2023 MVP: Lamar will win it with 15 fewer TDs than Josh Allen (end of season talk pg 75+)

[Dr.Sack]

Josh Allen

2-0 vs AFC Pro Bowl Tua

1-0 vs NFC Pro Bowl Dak

1-0 vs AFC Pro Bowl Mahomes

 

The playoffs gonna be a Josh Allen revenge tour. Taking souls. 

[balln]

1 minute ago, VW82 said:

I still can't get over the fact that so many of you thought Allen was good yesterday. Beyond his four turnovers, one of his "good" plays was a fluky throw off a helmet that happened to fall into the back of the endzone for a TD. 

 

I hate that I'm now coming off as a hater because I'm not. I love Allen, but this thread is making me crazy and questioning some posters grasp on reality. Every week it's the same thing. We excuse every Allen mistake. It's someone else's fault every time. Gabe ran the wrong way (even though he ran into wide open space in the endzone). Wilkens just made a great play. Throwing an INT on 4th down was the "right" decision. Throwing it into play with the clock winding to zero was just giving us a chance and not sacrificing points. Give me a break. 

 

Josh is a top 5ish player in the league. He has the talent to be the best player. But we fall over ourselves making excuses for him at every turn and it's maddening. 

Until the punt return - I was cursing and saying he was a major choke artist and costing us. 
 

sometimes your team mates have to make plays and get you juiced. Literally Allen went into god mode after that. 
 

he and no one- literally can be perfect at all times. 
 

but he really only had 3 bad plays. Critical and magnified as they were in scoring position. And it killed his team.

But Lamar literally falls around a ref / and then intentionally grounds it for a safety vs niners and it doesn’t show up on his “stat” sheet. Won’t show up as a sack, turnover or 2 points against….
 

he’s a gun slinger. That Ty Johnson play- yell at Brady - don’t have him run a route short of the end zone. 

[Warcodered]

30 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Again, Allen played one more game than Lamar, so yardage is irrelevant as they are close to equal if Lamas plays final game and could have even over taken Allen.  You’ve been told this multiple times, but still ignore it.

 

And 2 wins is a TON in the NFL where teams with TIED records aren’t in the playoffs.  And the fact that Bills were not even assured a playoff spot in the final weekend you would think you would know that.  Not to mention, Lamar didn’t get that last loss as he didn’t play.  
 

Again, he only has the total TDs over Lamar.  Lamar is better in every other metric or rating than Allen this year.  
 

So again, all you have done is cherry pick 2 “season total” stats, one of which is irrelevant cuz they are near equal.  But ignored Allen’s dubious stats on INTs and total Turnovers, worse record, worse efficiency and ratings, etc etc.  

 

You can’t build an MVP campaign on just total TDs when Allen doesn’t beat Lamar in much anything else.  
 

This is the most homer conversation I have ever seen.  I love Allen, I would win money if Allen got MVP and owe money if he doesn’t and I still would not vote for Allen over Lamar.  
 

Allen was robbed of the Pro Bowl though 

"No none of your things count only mine do." 🙄

 

Really we're going to assume Lamar is just going to crank out 328 passing yards against the Steelers defense when the team didn't even break 300 total yards against them when he played them.

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

So to assume Lamar repeats his struggles in the second showing against them is just silly when you just watched Allen have a bad game and good game against a divisional foe.

Right only positive assumptions. Seriously just assume he's going to have one of his best statistical games of the season yet to get over the gap to catch up, like really. Wins matter sure but it's not some massive gap it's 2 and Bills have a good record there's just a multi-car pileup at 9 and 10 wins in the AFC this year. Guess what in the AFC the Bills have the second best record.

 

24 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I hate that I agree with you on most of this…but I do.  I feel like I need a shower now 😂

 

Allen had 5 standout games (Raiders, Wash, 1st Miami, 2nd Jets, and Eagles.  But we still lost one of them (Eagles) when a bad Allen INT helped start an Eagles comeback they eventually won.  
 

The rest of the games Allen and the offense underperformed, and ranged from bad to just ok.  

Yeah he's wrong and a troll, Bills are 5-1 against playoff teams, Ravens 6-3, 6-2 if you lop off the last game.

Edited January 9 by Warcodered

[DapperCam]

16 minutes ago, VW82 said:

I still can't get over the fact that so many of you thought Allen was good yesterday. Beyond his four turnovers, one of his "good" plays was a fluky throw off a helmet that happened to fall into the back of the endzone for a TD. 

