2023 MVP: Lamar will win it with 15 fewer TDs than Josh Allen (end of season talk pg 75+)

[Patrick Duffy]

21 minutes ago, cisco2403 said:

Allen is a huge reason for why the oline hasn’t lost us a single game. Just this past game, they allowed a complete jailbreak and Allen had to make an amazing throw to get the first down and get us in field goal range to win the game. If it wasn’t for Allen’s throw, he would have been sacked for a 10 yard loss. 

 

These things happen sometimes to every team, even the ones with the best Olines. I mean I don't see how you or anyone can deny the improvement of this Oline

[HappyDays]

16 minutes ago, FireChans said:

If you truly think the Bills are absolutely awful and their defense sucks and their weapons suck and their OL sucks and their coach sucks

 

I think the defense and OL have both been good enough. Not elite, but playoff caliber. There was a stretch in the middle there where the defense was literally the worst in the league but they've gotten back to a top 12 level.

 

I do think the weapons mostly suck. I don't think they are really playoff caliber, Allen is just carrying them to produce well above their talent level would suggest.

 

Diggs has not been that good this year. Davis has disappeared in like half of his games. Shakir is a JAG. Harty and Sherfield are less than JAGs.

 

You know I loved Kincaid in the draft but he has really struggled to separare from physical coverage as of late. Too often I see him laying on the turf after his initial release. He is hearing footsteps and failing to catch the ball too frequently. As a result he has been removed from the offensive game plan over the past few games.

 

Cook has flashed superstar abilities at times, but the offense has not consistently been able to run through him and he makes too many mistakes to be totally trustworthy. The other RBs are JAGS.

 

So yeah it is a below average group of weapons being carried by a QB playing better than any other QB in the league.

 

I still don't trust McDermott in playoff scenarios or close games against good opponents, but he has a chance to right that ship this year.

[julian]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

He got tripped by the ref for the safety. Talk about “watching the games” lol.

He virtually ran straight backwards 20 into the end zone… it was a horrible non MVP play by Lamar, it was only one play so it’s not the end of the world but it was an awful play by Lamar.

[cisco2403]

4 minutes ago, Patrick Duffy said:

 

These things happen sometimes to every team, even the ones with the best Olines. I mean I don't see how you or anyone can deny the improvement of this Oline

I’m not saying it wasn’t improved. What I was responding to was the notion that the oline didn’t lose a game for us, which if it wasn’t for Allen’s maneuvering and throw, that may have been the game for us on that play and most likely the season. 

[GunnerBill]

39 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't know about you Gunner, but I've personally been thinking that OL play across the league has gotten to be pretty similar. I would describe most OLs as average. There's a couple great ones - Eagles and Lions - and a few awful ones - Giants, Panthers, a couple others - but most are at about the same level I would say. So while I would agree the Bills OL has improved from the ranks of awful to the ranks of good enough, I would not say it has been a true advantage for our team this year.

 

I am not arguing our line is elite. It isn't at that standard. But it is a good line. Easily the best Josh has had. Borderline top 10. 

 

EDIT: I'd say of the perceived "contenders" only the Eagles and Lions are better. Ravens and Cowboys on a par. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Patrick Duffy]

Just now, cisco2403 said:

I’m not saying it wasn’t improved. What I was responding to was the notion that the oline didn’t lose a game for us, which if it wasn’t for Allen’s maneuvering and throw, that may have been the game for us on that play and most likely the season. 

Ok, I got it. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Didn't pay enough attention to all the details from the other post you were responding to.

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Flowers is a stud. The rest are meh. I know we had a 150 page on his being our number 2 receiver, but he is not even a top 30 receiver at this point of his career. I’d rather have Davis than him (though hopefully we improve that spot next year). Gus Edwards was their 3rd string rb to start the year. And Lamar hasn’t had his best offensive weapon for the last 3 games. 
 

Thise WRs get open because they are terrified by Lamar running. Same thing with most mobile QBs. Lamar might be the best rushing qb ever so it puts defenses in a bind. 
 

I can post his backups stats when they played vs his. The drop off is major (losing record l, more turnovers than TDS). 

 

You smokin something if you rather have Davis than Flowers.  Flowers is a well rounded receiver.  Davis is a one trick pony with unreliable hands. Allen is also a danger to run and while different than Lamar, just as dangerous. So much so that Chargers used a double spy on Allen to keep him contained. Our WR's are stuck to like glue.

