2023 MVP: Lamar will win it with 15 fewer TDs than Josh Allen (end of season talk pg 75+)

[Warcodered]

20 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Why is Allen more deserving?  Because people want to cherry pick 2 "season total" stats that lack context week to week where he leads in total yards and total TD's?   He also leads in total Interceptions and total turnovers too.

 

MVP is not an award for most passing stats.  Lamar played in one less game than Josh, but still put up 29 total TD's to just 7 INTs and 4500 total yards.  Yards they are about the same as Josh has just over 300 more total yards, but he also played one more game than Lamar.  So odds are they finish pretty close had they played same number of games.  

 

So literally, the ONLY case for Josh is "15 more TD's" but Josh also had 15 more turnovers than Lamar which significantly eats away at the 15 more TD's argument.  And if Lamar plays one more game that 15 TD's gap shrinks a little as Lamar likely adds at least 2 or 3 more to his TD total, possibly more.  

 

Bottom line, Lamar put up 4500 yards in one less game and 29 TD's.  His efficiency was better and he hurt his teams effort to win games far less than Josh did.  

 

I love Josh who is my fave player all time now...I bet on him to be MVP...I would love nothing more than him to be MVP.  But he just isn't more deserving this year than Lamar.  

Your facts aren't accurate, 1. Allen has 9 more turnovers than Lamar and if we're going to use the fact that Lamar didn't play this last week in his favor for positive stats I suppose we have to use it for negative ones to. Hey they played them before how'd he do then....oh 2 turnovers well that's not nice oh and they even took a safety on a punt when he couldn't get them out from the shadow of their own goalpost.

 

But like how in just one more game Lamar is somehow going to put a significant dent into Josh's 15 TD lead against a defense that he lost against with the exact same score his backup did, only he didn't have any turnovers.

 

2. Josh doesn't lead the league in turnovers.

[Alphadawg7]

14 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Your facts aren't accurate, 1. Allen has 9 more turnovers than Lamar and if we're going to use the fact that Lamar didn't play this last week in his favor for positive stats I suppose we have to use it for negative ones to. Hey they played them before how'd he do then....oh 2 turnovers well that's not nice oh and they even took a safety on a punt when he couldn't get them out from the shadow of their own goalpost.

 

But like how in just one more game Lamar is somehow going to put a significant dent into Josh's 15 TD lead against a defense that he lost against with the exact same score his backup did, only he didn't have any turnovers.

 

2. Josh doesn't lead the league in turnovers.

Come on, Allen literally single handedly lost us the week 1 Jets game with 3 INTs.  Then Allen sat most 4th quarter of the second game against Jets in a blow out win.  So to assume Lamar repeats his struggles in the second showing against them is just silly when you just watched Allen have a bad game and good game against a divisional foe.  
 

The only thing Allen has a case for is more TDs.  But that’s is NOT the basis of determining the MVP.  
 

Bottom line is Ravens had a better season, Lamar was less volatile, Lamar had stellar stats himself, and Lamar had less games where he hurt the team than Allen did.  
 

And you didn’t answer my question of why does Allen deserve over Lamar outside of TD total
 

 

Edited January 9 by Alphadawg7

[Warcodered]

15 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

So to assume Lamar repeats his struggles in the second showing against them is just silly when you just watched Allen have a bad game and good game against a divisional foe.

Yeah just making assumptions on games that weren't played is ridiculous.

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

And if Lamar plays one more game that 15 TD's gap shrinks a little as Lamar likely adds at least 2 or 3 more to his TD total, possibly more.

and Allen has 9 games with 250+ passing yards Lamar has 5, I looked 300+ games and Allen has 5 to Lamar's 3 so I don't know maybe Lamar doesn't catch up against the Steelers who's best feature is defense. 🤷‍♂️

 

Why Allen?

 

 

2 seed, 11-6 in 3 of those losses he left the field with the lead.

 

5 game winning streak.