 

I hate that I'm now coming off as a hater because I'm not. I love Allen, but this thread is making me crazy and questioning some posters grasp on reality. Every week it's the same thing. We excuse every Allen mistake. It's someone else's fault every time. Gabe ran the wrong way (even though he ran into wide open space in the endzone). Wilkens just made a great play so it's not Josh's fault he fumbled.. Throwing an INT on 4th down was the "right" decision. Throwing it into play with the clock winding to zero was just giving us a chance and not sacrificing points. Give me a break. 

 

Josh is a top 5ish player in the league. He has the talent to be the best player. But we fall over ourselves making excuses for him at every turn and it's maddening. 

You seem to be a certifiable player hater. I can't get over the fact that anybody would think Allen threw the game away and won off of pure luck.

- 101.6 passer rating, which is pretty good and includes the turnovers
- 2 TDs could have easily been 3 TDs if Cook doesn't drop an easy TD or Ben Johnson doesn't get stuffed at the 1
- 79% completion percentage is great
- The Bills running backs average 2.9 yards per carry which is atrocious! Allen had zero support and had to do it all himself. In comparison, the Dolphins RBs average 5.3, which was much better (and I bet it was even higher on their TD drives which were driven by the running game).
- Despite having zero running game and poor pass blocking up the middle the Bills had 26 first downs and *doubled* Miami's time of possession. You don't think that might have contributed to winning the game? Who do you think was responsible for all of those first downs?

Swap QBs between the teams and tell me with a straight face that Tua would have won this game with no running game, pressure up the middle all game, and players dropping wide open TDs. It defies reason.

Edited January 9 by DapperCam

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, balln said:

Kc when they (kc) knew the needed a win and were facing back to back home losses- which never happens. Also

kc D is filthy good. You think Dak goes into arrowhead and wins that game- no way. Well see tua try.

unfortunately don’t get to see Lamar try 

You mean the same Chiefs team that lost at home 20-14 to the Raiders?  Same team that also loss 24-9 to the Broncos and 4 other teams?  That Chiefs team?

 

So you’re saying Dak (no idea why you brought him up when we are talking about Lamar) has no chance of beating the Chiefs at arrowhead?  Come on lol.  You guys are just badly and desperately grasping at straws, and irrelevant ones now to try and make your home town boy the MVP.  I would lovvvvve to see Josh win it, but it’s not his year to win it.

[BullBuchanan]

30 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I hate that I agree with you on most of this…but I do.  I feel like I need a shower now 😂

 

Allen had 5 standout games (Raiders, Wash, 1st Miami, 2nd Jets, and Eagles.  But we still lost one of them (Eagles) when a bad Allen INT helped start an Eagles comeback they eventually won.  
 

The rest of the games Allen and the offense underperformed, and ranged from bad to just ok

 

 

 

No one will be happier than me if he has an MVP season. He just has to have a better year for that to happen. 2020 or 2021 Allen might have been good enough to win it this year.

I'm just hoping he can take that 4th quarter magic and string it together on a run for the next 4 games. All will definitely be forgotten then.

[Alphadawg7]

7 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

"No none of your things count only mine do." 🙄

 

Really we're going to assume Lamar is just going to crank out 328 passing yards against the Steelers defense when the team didn't even break 300 total yards against them when he played them.

Right only positive assumptions. Seriously just assume he's going to have one of his best statistical games of the season yet to get over the gap to catch up, like really. Wins matter sure but it's not some massive gap it's 2 and Bills have a good record there's just a multi-car pileup at 9 and 10 wins in the AFC this year. Guess what in the AFC the Bills have the second best record.

 

Yeah he's wrong and a troll, Bills are 5-1 against playoff teams, Ravens 6-3, 6-2 if you lop off the last game.

Bills have the second best record in the AFC thanks to help like critical injuries across the AFC landscape, especially at QB.  It’s not like they dominated.  We were not even assured a playoff spot until Sunday afternoon.  
 

So suddenly Bills squeak out a close win against a flailing Dolphins team to go from 7th seed to 2nd seed and now some of you want to puff up your Bills chests as if we are some beasts all year?

 

Come on, you can be a fan and be realistic at the same time.  It’s remarkable the Bills turned it around, and we can def make the SB this year.  But that doesn’t change the fact that Josh had more below average to bad games than he had good games.  
 

I’m done with this discussion.  Lamar will not only win, it will be a landslide win and could be near unanimous.  Allen has no shot this year.  You know why?  Because he doesn’t need paragraphs and paragraphs of explanations of why he had a bunch of bad games and tons of turnovers because he didn’t have those issues.  Josh needs those explanations to even to be considered which is why he won’t win.  

