2023 MVP: Lamar will win it with 15 fewer TDs than Josh Allen (end of season talk pg 75+)

[dakrider]

If the Bills had beaten the Broncos, and then beat the Eagles, and Josh had just a couple less interceptions, Josh would be the MVP frontrunner.
Those were 2 big games a lot of people watched and thats what it takes, winning those big TV games.

[Ya Digg?]

17 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

I pretty much disagree completely. Also almost all of the “arm punts” this year have given his receiver a chance and they have come up with none of them. One the DB yanked the ball right out of Diggs’ hands.

 

I see WR on other teams make athletic catches down the field every week and ours can’t even do it once.

Ok I can see that, so just to play devils advocate again-if Josh has a couple of these types of interceptions, then I’m guessing so do most of the other top QBs, it’s probably somewhat of a wash in the end. If they don’t, then it stands to reason Josh could lower his as well 

[The Jokeman]

5 hours ago, Ray Stonada said:

Sherman somehow keeps his composure. Keyshawn and Skip are serious knuckleheads. Moronic takes from both. 

Skip didn't even acknowledge that Sherman was making a case for Allen and Keyshawn had no response. I agree both of them looked bad.

[CincyBillsFan]

12 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

Skip didn't even acknowledge that Sherman was making a case for Allen and Keyshawn had no response. I agree both of them looked bad.

I had a slightly different take:  Skippy kept his mouth shut because he knew Sherman was 100% right.  Bayless may come across as a shrill Cowboy homer but he does know football enough to understand that Sherman was making a lot of sense.

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

So the part I have an issue with is the idea that an “arm punt” is no big deal or should be looked at differently. I would rather have a leg punt than an arm punt. An interception of any kind can flip momentum. As Miami showed against the Jets, an interception on a Hail Mary can also prove to be costly. Josh does have a lot of interceptions, no matter the reason, but he has also put up an incredible amount of offense and touchdowns. Hopefully that part carries over to the final 2 games, the Bills win both and the voters make their decision then (as opposed to with 2 weeks to go which it sounds like some already have)

But there is a hierarchy to how bad an INT is based on were on the field and under what circumstances it occurs.

 

*  Pick 6's are the worst kind of INT and Allen doesn't have one this season.

 

*  Red zone INT's (both in the opponents and in the Bills red zone) are very bad and Allen doesn't have one of those either.

 

*  3rd down INT's thrown from your side of the 50 that end up on the opponents side of the 50 (arm punt) are not that bad.

 

Also such things as average place on the field the INT occurs can define how bad the INT was.

 

So far Allen's INT's, while more numerous then one would like, haven't been awful in their outcomes.

 

 

[ToGoGo]

The INTs wouldn’t be such a big deal if it was a different QB. 
 

It’s only a big deal because it’s Allen, and he brings out weird vibes from people. 

[transplantbillsfan]

7 hours ago, ToGoGo said:

There’s good discussion here but in general the public perception is:

 

”Allen for MVP? Hahahahaha. They’re going to miss the playoffs because of his turnovers!!!”  
 

That’s the level of discourse and thought we’re dealing with. 

 

Are you sure that's still the public perception?

[BigDingus]

8 hours ago, ToGoGo said:

There’s good discussion here but in general the public perception is:

 

”Allen for MVP? Hahahahaha. They’re going to miss the playoffs because of his turnovers!!!”  
 

That’s the level of discourse and thought we’re dealing with. 

 

53 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Are you sure that's still the public perception?

 

Yeah, that's basically still the perception. Not the missing the playoffs part, but using turnovers (and the team's record) against Allen is pretty much what I see in the comments under any video discussing the topic. 

 

I just screen grabbed a handful of comments under some YT videos discussing MVP, and the best you'll get is a Bills fan suggesting Allen should win, followed by a bunch of responses mocking his turnovers.

 

 

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, BigDingus said:

 

 

Yeah, that's basically still the perception. Not the missing the playoffs part, but using turnovers (and the team's record) against Allen is pretty much what I see in the comments under any video discussing the topic. 

 

I just screen grabbed a handful of comments under some YT videos discussing MVP, and the best you'll get is a Bills fan suggesting Allen should win, followed by a bunch of responses mocking his turnovers.

 

 

 

 

 

While I appreciate the effort, are we really trying to use a screenshot of YouTube comments as proof of public perception?

 

For that matter, if you went out and found every comment responding to an "Allen is MVP" post, do you really think they would confirm anything one way or another?

 

If you would answer "yes" to either of the previous questions, make sure you hop in and ask all those people to send you the news every day 'cause ya just don't trust it and need it from trustworthy sources who'll shoot ya straight like all those anonymous commenters on YouTube and Twitter....

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, dakrider said:

If the Bills had beaten the Broncos, and then beat the Eagles, and Josh had just a couple less interceptions, Josh would be the MVP frontrunner.
Those were 2 big games a lot of people watched and thats what it takes, winning those big TV games.

