2023 MVP: Lamar will win it with 15 fewer TDs than Josh Allen (end of season talk pg 75+)

[DCOrange]

15 hours ago, BeastMaster said:

What's also funny is that nobody was pushing for LJ as MVP until lastnighta game.

 

Purdy implodes, and now LJ vaults into frontrunner for MVP? Again, he had a fine game, but this wasn't him delivering a signature performance to beat Purdy and the Niners...Purdy ***** the bed, and SF never got their offense going. Most of the credit here should go to the Ravens defense, with LJ complimenting it and taking advantage of the numerous times he was given great field position.

 

It's just strange that the guy that nobody was talking about because his numbers weren't there suddenly is the favorite because of this one game where the defense was clearly the catalyst and Jackson himself just played his part. 

 

I really don't understand how this game suddenly vaults him to the top. If you wanna say we should start taking him as a serious MVP candidate now, I'm OK with that.

 

Bottom line is that Josh should be right there with anyone, but needs to win out with at least 500 more pass yards and at least 5 more TD's to legitimately win

He was literally #2 in betting odds going into the week. Purdy was a heavy favorite, but going into the week, Vegas had it as Purdy, Lamar, Dak, Allen, and CMC in that order. He was #3 the week prior as well.

Edited December 27, 2023 by DCOrange

[mjt328]

15 hours ago, BeastMaster said:

What's also funny is that nobody was pushing for LJ as MVP until lastnighta game.

 

Purdy implodes, and now LJ vaults into frontrunner for MVP? Again, he had a fine game, but this wasn't him delivering a signature performance to beat Purdy and the Niners...Purdy ***** the bed, and SF never got their offense going. Most of the credit here should go to the Ravens defense, with LJ complimenting it and taking advantage of the numerous times he was given great field position.

 

It's just strange that the guy that nobody was talking about because his numbers weren't there suddenly is the favorite because of this one game where the defense was clearly the catalyst and Jackson himself just played his part. 

 

I really don't understand how this game suddenly vaults him to the top. If you wanna say we should start taking him as a serious MVP candidate now, I'm OK with that.

 

Bottom line is that Josh should be right there with anyone, but needs to win out with at least 500 more pass yards and at least 5 more TD's to legitimately win

 

The truth is, all of the top MVP candidates have flaws against them this season.  That's why the favorite keeps swinging after one good/bad game.  Just two weeks ago, the emerging favorite was Dak Prescott.  After the Bills ran over Dallas, it suddenly switched to Brock Purdy.  He throws four picks on Christmas, and now Lamar Jackson is the favorite.

 

Much of the MVP voting is about feelings and narrative.  Especially in a year where nobody is really standing out.  That's why it's really going to come down to the last 2 weeks of the season.

 

The present case against Josh Allen is pretty simple.  Turnovers and team record.  He started the season with that horrible 3 turnover game against the Jets, and has only reinforced the narrative by making at least one dumb pick in almost every game this season.  Not to mention his primetime performances have been mostly good/solid, but nothing outstanding to get people talking.  Meanwhile, the Bills are only now digging themselves out of the hole they have created in the Win/Loss standings. 

 

For Allen to win the MVP, he will really need to stand-out from the pack in Weeks 17-18.  Two huge statistical games (especially in the final primetime game against the Dolphins).  The Bills will need to win both, finish a top the AFC East and end up with the #2 seed.

 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I like this point but I think we definitely win 7/8 with Care because that’s who he is. Hes the definition of average and we have a good supporting cast around Allen, even if the number 2 spot could be upgraded. 
 

but we aren’t SB contenders with him. 

 

Carr's #1 WR (Olave) has more yards per game, more yards per target, and a higher PFF grades than Diggs this year. In the last 5 games Olave has 95.6 YPG to Diggs 40.4 YPG. Carr would likely see his production decrease in this offense and we would have maybe 5 wins on the season so far. My guess is we would finish 6-11 with him at QB.

 

Allen's supporting cast has been even worse than advertised, especially over the past month. Maybe 1 or 2 other QBs would have led us to a win over the Chargers. And that was one of Allen's lesser games on the season.

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, Nineforty said:

Maybe a silly thing to do, but when I remove all numbers from the equation (i know they are integral to the debate), take two giant steps back and think about the season to-date, I don't think Josh Allen has had an MVP season. 

 

To me it's a year in that someone like CMC or Tyreek Hill should win it. Their teams look very differently when they are not on the field. 

So Josh has put this team ahead in the final 2 minutes 4 times this year in games the Bills lost, if the D held up would you believe he’s a MVP if our record was 15 and 2 right now? 
 