[balln]

9 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

You mean the same Chiefs team that lost at home 20-14 to the Raiders?  Same team that also loss 24-9 to the Broncos and 4 other teams?  That Chiefs team?

 

So you’re saying Dak (no idea why you brought him up when we are talking about Lamar) has no chance of beating the Chiefs at arrowhead?  Come on lol.  You guys are just badly and desperately grasping at straws, and irrelevant ones now to try and make your home town boy the MVP.  I would lovvvvve to see Josh win it, but it’s not his year to win it.

You mean where patty throws a pick 6 after he places the ball on the ground for scoop and score on back to back plays? That’s zero reality awareness alpha. 
 

Russ was on fire and I think patty had the flu their game. Not every single game is going to prove or disprove a player 

[Warcodered]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Bills have the second best record in the AFC thanks to help like critical injuries across the AFC landscape, especially at QB.  It’s not like they dominated.  We were not even assured a playoff spot until Sunday afternoon.  
 

So suddenly Bills squeak out a close win against a flailing Dolphins team to go from 7th seed to 2nd seed and now some of you want to puff up your Bills chests as if we are some beasts all year?

 

Come on, you can be a fan and be realistic at the same time.  It’s remarkable the Bills turned it around, and we can def make the SB this year.  But that doesn’t change the fact that Josh had more below average to bad games than he had good games.  
 

I’m done with this discussion.  Lamar will not only win, it will be a landslide win and could be near unanimous.  Allen has no shot this year.  You know why?  Because he doesn’t need paragraphs and paragraphs of explanations of why he had a bunch of bad games and tons of turnovers because he didn’t have those issues.  Josh needs those explanations to even to be considered which is why he won’t win.  

Yes because clearly only the Bills benefited from critical injuries....who won the Ravens division last year again?

[Warcodered]

 

🤔

 

I'm sure those 2 wins didn't matter that much.

Edited January 9 by Warcodered

[LABILLBACKER]

Josh may not win it but there's absolutely no other qb in the NFL I'd want in Buffalo.  And the scary thing is we're winning games while playing poorly. Eventually this team will collectively shift into a level where no one can stop us.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Josh may not win it but there's absolutely no other qb in the NFL I'd want in Buffalo.  And the scary thing is we're winning games while playing poorly. Eventually this team will collectively shift into a level where no one can stop us.

Agreed, there is no one I would rather have than Josh.  But he won’t win MVP this year..:but also, who cares if he does or doesn’t.  I want him to win SB MVP

[Starr Almighty]

3 hours ago, VW82 said:

I still can't get over the fact that so many of you thought Allen was good yesterday. Beyond his four turnovers, one of his "good" plays was a fluky throw off a helmet that happened to fall into the back of the endzone for a TD. 

 

I hate that I'm now coming off as a hater because I'm not. I love Allen, but this thread is making me crazy and questioning some posters grasp on reality. Every week it's the same thing. We excuse every Allen mistake. It's someone else's fault every time. Gabe ran the wrong way (even though he ran into wide open space in the endzone). Wilkens just made a great play so it's not Josh's fault he fumbled.. Throwing an INT on 4th down was the "right" decision. Throwing it into play with the clock winding to zero was just giving us a chance and not sacrificing points. Give me a break. 

 

Josh is a top 5ish player in the league. He has the talent to be the best player. But we fall over ourselves making excuses for him at every turn and it's maddening. 

Yes he was on the cover that's why you feel like this.

[NastyNateSoldiers]

The Media is now giving the MVP to the QB on the best team? This is setting a new precedent an idiotic one at that. 

[Scott7975]

12 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but there seems to be some selective memory going on here because you seem to forget that the offensive struggles of Allen and the offense were a key reason the defense, which was decimated by injuries compared to our mostly healthy offense, was in that position in the first place.

 

 

 

 

Yeah but that happens for every team.  Even Lamar and their offense has struggled and their D kept them in it.

 

 

 

I'm not a PFF guy but I seen this so I will put it in here...

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

11 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Why is Allen more deserving?  Because people want to cherry pick 2 "season total" stats that lack context week to week where he leads in total yards and total TD's?   He also leads in total Interceptions and total turnovers too.

 

MVP is not an award for most passing stats.  Lamar played in one less game than Josh, but still put up 29 total TD's to just 7 INTs and 4500 total yards.  Yards they are about the same as Josh has just over 300 more total yards, but he also played one more game than Lamar.  So odds are they finish pretty close had they played same number of games.  