 

For your other post, yeah I would take Cook over Mixon all day.  However their trio as a whole is way better than our trio as a whole.  I would think it was closer if Diggs was having a year like in years past but he isn't.  He isn't getting good separation and he is dropping a lot of balls this year that he shouldn't.  I love Diggs but he is having a down year... and I mean that from a skill perspective, not a stat one.

[Patrick Duffy]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not arguing our line is elite. It isn't at that standard. But it is a good line. Easily the best Josh has had. Borderline top 10. 

This is spot on here and hard to argue any different imo. Fully agree and it isn't anyone claiming they are "elite" (least I would hope not)..... but I think it's quite clear that this Oline has performed much better and don't see how that can be disputed.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

He got tripped by the ref for the safety. Talk about “watching the games” lol.

 

The ref never touched him.  I posted the clip you can clearly see the ref raised his legs and never touched Jackson.  Lamar tripped on his own feet then tried to throw the ball away causing a penalty in the end zone which is what the actual safety was called for.  Lets not mention it was Lamar that ran 20 yards back to the end zone to begin with.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Scott7975

[Ya Digg?]

57 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

the passes are not thrown straight to the DB. We’re trying to get a penalty on a deep pass.  we’re trying to give the receiver a chance to play on the ball. They just happen to to get picked.
 

 

So do other QBs have as many “arm punts” as Josh does? I honestly don’t even remember the term arm punt before a couple of years ago. It’s semantics and sure sometimes it’s just as good as a punt, but they do play into the national narrative about Josh and turnovers. Yeah a couple of times he gave his WR a shot, but there’s been a couple where he gave no one a chance besides the defensive player 

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Their defense has 2 more takeaways than us all year. 2. 

 

There is more to defense than just takeaways.

 

Ravens rank 5th on opponent 3rd down conversion rate.  The Bills are 16th. 

Ravens defense is 2nd on first down defense. The Bills are 17th.

Ravens are 1st on 2nd down defense. The Bills are 15th.

Ravens are 2nd on opponent 4th down conversion rate.  The Bills are 18th.

 

What does this mean?  It means the Ravens stop drives. The Bills let other teams march down the field.

[FireChans]

17 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

The ref never touched him.  I posted the clip you can clearly see the ref raised his legs and never touched Jackson.  Lamar tripped on his own feet then tried to throw the ball away causing a penalty in the end zone which is what the actual safety was called for.  Lets not mention it was Lamar that ran 20 yards back to the end zone to begin with.

In the immortal words of @HappyDays, you take the good with the bad!

[Scott7975]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

In the immortal words of @HappyDays, you take the good with the bad!

 

Like another guy said, it's one play and not the end of the world.  Lamar would many times get out of trouble to make a big play so yeah, that is taking the good with the bad.  To act like it wasn't a bad play from Lamar and be disingenuous about it is another thing though.  It was a bad play by Lamar period.  If Allen did that, I would be ok with it because I know a lot of times Allen also pulls off a miracle in the same situation, but I would still call it dumb.  Just take the sack there.  How many times do people complain when Allen takes a sack that puts us out of FG range?  Its ok for Lamar though?

 

I don't want to take away from Lamar.  He had a good game but he was also set up by his defense to win that game easily.  Easy drive starts.  Like 5 extra opportunities with the ball.  Doesn't get easier than that.  I don't care who they are playing.  Lamar isn't having an MVP season.  The season he won it, he had one and deserved it.  This year he didn't and doesn't.  The MVP of that game was the defense, not him.  People look at the score and go oooooo ahhhhhhhhhhhh, but they don't remember the struggles Lamar had until his defense kept giving him the ball over and over in good field position and SF wore out.

 

Despite the record, Allen has had a better MVP campaign than Lamar.  That is my opinion and no one is going to change that.

[HappyDays]

39 minutes ago, FireChans said:

In the immortal words of @HappyDays, you take the good with the bad!

 

Lol you're being really weird about this. Great QBs have to take risks. It was a complaint about Rodgers, he wouldn't throw a lot of INTs but then he would get to the playoffs and would play too conservative and the Packers would lose. Great for his stat sheet, not so great for beating elite teams. It's a tricky needle to thread. You don't want to be Jameis Winston but you don't want to be Tyrod Taylor either. As I've said a few times I think Allen has crossed the line between aggressive and reckless a tad too often this year, especially against bad opponents where an ugly win would get it done. I would still rather have 40 TDs with 15 INTs than say 30 TDs with 8 INTs though. Turnover differential is a fun stat but points on the board are actually what win games.

