the Super Bowl with him.  I'm sure Alex was a good and classy guy.  I'm sure that there were those who pointed out that he had a better QB rating than Tom Brady.  The fact is they were not going to win a championship with him.  Those celebrating moving on from him realized that he was better than a lot of QBs.  They weren't mean spirited.  They, for whatever reason, just realized that he wasn't going to get it done.....and they were right.  Does anyone think they get 2 SBs without making the switch?

 

That is EXACTLY how I feel about Leslie Frazier.

 

You know, our defense could be worse next year, especially with the looming player departures.  I realize that Frazier moving on is not a guarantee of improvement, but its a chance. 

 

Bonus Point:  How good is Andy Reid?  When comparing Mahomes to Allen, we have to remember that Pat (who is great) has a guy calling and designing plays for him that had Alex Smith sitting atop the league statistically.  Could Dorsey have done that?  Not likely at this stage of his career.

 

*****

 

It is funny looking back how I mentioned the looming player departures.  Edmunds turned out to be the only one and we got better with him leaving.  Miami's offense is still really good and we held them to 20 points.  That is what I am talking about.  I don't expect you to shut them down completely, but you have to make it hard on them and limit them.  I know we have had decent defensive performances against the Chiefs in the regular season, but the defense feels different.  I know that the blitz percentage isn't that different, but they somehow seem more aggressive even when not blitzing.

 

Love ya, Leslie.  Enjoy this stage of your life.  Thank you for all you did to help the team, but I'm glad the handcuffs are off.

This has been my exact point in other threads, thanks for posting this, 👍

[MJS]

1 minute ago, FrenchConnection said:

It's interesting that you bring up Alex Smith. People forget how good of a year he had statistically in 2017. It was a really bold move to trade a guy that just threw for over 4,000 yards and 26 TDs with only 5 INTs to start an unproven Mahomes who was for all intents and purposes a rookie. It has obviously worked out, but it took stones at the time.

Mahomes was a first round draft pick. He was always expected to take over. Smith, despite his good numbers, was always seen as an average QB, kind of like a high-end bridge QB. And he had the label of "game manager" already. I don't think it was a bold move to move on from him. It was expected at the time.

[Long Suffering Fan]

22 minutes ago, MJS said:

Mahomes was a first round draft pick. He was always expected to take over. Smith, despite his good numbers, was always seen as an average QB, kind of like a high-end bridge QB. And he had the label of "game manager" already. I don't think it was a bold move to move on from him. It was expected at the time.

 

This is mostly true.  It is certainly what I believed at the time.  However, it was bold in that Alex was the best statistical QB the year before...and he had his supporters.  Some even referred to them as Alexsexuals.  Here is one quote from Chief's Planet after Alex left the Chiefs.  I picked it because it sums up that all through the Chief's Alex era there were those that passionately advocated for him.

 

There literally is a cult following for Alex Smith who follow him from team to team and obsess over and make Alexcuses for him on forums of whatever team he currently plays for. I still can't believe these people exist." I mean, part of me during the entire Alex era thought those Alexsexuals were all trolls who were simply just trolling us the entire time...like they couldn't possibly be for real. 

 

All the while those Alexsexuals could point to the stats.  I actually feel more kindly toward Frazier, and people have a point when they mention the defensive stats under his leadership, but we needed to move on so we could have the chance to get better

 

Edit:  How cool is that we have Josh and don't have to have conversations like this about QB?!

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Long Suffering Fan

[BillsShredder83]

3 hours ago, Long Suffering Fan said:

In other threads there has been a segment of people that are annoyed (or even angry) at people like me who are glad that Frazier won't be the DC here next year.  I think the framing of their argument is wrong.

Really?? LOL must be scrolling back pretty far. i 100% believe you, this place can be insane, but how in the hell could anyone see the first 4weeks and think "Can't wait till Frazier is back" 

[SCBills]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

I'd pump the brakes a little bit on McD being better.  He may very well turn out to be, but so far through 4 games, contrasted with the first four games of last season, we've allowed 55 points (58 last season), but over 100 more yards-per-game.  That's a lot and on the season over 1,700 yards.  

 

The difference last season between the 1st and 32nd total yardage rankings was 1,564 yards.  

 

Our opponents have been similar as were or losses in those sets of four games, both tight games vs. divisional opponents.  

 

Also, let's not forget, McD's defense is new and teams will increasingly have more video to draw from in planning.  

 

We'll know more by the bye.  

 

 

We've also had a tendency over the past few seasons to start out much stronger than we finish and things have turned to level out after the first bunch of games.  We'll see whether that pattern holds or not.  