In close games and ugly games wins are decided at the end. If the O puts you up and the D can’t make a stop a lot of blame gotta go to the D. If the D makes a stop and the O can’t get the points it’s on them. Despite the mistakes Josh has been pretty ***** clutch all season in these situations but they all get overlooked because the D couldn’t get the job done.  

Edited December 27, 2023 by BananaB

[Warcodered]

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

 

The truth is, all of the top MVP candidates have flaws against them this season.  That's why the favorite keeps swinging after one good/bad game.  Just two weeks ago, the emerging favorite was Dak Prescott.  After the Bills ran over Dallas, it suddenly switched to Brock Purdy.  He throws four picks on Christmas, and now Lamar Jackson is the favorite.

 

Much of the MVP voting is about feelings and narrative.  Especially in a year where nobody is really standing out.  That's why it's really going to come down to the last 2 weeks of the season.

 

The present case against Josh Allen is pretty simple.  Turnovers and team record.  He started the season with that horrible 3 turnover game against the Jets, and has only reinforced the narrative by making at least one dumb pick in almost every game this season.  Not to mention his primetime performances have been mostly good/solid, but nothing outstanding to get people talking.  Meanwhile, the Bills are only now digging themselves out of the hole they have created in the Win/Loss standings. 

 

For Allen to win the MVP, he will really need to stand-out from the pack in Weeks 17-18.  Two huge statistical games (especially in the final primetime game against the Dolphins).  The Bills will need to win both, finish a top the AFC East and end up with the #2 seed.

 

It's definitely possible Lamar has the headlines right now from the 49ers game but he really wasn't all that great in it, maybe he keeps them facing the Dolphins we sure as hell want a Ravens win and he got this treatment even with just 2 TDs himself. But last week of the season it works out he's probably not doing anything while Josh could be playing in prime time for the AFC East and the #2 seed he might get the last say in the regular season.

[LarryMadman]

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

 

The present case against Josh Allen is pretty simple.  Turnovers and team record.  He started the season with that horrible 3 turnover game against the Jets, and has only reinforced the narrative by making at least one dumb pick in almost every game this season. 

 

I guess others shouldn't be considered either or maybe they just have smarter turnovers than Josh. Dumb argument as they all basically have the same amout of turnovers. I could understand if Josh had 35 turnovers and everyone else had 15, not the case though.

 

Tua 10 ints / 13 fumbles / 4 fumbles lost 

Brock 11 ints / 6 fumbles / 2 fumbles lost

Dak 7 ints / 3 fumbles / 2 fumbles lost

Josh 15 ints / 4 fumbles / 3 fumbles lost

Hurts 13 ints / 9 fumbles / 5 fumbles lost

Lamar 7 ints / 11 fumbles / 7 fumbles lost

 

This narrative that Josh turns the ball over too much compared to everyone else is bunk as is team record Tua, Hurts and Brock all have 11 wins, Lamar has 12, Dak has 10 and Josh has 9, they will all be in the playoffs. It's not like Josh only has 4 wins this year, I could understand that if it were true but its not. 

 

Josh is the best player in the league, does the most for his team, stats and percentages bear this out and his team would suffer the most without him, if that doesn't warrant the MVP, nothing does and the NFL and award are a joke. 

 

[Nineforty]

29 minutes ago, BananaB said:

So Josh has put this team ahead in the final 2 minutes 4 times this year in games the Bills lost, if the D held up would you believe he’s a MVP if our record was 15 and 2 right now? 
 

In close games and ugly games wins are decided at the end. If the O puts you up and the D can’t make a stop a lot of blame gotta go to the D. If the D makes a stop and the O can’t get the points it’s on them. Despite the mistakes Josh has been pretty ***** clutch all season in these situations but they all get overlooked because the D couldn’t get the job done.  

 

 

There's been too many games where I felt the defense actually did their part over the course of 4 quarters and the offense sputtered. I just don't think it's an MVP season by Josh. I still think he can win us a Super Bowl this year and yes, without him we would not be sniffing the playoffs. 

 

I also would wager Josh wins a couple of MVP's before its all said and done. Just not this year unless narrative season gets extra crazy. If you were to ask me who I'd promote, McCaffrey has my vote*  

 

 

*subject to change

[Warcodered]

 

 

[BananaB]

53 minutes ago, Nineforty said:

 

 

There's been too many games where I felt the defense actually did their part over the course of 4 quarters and the offense sputtered. I just don't think it's an MVP season by Josh. I still think he can win us a Super Bowl this year and yes, without him we would not be sniffing the playoffs. 

 

I also would wager Josh wins a couple of MVP's before its all said and done. Just not this year unless narrative season gets extra crazy. If you were to ask me who I'd promote, McCaffrey has my vote*  

 

 

*subject to change

Doesn’t matter, when the game is on the line you’re expected to make a play and Josh has done that. The expectations of Josh playing perfect football for 60 minutes week to week every game is ridiculous. 
 