[ganesh]

22 hours ago, DapperCam said:

I pretty much disagree completely. Also almost all of the “arm punts” this year have given his receiver a chance and they have come up with none of them. One the DB yanked the ball right out of Diggs’ hands.

 

I see WR on other teams make athletic catches down the field every week and ours can’t even do it once.

Digss one handed catch (twice)....Davis stretching to get that ball for TD... They have been there...  What we don't see is the wide open receivers like we saw in the game yesterday night

20 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Lol you're being really weird about this. Great QBs have to take risks. It was a complaint about Rodgers, he wouldn't throw a lot of INTs but then he would get to the playoffs and would play too conservative and the Packers would lose. Great for his stat sheet, not so great for beating elite teams. It's a tricky needle to thread. You don't want to be Jameis Winston but you don't want to be Tyrod Taylor either. As I've said a few times I think Allen has crossed the line between aggressive and reckless a tad too often this year, especially against bad opponents where an ugly win would get it done. I would still rather have 40 TDs with 15 INTs than say 30 TDs with 8 INTs though. Turnover differential is a fun stat but points on the board are actually what win games.

I agree... The Bills win the games against Jets and Broncos if Allen had taken what was given at the end of the game

[BananaB]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

This has really never been more true. Folks out here acting like the 12th ranked defense by DVOA and the 4th ranked OL by PFF is Josh Allen dragging the the 0-16 Lions to the playoffs. 
 

If you truly think the Bills are absolutely awful and their defense sucks and their weapons suck and their OL sucks and their coach sucks, and are only a competitive football by the grace of Joshua Patrick Allen, I guess I understand why it’s so fervently argued he’s the MVP.

 

I think that’s a mostly emotional argument.

After the Phins game the defense had a big stretch of games where they  were basically rated the last in the league. It was during that stretch they gave up 4 4th quarter leads in the last 2 minutes. I know the O never looked good either but they stepped up to the plate when games were on the line. Big part of that was Josh Allen. 
 

No sense acting like they have played like a 12th ranked defense for 16 weeks, everyone who watched the Bills knows that ain’t the case. 

[Patrick Duffy]

31 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I agree... The Bills win the games against Jets and Broncos if Allen had taken what was given at the end of the game

 

Yeah but the other side of it is if Bills win vs Broncos then Dorsey stays longer and good chance of missing post season all together

[GunnerBill]

37 minutes ago, BananaB said:

After the Phins game the defense had a big stretch of games where they  were basically rated the last in the league. It was during that stretch they gave up 4 4th quarter leads in the last 2 minutes. I know the O never looked good either but they stepped up to the plate when games were on the line. Big part of that was Josh Allen. 
 

No sense acting like they have played like a 12th ranked defense for 16 weeks, everyone who watched the Bills knows that ain’t the case. 

 

The New England game was totally on defense. The other games in that spell honestly there was plenty of blame to go around.

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

You smokin something if you rather have Davis than Flowers.  Flowers is a well rounded receiver.  Davis is a one trick pony with unreliable hands. Allen is also a danger to run and while different than Lamar, just as dangerous. So much so that Chargers used a double spy on Allen to keep him contained. Our WR's are stuck to like glue.

 

For your other post, yeah I would take Cook over Mixon all day.  However their trio as a whole is way better than our trio as a whole.  I would think it was closer if Diggs was having a year like in years past but he isn't.  He isn't getting good separation and he is dropping a lot of balls this year that he shouldn't.  I love Diggs but he is having a down year... and I mean that from a skill perspective, not a stat one.

Are you just making up arguments in your head now? Where did I say I’d rather have Davis over Flowers? I said I’d rather have Davis over washed up OBJ. But I’d rather have Diggs over Flowers.

 

dont get so emotional about this to just make up things. It’s a bad look. 

[Saxum]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree. Lamar has had a good year. He had played well on a good team. There has been some development in his decision making as they have asked him to more full field reads which tbh I had always been a bit sceptical on him doing. But he has 19 passing touchdowns in 15. That isn't MVP territory.

 

As one GM said he would make a better RB.