 

 

 

We've had 3 games of 4th Quarter garbage stats.

 

McDermott has years of tape/tendencies as a DC.  He's not running some kind of innovative scheme.. It's what his pedigree was in the past - mixing coverages on the back end with a lot of creeper pressure / simulated pressure looks up front. 

[BuffaloBill]

3 hours ago, WhoTom said:

 

Well, the OP isn't using the Golden Handcuffs metaphor correctly.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_handcuffs

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe the OP really has a thing for pink fuzzy handcuffs…. 

[Long Suffering Fan]

18 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Really?? LOL must be scrolling back pretty far. i 100% believe you, this place can be insane, but how in the hell could anyone see the first 4weeks and think "Can't wait till Frazier is back" 

 

Like I said, I wrote that part in February when it happened.  It reflected the discussion at the time.

Speaking of Chiefs Planet, this one is from before the 2017 season and it is.....gold.

 

Alex Smith was the #1 overall pick coming out of college after an extraordinary season, are you saying Mahomes accomplished more yet he fell to #10? You are judging this kid on arm talent and miss the big picture here, he's a reckless player who played in a terrible conference. I could care less about the comparisons to Favre. Give me Brady, Wilson, Montana, or Rodgers comparisons from coaches and you have my attention. 

 

Other posters rip him, of course.  

Edited October 4, 2023 by Long Suffering Fan

[Nephilim17]

4 hours ago, Long Suffering Fan said:

I am not ecstatic that he is gone because he was incompetent.

I agree with your overall point but not this strongly worded line.

 

We are better off with Sean calling plays but Leslie was not incompetent; Sean would not have kept an incompetent DC. 

But, again, we are far better off now.

[BillsShredder83]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Limiting points is the most important thing.  Most of those extra yards were probably surrendered during garbage time.

Also, turnovers have to be up significantly. if scoring is down and our aggression is leading to turnovers, thats amazing. can also just lead into them losing field position, which opens up some easier yards. not worried bout the yards when weve looked like we have, we locked down a potent MIA offense, who is a tough matchup for anyone

[Long Suffering Fan]

49 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

I agree with your overall point but not this strongly worded line.

 

We are better off with Sean calling plays but Leslie was not incompetent; Sean would not have kept an incompetent DC. 

But, again, we are far better off now.

 

I am not saying he was.  Just the opposite.  Back then, if you argued that you were glad Leslie is gone, you would be confronted by those defending his competence.  I agree with his competence.  I'm saying that is not a valid argument because that is not why I was glad he was gone.

[JTown]

The interesting thing to me is Why do you feel that the mods took your post down?

Was it because of the thread that it was in?

[GerstAusGosheim]

4 hours ago, MJS said:

Overruled the squib kick? Everything I have seen and heard is that everyone, including McDermott, was expecting the squib kick, but Bass did not get the word from the coaches.

 

And we don't know for sure that McDermott called the D. That's a logical assumption, but he could have also trusted Frazier to do it and got seriously burned by that decision. We don't know because they've been tight lipped about it.

I trust my source, and no, it wasn’t Michael Lombardi – Lol – but he basically says the same thing here.  Sean called the D during 13

 

As for being overruled on the squibb kick, Heath Farwell chose to leave for Jacksonville job because of it.

 

Sean kept quiet about the whole thing allowing Farwell and Leslie to take all the blame with the fans and media.

 

The only person who admitted any fault was Levi Wallace.

 

90% of the Leslie hate on this board began with the false information people believe about :13 

 

You don't have to like, believe or agree with what I've said. But I have no reason to make it up.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by GerstAusGosheim
added a word

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

I trust my source, and no, it wasn’t Michael Lombardi – Lol – but he basically says the same thing here.  Sean called the D during 13

 

As for being overruled on the squibb kick, Heath Farwell chose to leave for Jacksonville job because of it.

 

Sean kept quiet about the whole thing allowing Farwell and Leslie to take all the blame with the fans and media.

 

The only person who admitted any fault was Levi Wallace.

 

90% of the Leslie hate on this board began with the false information people believe about :13 

 

You don't have to like, believe or agree with what I've said. But I have no reason to make it up.

 

Pretty much the reason to make it up would be to smear McD. Which wouldn’t be shocking motivation lol

[Nephilim17]

1 hour ago, Long Suffering Fan said:

 

I am not saying he was.  Just the opposite.  Back then, if you argued that you were glad Leslie is gone, you would be confronted by those defending his competence.  I agree with his competence.  I'm saying that is not a valid argument because that is not why I was glad he was gone.