Edited January 9 by Warcodered

[Warcodered]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Yards they are near a wash.  So that’s not a reason.  
 

TDs is again, all you have.  Lamar had better record, less bad games, less turnovers, higher QB ratings in almost every category.  
 

Again, the MVP award is NOT for most QB TDs.  Allen literally has nothing over Lamar outside TDs, while Lamar has bested Allen in almost every other category including team success.  
 

I hate that I am being made to argue against Allen, he’s my fave player all time.  But Lamar deserves it more this year and had less to work with than Allen did as well.  

 

Passing yards, Passing TDs, Rushing TDs, Total Yards, Total TDs

 

But nah let's just ignore them all?

 

and by team success do you mean 2 more wins?

[BullBuchanan]

It's still wild people are still arguing Allen was legitimately close here. He wasn't in the conversation by a mile and won't finish top 3 in voting. He may not even be top 4. I'd absolutely put Stroud over him.

Allen played 1 phenomenal quarter of football out of the last 12 and was largely awful for the rest of it. As far as high-end complete games, he had 4 maybe 5 and several of those were against weak teams. That's not MVP caliber.

All we needed from him yesterday was to not put us in a massive hole, which he did. Then we needed him to be superman to pull us out of it - which he did. How many accolades should a guy get who repeatedly does that when a pedestrian game management QB would have been good enough to completely roll the opponent?

Our defense holds the highest scoring and top yardage team in the league to 14 points - including none int he 2nd half and somehow we call Allen the hero.

Edited January 9 by BullBuchanan

[Kaenon]

16 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Yards they are near a wash.  So that’s not a reason.  
 

TDs is again, all you have.  Lamar had better record, less bad games, less turnovers, higher QB ratings in almost every category.  
 

Again, the MVP award is NOT for most QB TDs.  Allen literally has nothing over Lamar outside TDs, while Lamar has bested Allen in almost every other category including team success.  
 

I hate that I am being made to argue against Allen, he’s my fave player all time.  But Lamar deserves it more this year and had less to work with than Allen did as well.  

1 playoff win with Lamar.

[Eastport bills]

Josh had a good season but his first 10/11 games with Dorsey were choppy. He built stats because he was the offense. His next 7 games were MVP level, overcoming a tough schedule and injuries to win 6 of 7 and winning the division. Lamar was more consistent and had convincing wins against elite playoff teams(Niners, Dolphins, Rams, Lions)  If you’re being objective Lamar deserves the MVP. Hopefully we get to play them in the AFC Championship and Josh beats him straight up.

[Man with No Name]

13 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

It's still wild people are still arguing Allen was legitimately close here. He wasn't in the conversation by a mile and won't finish top 3 in voting. He may not even be top 4. I'd absolutely put Stroud over him.

Allen played 1 phenomenal quarter of football out of the last 12 and was largely awful for the rest of it. As far as high-end complete games, he had 4 maybe 5 and several of those were against weak teams. That's not MVP caliber.

All we needed from him yesterday was to not put us in a massive hole, which he did. Then we needed him to be superman to pull us out of it - which he did. How many accolades should a guy get who repeatedly does that when a pedestrian game management QB would have been good enough to completely roll the opponent?

Our defense holds the highest scoring and top yardage team in the league to 14 points - including none int he 2nd half and somehow we call Allen the hero.

Maybe you didn't notice that even with all the turnovers, allen was marching up and down the field. it's not like the defense spent the entire game out there. A pedestrian game management qb very well might have had several 3 and outs, making our defense put in 2x the work. How does that work out? Maybe you didn't notice that even in our awful first half, we still had longer time of possession. in the second half we destroyed the in this area. 23 minutes!  A pedestrian game manager might have put 10 on the board. our defense might have been warn down. and the dolphins might have scored 30.  