 

So literally, the ONLY case for Josh is "15 more TD's" but Josh also had 15 more turnovers than Lamar which significantly eats away at the 15 more TD's argument.  And if Lamar plays one more game that 15 TD's gap shrinks a little as Lamar likely adds at least 2 or 3 more to his TD total, possibly more.  

 

Bottom line, Lamar put up 4500 yards in one less game and 29 TD's.  His efficiency was better and he hurt his teams effort to win games far less than Josh did.  

 

I love Josh who is my fave player all time now...I bet on him to be MVP...I would love nothing more than him to be MVP.  But he just isn't more deserving this year than Lamar.  

 

That's the "only case for Josh"??  Did that analysis take, what, 15 seconds? lol, strong work.

 

Allen had 12 games with at least 1 passing and 1 rushing TD.  He led the league in passing yards AND was tied for 2nd in rushing TDs.  He is tied for 2nd with 4 Q comebacks and game winning drives.  7 of his of his 18 INTs came in 3 games. 

 

Jackson isn't top 10 in passing yards or TDs. He had 3 games with no passing or rushing TDs.  They won 2 of them anyway.  Efficiency?  He had 148 carries, scored only 5 TDs, 48 1st downs and fumbled 11 times.  Allen, on 111 carries, scored 15 times, racked 57 1st downs and 7 fumbles.  That's 65% of his runs resulted in either a 1st down or a TD---compared to 36% for Jackson. 

 

If this was 2019 then yes--he was hands down the MVP.  He scored 43 of their 58 TDs. This year, only 29 of their 53.   Allen has scored 44 of the teams 51 TDs, for comparison. 

 

As you now can see--few teams are as dependent on 1 player than the Bills.  They have won 5 in a row--one of the hottest teams in the NFL, after a fairly rough start.  Sure he gets loose with the ball, but that's how he plays.  

 

It's a miracle Jackson has lasted to the end of the season, true, but that doesn't get you the MVP.  Heck, Jordan Love is more deserving--turned around a 3-6 team and got them to the playoffs (something Rodgers could not do last year). 32 passing TD (11 INT) 4 rushing TDs with Romeo Doubs and Jayden Reed as his primary receivers and a mediocre Defense.

 

You are only pushing Jackson because the echo chamber tells you to.  I've shown you why that's the wrong choice.

 

 

 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

That's the "only case for Josh"??  Did that analysis take, what, 15 seconds? lol, strong work.

 

Allen had 12 games with at least 1 passing and 1 rushing TD.  He led the league in passing yards AND was tied for 2nd in rushing TDs.  He is tied for 2nd with 4 Q comebacks and game winning drives.  7 of his of his 18 INTs came in 3 games. 

 

Jackson isn't top 10 in passing yards or TDs. He had 3 games with no passing or rushing TDs.  They won 2 of them anyway.  Efficiency?  He had 148 carries, scored only 5 TDs, 48 1st downs and fumbled 11 times.  Allen, on 111 carries, scored 15 times, racked 57 1st downs and 7 fumbles.  That's 65% of his runs resulted in either a 1st down or a TD---compared to 36% for Jackson. 

 

If this was 2019 then yes--he was hands down the MVP.  He scored 43 of their 58 TDs. This year, only 29 of their 53.   Allen has scored 44 of the teams 51 TDs, for comparison. 

 

As you now can see--few teams are as dependent on 1 player than the Bills.  They have won 5 in a row--one of the hottest teams in the NFL, after a fairly rough start.  Sure he gets loose with the ball, but that's how he plays.  

 

It's a miracle Jackson has lasted to the end of the season, true, but that doesn't get you the MVP.  Heck, Jordan Love is more deserving--turned around a 3-6 team and got them to the playoffs (something Rodgers could not do last year). 32 passing TD (11 INT) 4 rushing TDs with Romeo Doubs and Jayden Reed as his primary receivers and a mediocre Defense.

 

You are only pushing Jackson because the echo chamber tells you to.  I've shown you why that's the wrong choice.

 

 

 

 

Another data point...despite playing 1x less game, Jackson was sacked 37 times to Allen's 24.

[Scott7975]

12 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Why is Allen more deserving?  Because people want to cherry pick 2 "season total" stats that lack context week to week where he leads in total yards and total TD's?   He also leads in total Interceptions and total turnovers too.

 

MVP is not an award for most passing stats.  Lamar played in one less game than Josh, but still put up 29 total TD's to just 7 INTs and 4500 total yards.  Yards they are about the same as Josh has just over 300 more total yards, but he also played one more game than Lamar.  So odds are they finish pretty close had they played same number of games.  