Ah, I misread the following:

"I am ecstatic that Frazier will not be the DC here next year.  While I recognize his skill, I also recognize 13 seconds and the Cincy game.  I am not ecstatic that he is gone because he was incompetent."

 

That can be read two ways and I see what you mean now.
 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

I will never understand this logic that McD was somehow just a completely helpless bystander to witness all of this. 

 

He absolutely could have changed anything he wanted to including the DC himself for all of these years. He is ultimately the one responsible for the defense's shortcomings over the years, especially in big games and spots. 

 

I hope things have changed but I'll have to see it in those big games and spots to believe it. It's on him...it always has been. 

[Einstein's Dog]

6 hours ago, Long Suffering Fan said:

I am ecstatic that Frazier will not be the DC here next year.  While I recognize his skill, I also recognize 13 seconds and the Cincy game.  I am not ecstatic that he is gone because he was incompetent.  I am ecstatic because I have come to the opinion that he would hurt us in big playoff moments and make it very difficult for us to win the big one.  I don't care if the Bills are a dominant defense against bad teams.  I need them to be a good defense that limits the best teams.

 

That is EXACTLY how I feel about Leslie Frazier.

 

You know, our defense could be worse next year, especially with the looming player departures.  I realize that Frazier moving on is not a guarantee of improvement, but its a chance. 

 

The timing of reposting makes it seem like this is some sort of victory post.  Yet by your own self proclaimed playoff centric views that won't be determined until much later.

 

I liked the change because I didn't like how Frazier employed the bend but don't break style.  While the win-lose numbers don't bear it out, I didn't like giving QBs that I considered inferior the ability to dink and dunk down the field.  It gave the Mac Jones, Zach Wilsons, K Picketts of the world breathing room and a chance to keep things unnecessarily close.  And it didn't seem like a good idea against Burrow either.

 

I like what this defense is doing so far, the more aggressive and unpredictable style.  But we also have better personnel - Floyd is a major upgrade.  And it is starting to look like Edmunds was not only bad, but detrimental to running an aggressive style (when he was injured and we put in Klein I liked the D better).

[BADOLBILZ]

You aren't wrong that Frazier might not have been good enough, in the Bills situation, to win a SB with.........but in fairness to your post being relegated.........it was a LONG WAY to go to make a pretty common fan point.

 

It's not out of the box for fans to think they can't win a SB with so-and-so.

[MJS]

1 hour ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

I trust my source, and no, it wasn’t Michael Lombardi – Lol – but he basically says the same thing here.  Sean called the D during 13

 

As for being overruled on the squibb kick, Heath Farwell chose to leave for Jacksonville job because of it.

 

Sean kept quiet about the whole thing allowing Farwell and Leslie to take all the blame with the fans and media.

 

The only person who admitted any fault was Levi Wallace.

 

90% of the Leslie hate on this board began with the false information people believe about :13 

 

You don't have to like, believe or agree with what I've said. But I have no reason to make it up.

I don't think you are making it up, but I do think you are putting too much stock into unsubstantiated rumors and conspiracies.

 

Until an actual source with information presents itself, I'm not going to trust junk like this.

 

McDermott took 90% of the blame for 13 seconds. Farwell and Frazier did not take the brunt of the blame from fans and the media. McDermott clearly did, and still does.

[Long Suffering Fan]

2 hours ago, JTown said:

The interesting thing to me is Why do you feel that the mods took your post down?

Was it because of the thread that it was in?

 

Nothing nefarious.  It was a thread I started that was caught up in the wash of other threads started about Frazier.  I thought it was different enough.  My bad.

 

44 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

You aren't wrong that Frazier might not have been good enough, in the Bills situation, to win a SB with.........but in fairness to your post being relegated.........it was a LONG WAY to go to make a pretty common fan point.

 

Fair.  It is long.  But there was an argument being made at that time that people who were glad Frazier was gone were idiots.  I felt that the heart of the matter was that we didn't think he was bad, just not good enough.  I thought it was an insightful comparison.

 

I'm a heavy reader here, but not a heavy poster, so I kind of forgot about it until now.

[PBF81]

8 hours ago, SCBills said:

 

We've had 3 games of 4th Quarter garbage stats.

 

McDermott has years of tape/tendencies as a DC.  He's not running some kind of innovative scheme.. It's what his pedigree was in the past - mixing coverages on the back end with a lot of creeper pressure / simulated pressure looks up front. 

 

He's also got years of incredibly mediocre defensive team performance as well.  

 

The Jets game was hardly garbage stats, and to your point, I cited a comp between this and last season, the same could be said for last season.  Feel free to try to explain that away, but again, it's early, we'll see.  

 

Remember last season, after five or six games everyone had us going to and winning the Super Bowl.