[balln]

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

Your facts aren't accurate, 1. Allen has 9 more turnovers than Lamar and if we're going to use the fact that Lamar didn't play this last week in his favor for positive stats I suppose we have to use it for negative ones to. Hey they played them before how'd he do then....oh 2 turnovers well that's not nice oh and they even took a safety on a punt when he couldn't get them out from the shadow of their own goalpost.

 

But like how in just one more game Lamar is somehow going to put a significant dent into Josh's 15 TD lead against a defense that he lost against with the exact same score his backup did, only he didn't have any turnovers.

 

2. Josh doesn't lead the league in turnovers.

I’ll help you add to this. Bal played 8th strength of schedule. Bills 3rd 

 

I really want to know what each top

qb faces in terms of defensive dvoa for the year. Competition faced matters. 

bills played a first place schedule

bal a second (I think Cincy won division last year)

 

bal played what afc south this year ? Jax just fired their entire D staff, colts , hou , ten (I watched a lot of ten- they have one of the worst secondary I have seen in a long time) 

and nfc west. Rams hawks and zona. Niners game purdy vomitted 4 times…but Lamar played a solid / clean game. I didn’t think he wowed 

 

these factors matter. No one ever mentions these things 

 

 

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, balln said:

I’ll help you add to this. Bal played 8th strength of schedule. Bills 3rd 

 

I really want to know what each top

qb faces in terms of defensive dvoa for the year. Competition faced matters. 

bills played a first place schedule

bal a second (I think Cincy won division last year)

 

bal played what afc south this year ? Jax just fired their entire D staff, colts , hou , ten (I watched a lot of ten- they have one of the worst secondary I have seen in a long time) 

and nfc west. Rams hawks and zona. Niners game purdy vomitted 4 times…but Lamar played a solid / clean game. I didn’t think he wowed 

 

these factors matter. No one ever mentions these things 

 

 

That is true I think remember checking the best/only good team they beat before the 49ers was the Lions.

Edited January 9 by Warcodered

[balln]

35 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

It's still wild people are still arguing Allen was legitimately close here. He wasn't in the conversation by a mile and won't finish top 3 in voting. He may not even be top 4. I'd absolutely put Stroud over him.

Allen played 1 phenomenal quarter of football out of the last 12 and was largely awful for the rest of it. As far as high-end complete games, he had 4 maybe 5 and several of those were against weak teams. That's not MVP caliber.

All we needed from him yesterday was to not put us in a massive hole, which he did. Then we needed him to be superman to pull us out of it - which he did. How many accolades should a guy get who repeatedly does that when a pedestrian game management QB would have been good enough to completely roll the opponent?

Our defense holds the highest scoring and top yardage team in the league to 14 points - including none int he 2nd half and somehow we call Allen the hero.

I get some of what you are saying. What if Gabe gives a better target or look to Allen during that all out blitz ? Maybe throw is diff

 

what if Torrence doesn’t absolutely get abused and Wilkinson literally tackled the ball out of Allen 

 

what if the refs called targeting w a clear helmet to

helmet on a defenseless receiver - ball on 1 and Allen scores another rushing td? 
 

what if cook doesn’t have an atrocious drop for a perfect on the run dime over the defender in his damn bread basket? 
 

team game fellas

 

2 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

That is true I think remember checking the best/only good team they beat before the 49ers was the Lions.

Right and the lions D is not formidable especially the secondary. 

[Alphadawg7]

31 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

Passing yards, Passing TDs, Rushing TDs, Total Yards, Total TDs

 

But nah let's just ignore them all?

 

and by team success do you mean 2 more wins?

Again, Allen played one more game than Lamar, so yardage is irrelevant as they are close to equal if Lamas plays final game and could have even over taken Allen.  You’ve been told this multiple times, but still ignore it.

 

And 2 wins is a TON in the NFL where teams with TIED records aren’t in the playoffs.  And the fact that Bills were not even assured a playoff spot in the final weekend you would think you would know that.  Not to mention, Lamar didn’t get that last loss as he didn’t play.  
 