He is the only MVP candidate I know that’s OC got fired mid season. A few weeks ago everybody and their dog were calling for the coaches head. In all my years watching football I can’t remember a top player in his situation and still be in MVP race. 
 

Another thing I want to point out because I can’t stand the excuses for Lamar and why his stats are so ***** average. I read a lot people saying get him some WRs like every other top QB, they drafted 3 WRs in the first round since he’s been the starter ffs.

Edited December 27, 2023 by BananaB

[DuckyBoys]

if Purdy and CMC were in the discussion not sure how either can be  I'd say its between Tyreek and Allen 

[Nineforty]

11 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Doesn’t matter, when the game is on the line you’re expected to make a play and Josh has done that. The expectations of Josh playing perfect football for 60 minutes week to week every game is ridiculous. 

not disagreeing with those thoughts.  All I was trying to say was he shouldn't be an MVP favorite. 

[MikePJ76]

I'm so sick of hearing about the mvp race.

 

I don't even care at the moment and I bet Allen does not either.  Let Lamar win it, it means nothing when the playoffs start.

 

 

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, MikePJ76 said:

I'm so sick of hearing about the mvp race.

 

I don't even care at the moment and I bet Allen does not either.  Let Lamar win it, it means nothing when the playoffs start.

 

 

You don't have to read this thread, you don't have to listen to the sports media talking about it, this is a self inflicted problem.

[SoonerBillsFan]

3 hours ago, Nineforty said:

Maybe a silly thing to do, but when I remove all numbers from the equation (i know they are integral to the debate), take two giant steps back and think about the season to-date, I don't think Josh Allen has had an MVP season. 

 

To me it's a year in that someone like CMC or Tyreek Hill should win it. Their teams look very differently when they are not on the field. 

Imagine Allen not on the field.  This is a 3 win team tops.

 

Allen = MVP

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

It's definitely possible Lamar has the headlines right now from the 49ers game but he really wasn't all that great in it, maybe he keeps them facing the Dolphins we sure as hell want a Ravens win and he got this treatment even with just 2 TDs himself. But last week of the season it works out he's probably not doing anything while Josh could be playing in prime time for the AFC East and the #2 seed he might get the last say in the regular season.

 

The Ravens are going to want to win that game for the 1 seed, but also because they lost to Miami the last two times.  They will want their revenge.  Especially after the lead they blew against Miami last year.

[MikePJ76]

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

You don't have to read this thread, you don't have to listen to the sports media talking about it, this is a self inflicted problem.

100%.  

 

Unfortunately on Twitter I clicked on a few of the pro allen tweets and anti allen tweets and now I keep getting force fed a million of them.  

 

but yea you are 1 million percent right.  

 

I still hate the amount of time dedicated to this though, like who cares what someone named nick wright or marcus spears thinks etc.  

 

I would love lamar to win it and then play like he always does in the playoffs and lose, hopefully to Buffalo in the AFC Championship

[Warcodered]

47 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

The Ravens are going to want to win that game for the 1 seed, but also because they lost to Miami the last two times.  They will want their revenge.  Especially after the lead they blew against Miami last year.

Well that doesn't inspire confidence.

[HappyDays]

Keeping in mind that literally every single one of his interceptable passes has been caught by the defender, he still has less value lost to negative plays than any other QB in the NFL. He also has the best EPA per play against top 12 defenses.

 

MVP for sure if the award actually meant what its name implies.

[UKBillFan]

3 hours ago, BananaB said:

Doesn’t matter, when the game is on the line you’re expected to make a play and Josh has done that. The expectations of Josh playing perfect football for 60 minutes week to week every game is ridiculous. 
 

He is the only MVP candidate I know that’s OC got fired mid season. A few weeks ago everybody and their dog were calling for the coaches head. In all my years watching football I can’t remember a top player in his situation and still be in MVP race. 
 

Another thing I want to point out because I can’t stand the excuses for Lamar and why his stats are so ***** average. I read a lot people saying get him some WRs like every other top QB, they drafted 3 WRs in the first round since he’s been the starter ffs.

 

I'm not sure that is a positive when looking for the MVP.

[ganesh]

6 hours ago, Nineforty said:

Maybe a silly thing to do, but when I remove all numbers from the equation (i know they are integral to the debate), take two giant steps back and think about the season to-date, I don't think Josh Allen has had an MVP season. 

 

To me it's a year in that someone like CMC or Tyreek Hill should win it. Their teams look very differently when they are not on the field. 

I shudder to even think about what this team will look like if Allen is NOT on the field.  Go Bills !!!