 

If Josh never throws the INT against the Eagles that shifted momenutm the Bills win that game and Josh is the front runner. I am not saying he was the reason we lost. He wasn't. But when we talk about the interceptions we talk about them in the abstract. Whereas that one had a specific impact in the W-L column. 

[Scott7975]

On 12/27/2023 at 5:04 PM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Seems like it’s Lamar’s unless he craps out vs Miami. I just don’t feel like he’s had an MVP type season. 
 

 

 

Because he hasn't. MVP QBs are usually the 1 or 2 seed AND statistically leading or at least in the top few.  Lamar isn't close to the top in much of anything 

[BananaB]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Because he hasn't. MVP QBs are usually the 1 or 2 seed AND statistically leading or at least in the top few.  Lamar isn't close to the top in much of anything 

Seed should have nothing to do with MVP. Maybe if you got two guys that are close you can take it into consideration. You shouldn’t  prop a guy up there who is statistically average because the team has a good record. That’s exactly what’s going on with Lamar. 

[ToGoGo]

8 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Are you sure that's still the public perception?

Unfortunately yes. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BananaB said:

Seed should have nothing to do with MVP. Maybe if you got two guys that are close you can take it into consideration. You shouldn’t  prop a guy up there who is statistically average because the team has a good record. That’s exactly what’s going on with Lamar. 

 

Agree. Lamar has had a good year. He had played well on a good team. There has been some development in his decision making as they have asked him to more full field reads which tbh I had always been a bit sceptical on him doing. But he has 19 passing touchdowns in 15. That isn't MVP territory.

[C.Biscuit97]

Pretty sure the mvp is Joe Flacco!!! Though he needs to cut down on the ints!

 

that said, and I know it’s a separate award but the whole Browns coaching staff deserves it and is the most impressive thing I’ve seen all season. Losing the best rb in the nfl in game one. Their insanely paid qb out for the year. A couple starting o linemen. Cooper doesn’t play. It doesn’t matter. Can’t say enough how impressed I am with Cleveland which is something I’d thought I’d never say. 

[ToGoGo]

6 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

While I appreciate the effort, are we really trying to use a screenshot of YouTube comments as proof of public perception?

 

For that matter, if you went out and found every comment responding to an "Allen is MVP" post, do you really think they would confirm anything one way or another?

 

If you would answer "yes" to either of the previous questions, make sure you hop in and ask all those people to send you the news every day 'cause ya just don't trust it and need it from trustworthy sources who'll shoot ya straight like all those anonymous commenters on YouTube and Twitter....

Look I know you’re a big Allen guy, and you see the truth about him and the nonsense narratives. 
 

And BigDingus, I would usually never agree with him on anything, but YouTube or Reddit comments are a good insight into the mind of the average fan. 
 

If you really want to understand their views, gloss over the comments in the Sherman/Keyshawn video. Despite the video being about Allen, the majority of the comments only wanted to talk about Lamar or Purdy. And whenever Allen was mentioned his turnovers and record were brought up and laughed out of the room. 
 

I want to make clear that you are right about Allen. He deserves MVP. But this is what we are up against. You can deny it and ignore it, but it is what it is. We’re living in bizarro world. 

[HappyDays]

If Allen's actual turnovers marked his turnover rate, he would have about 8 INTs on the season. 40 TDs (likely more if a few more drives were extended by lack of turnover) and 8 INTs... We all agree that would be an MVP season, yes? So really the only reason he's not the obvious front runner is because of pure luck.

[finn]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

If Allen's actual turnovers marked his turnover rate, he would have about 8 INTs on the season. 40 TDs (likely more if a few more drives were extended by lack of turnover) and 8 INTs... We all agree that would be an MVP season, yes? So really the only reason he's not the obvious front runner is because of pure luck.

Luck and losses, to be precise. To the extent that Allen has momentum for MVP now, it's largely due that the Bills' winning streak. Recency bias is powerful among fans and the media. That said, the opening-day loss to the Jets was almost entirely on Allen, and it's fair to hold that performance against him. 

 

As many posters have said, Allen is the slam-dunk MVP if you look at the facts objectively. He's done more with less than any other player in the league, by a wide margin. The turnover narrative is flat-out bias. Comparing Allen and Lamar, in what world do five more turnovers outweigh SIXTEEN more TDs?

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

14 hours ago, DapperCam said:

I pretty much disagree completely. Also almost all of the “arm punts” this year have given his receiver a chance and they have come up with none of them. One the DB yanked the ball right out of Diggs’ hands.

 

I see WR on other teams make athletic catches down the field every week and ours can’t even do it once.

That arm punt that the jets intercepted on the 5 yard line or so was better than 99% of our leg punts lol also your receiver has no chance to catch a leg punt which is the reason why it is thrown to begin with 

[Warcodered]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree. Lamar has had a good year. He had played well on a good team. There has been some development in his decision making as they have asked him to more full field reads which tbh I had always been a bit sceptical on him doing. But he has 19 passing touchdowns in 15. That isn't MVP territory.

Get put in a weird position when saying that Lamar shouldn't be MVP, get accused of just hating on Lamar, and it's like no he's having a good season he's doing fine this year, he's just not having an MVP season.