Again, he only has the total TDs over Lamar.  Lamar is better in every other metric or rating than Allen this year.  
 

So again, all you have done is cherry pick 2 “season total” stats, one of which is irrelevant cuz they are near equal.  But ignored Allen’s dubious stats on INTs and total Turnovers, worse record, worse efficiency and ratings, etc etc.  

 

You can’t build an MVP campaign on just total TDs when Allen doesn’t beat Lamar in much anything else.  
 

This is the most homer conversation I have ever seen.  I love Allen, I would win money if Allen got MVP and owe money if he doesn’t and I still would not vote for Allen over Lamar.  
 

Allen was robbed of the Pro Bowl though 

[balln]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Again, Allen played one more game than Lamar, so yardage is irrelevant as they are close to equal if Lamas plays final game and could have even over taken Allen.  You’ve been told this multiple times, but still ignore it.

 

And 2 wins is a TON in the NFL where teams with TIED records aren’t in the playoffs.  And the fact that Bills were not even assured a playoff spot in the final weekend you would think you would know that.  Not to mention, Lamar didn’t get that last loss as he didn’t play.  
 

Again, he only has the total TDs over Lamar.  Lamar is better in every other metric or rating than Allen this year.  
 

So again, all you have done is cherry pick 2 “season total” stats, one of which is irrelevant cuz they are near equal.  But ignored Allen’s dubious stats on INTs and total Turnovers, worse record, worse efficiency and ratings, etc etc.  

 

You can’t build an MVP campaign on just total TDs when Allen doesn’t beat Lamar in much anything else.  
 

This is the most homer conversation I have ever seen.  I love Allen, I would win money if Allen got MVP and owe money if he doesn’t and I still would not vote for Allen over Lamar.  
 

Allen was robbed of the Pro Bowl though 

Ok so Lamar plays in that slop fest nor Easter vs Pitt and adds 120 yards passing and 60 yards rushing. 1 td and 1 to. What a case you’ve made

 

 

The 3 and 13 scramble run. To milk the clock and keep the effort to finish the game on offense. Will be BURNED into my brain for all of time. And I’m super critical of bills and Allen. If only he just made the routine safe plays more routinely 

Edited January 9 by balln

[Alphadawg7]

46 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

It's still wild people are still arguing Allen was legitimately close here. He wasn't in the conversation by a mile and won't finish top 3 in voting. He may not even be top 4. I'd absolutely put Stroud over him.

Allen played 1 phenomenal quarter of football out of the last 12 and was largely awful for the rest of it. As far as high-end complete games, he had 4 maybe 5 and several of those were against weak teams. That's not MVP caliber.

All we needed from him yesterday was to not put us in a massive hole, which he did. Then we needed him to be superman to pull us out of it - which he did. How many accolades should a guy get who repeatedly does that when a pedestrian game management QB would have been good enough to completely roll the opponent?

Our defense holds the highest scoring and top yardage team in the league to 14 points - including none int he 2nd half and somehow we call Allen the hero.

I hate that I agree with you on most of this…but I do.  I feel like I need a shower now 😂

 

Allen had 5 standout games (Raiders, Wash, 1st Miami, 2nd Jets, and Eagles.  But we still lost one of them (Eagles) when a bad Allen INT helped start an Eagles comeback they eventually won.  
 

The rest of the games Allen and the offense underperformed, and ranged from bad to just ok

 

 

 

Edited January 9 by Alphadawg7

[balln]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

I hate that I agree with you on most of this…but I do.  I feel like I need a shower now 😂

 

Allen had 5 standout games (Raiders, Wash, 1st Miami, 2nd Jets, and Eagles.  But we still lost one of them (Eagles) when a bad Allen INT helped start an Eagles comeback they eventually won.  
 

The rest of the games Allen and the offense underperformed, and ranged from bad to just ok.  