 

So literally, the ONLY case for Josh is "15 more TD's" but Josh also had 15 more turnovers than Lamar which significantly eats away at the 15 more TD's argument.  And if Lamar plays one more game that 15 TD's gap shrinks a little as Lamar likely adds at least 2 or 3 more to his TD total, possibly more.  

 

Bottom line, Lamar put up 4500 yards in one less game and 29 TD's.  His efficiency was better and he hurt his teams effort to win games far less than Josh did.  

 

I love Josh who is my fave player all time now...I bet on him to be MVP...I would love nothing more than him to be MVP.  But he just isn't more deserving this year than Lamar.  

 

MVP is an award for most passing stats and either 1 or 2 seed.  Show me all the winners where they weren't either the 1 or 2 seed and top few in most passing stats.  

 

Allen has 9 more turnovers than Lamar, not 15.  Lamar has 13 turnovers.  Josh has 22.  About a half turnover over per game difference.  Lets be real about this.  Not all turnovers credited are the fault of the QB either.  I can't speak for Lamar but Allen has ints that are just unlucky. A batted ball that gets picked is just unlucky. A ball that hits the receiver in the hands or is stripped away from the receiver is just unlucky or on the receiver. A prayer as the half expires is meaningless.  Allen has a lot of ints but Lamar has a lot of fumbles.  Lamar has a lot more that he was lucky to not lose too which is... just lucky.

 

I am not trying to make a case for Allen to be MVP.  He isn't going to get it.  I'm just saying that the above is true. Lamar had an oooo ahhh game against Miami in a year that no QB is really deserving and became the media hype and thats why he is going to get it.  Josh regularly has those games against Miami including one this year.

 

[Scott7975]

12 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Come on, Allen literally single handedly lost us the week 1 Jets game with 3 INTs.  Then Allen sat most 4th quarter of the second game against Jets in a blow out win.  So to assume Lamar repeats his struggles in the second showing against them is just silly when you just watched Allen have a bad game and good game against a divisional foe.  
 

The only thing Allen has a case for is more TDs.  But that’s is NOT the basis of determining the MVP.  
 

Bottom line is Ravens had a better season, Lamar was less volatile, Lamar had stellar stats himself, and Lamar had less games where he hurt the team than Allen did.  
 

And you didn’t answer my question of why does Allen deserve over Lamar outside of TD total
 

 

 

Did Lamar single handedly lose the Pittsburg game with 2 turnovers?  How about the Browns game with 2 turnovers?  How about the Colts game with no production and 2 fumbles?

 

It may not be the full basis but its a huge part of it.  The last 5 winners, 4 of them lead the league in TD passes and the one that didn't was Rodgers second year where he is was still top 5. You can go back further years and see winners that lead the league in overall TDs or were at least top 3. 15 of the last 26 winners have done so.

 

The Ravens have 2 more wins while playing a second place schedule. Lamar wasn't really all that less volatile. He fumbles the ball a lot.  What stellar stats?  Have you even watched any Ravens games to be able to make that comment that he has less games where he hurt the team?

 

Allen doesn't deserve it but neither does Lamar really, but I will answer why I think Allen deserves it over Lamar.  If you put a backup QB on each team for a full season, then I believe the Ravens still win more games than the Bills.

[Scott7975]

10 hours ago, VW82 said:

I still can't get over the fact that so many of you thought Allen was good yesterday. Beyond his four turnovers, one of his "good" plays was a fluky throw off a helmet that happened to fall into the back of the endzone for a TD. 

 

I hate that I'm now coming off as a hater because I'm not. I love Allen, but this thread is making me crazy and questioning some posters grasp on reality. Every week it's the same thing. We excuse every Allen mistake. It's someone else's fault every time. Gabe ran the wrong way (even though he ran into wide open space in the endzone). Wilkens just made a great play so it's not Josh's fault he fumbled.. Throwing an INT on 4th down was the "right" decision. Throwing it into play with the clock winding to zero was just giving us a chance and not sacrificing points. Give me a break. 

 

Josh is a top 5ish player in the league. He has the talent to be the best player. But we fall over ourselves making excuses for him at every turn and it's maddening. 

 

Dude, he had over 400 yards of offense and 79% completion rating and was responsible for most of those yards.  Dude made some key throws and kept our offense on the field all game long. He did this while being under pressure most of the game.  Miami blitzed at like a 40% rate and got home quite a bit.  Not just with one guy but multiple guys.  This might have been the worst game this oline has played.  Our running game wasn't doing ***** either if it wasn't Allen. The dude made some incredible throws in all that pressure.