Are we forgetting the head coach HAD to fire the offensive coordinator ? And install a new interim coordinator - that can’t even really run HIS offense, because you know…. It’s the middle of the god dang season and they’re 6-6 and you simply have to make the best of what has been installed from preseason…..

 

before you say Allen caused the firing ….dont think that’s the major reason

 

are we also not forgetting Allen has had his ac joint destroyed in his throwing shoulder - basically all season….? Yet no one gives him a pass (although I think romo or fitz gave him some sympathy re injury) 

 

meanwhile Trent green literally every bad throw or int was ascribing T law to his AC joint 

[Alphadawg7]

40 minutes ago, Kaenon said:

1 playoff win with Lamar.

How is this a real comment?  Do you even know what thread you are in or what the MVP trophy is for?  Let me help you…it’s for the most recent regular season.  They don’t hand it out based on career playoff records LMAO.  This is the most irrelevant comment in the whole thread lol.  

[balln]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I hate that I agree with you on most of this…but I do.  I feel like I need a shower now 😂

 

Allen had 5 standout games (Raiders, Wash, 1st Miami, 2nd Jets, and Eagles.  But we still lost one of them (Eagles) when a bad Allen INT helped start an Eagles comeback they eventually won.  
 

The rest of the games Allen and the offense underperformed, and ranged from bad to just ok.  

Kc when they (kc) knew the needed a win and were facing back to back home losses- which never happens. Also

kc D is filthy good. You think Dak goes into arrowhead and wins that game- no way. Well see tua try.

unfortunately don’t get to see Lamar try 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, balln said:

Are we forgetting the head coach HAD to fire the offensive coordinator ? And install a new interim coordinator - that can’t even really run HIS offense, because you know…. It’s the middle of the god dang season and they’re 6-6 and you simply have to make the best of what has been installed from preseason…..

 

before you say Allen caused the firing ….dont think that’s the major reason

 

are we also not forgetting Allen has had his ac joint destroyed in his throwing shoulder - basically all season….? Yet no one gives him a pass (although I think romo or fitz gave him some sympathy re injury) 

 

meanwhile Trent green literally every bad throw or int was ascribing T law to his AC joint 

None of that matters.  You know Allen’s turnover rate is the same under Brady as it was under Dorsey right?  You know Allen’s passing stats are relatively pedestrian since Eagles game right?  
 

I was the one banging the loudest drum to fire Dorsey.  The offense is better since Brady took over, but not because the passing offense improved, but because we run the ball now and that’s helped bail out pass game struggles to win close games where we had been losing close games under Dorsey who didn’t run the ball.  
 

 

[VW82]

I still can't get over the fact that so many of you thought Allen was good yesterday. Beyond his four turnovers, one of his "good" plays was a fluky throw off a helmet that happened to fall into the back of the endzone for a TD. 

 

I hate that I'm now coming off as a hater because I'm not. I love Allen, but this thread is making me crazy and questioning some posters grasp on reality. Every week it's the same thing. We excuse every Allen mistake. It's someone else's fault every time. Gabe ran the wrong way (even though he ran into wide open space in the endzone). Wilkens just made a great play so it's not Josh's fault he fumbled.. Throwing an INT on 4th down was the "right" decision. Throwing it into play with the clock winding to zero was just giving us a chance and not sacrificing points. Give me a break. 

 

Josh is a top 5ish player in the league. He has the talent to be the best player. But we fall over ourselves making excuses for him at every turn and it's maddening. 

Edited January 9 by VW82

[balln]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

None of that matters.  You know Allen’s turnover rate is the same under Brady as it was under Dorsey right?  You know Allen’s passing stats are relatively pedestrian since Eagles game right?  
 

I was the one banging the loudest drum to fire Dorsey.  The offense is better since Brady took over, but not because the passing offense improved, but because we run the ball now and that’s helped bail out pass game struggles to win close games where we had been losing close games under Dorsey who didn’t run the ball.  
 

 

Compare the quality of D and teams played in both. And get back to me.