2023 MVP: Lamar will win it with 15 fewer TDs than Josh Allen (end of season talk pg 75+)

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

12 hours ago, RiotAct said:

they’re bound to have a down year.  At some point. Maybe.

It definitely goes unheralded because mahomes overshadows all but that defense always comes up with huge plays in the playoffs too.  Tough to beat when you’re at home in the playoffs and you’ve got that game changing potential on both sides 

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I think this title is misleading because Josh Allen is Not Crushing the MVP race right now.. I think there are some things he did well last game but crushing the MVP race? misleading. 

 

As far as yesterday goes, he's crushing it.

 

What else did he need to do?  I think yesterday might have been his best game of the year.

[LABILLBACKER]

6 hours ago, Franco_92 said:

I'm starting to get upset at Josh's interceptions. Not because he is throwing them, but because there are only like 4 legitimate picks in the stack of 8. 2 wonky deflections and 2 3rd and 20 arm punts that should have been caught or knocked down by Diggs and Davis. 8 is a big number for 8 games and it should be 4 or 5 with any luck on his part. 

So true...that int last night was so avoidable. I think if he can get his usual 45 total tds and limit his INT's to 15-16, he's got a shot at the mvp.  He's almost #1 in qbr.

[No_Matter_What]

17 hours ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

Josh can knock Tampa Bay off his list now.

 

who’s left- Arizona and Philly?  Indy regular season?

Yep. Eagles and Cards plus Colts in regular season.

 

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/229899-teams-bills-have-beaten-with-josh-allen-as-qb-thread-29-after-bucs-eagles-and-cards-left-to-go

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

So true...that int last night was so avoidable. I think if he can get his usual 45 total tds and limit his INT's to 15-16, he's got a shot at the mvp.  He's almost #1 in qbr.

Gonna be tough for mahomes not to get it going against the broncos and chargers defenses 4 times

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

And that is the issue with Allen...while everyone always is willing to acknowledge him as a major MVP candidate, he also is someone the media and everyone seem to hold to a higher standard of near perfection or they tear him down.  He is grossly outplaying Burrow right now and yet Burrow doesn't get nearly the same criticism to the level Allen does for example.  

 

 

 

This is so true with regard to Allen. One of Allen's biggest criticisms from the media is that he is not consistent enough game to game. They want him to basically play every game with a 3:0 TD/INT ratio and 340+ total yards. 

 

If the standard from the media is that Allen needs to be more consistent, it's simply an unrealistic expectation. If he was more consistent, he would be better than Mahomes. And Mahomes is viewed by most in the media as an immortal in the football world. Rightfully so. But to set Allen's standard at that level while not having the same standard for any of the other QB's rather silly. Allen is nowhere near consistent game to game but yet at the end of the day or end of the season, for the last three seasons and possibly going on 4th season now, there might be one QB with better numbers than him and one QB with more wins then his team. 

[PrimeTime101]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

As far as yesterday goes, he's crushing it.

 

What else did he need to do?  I think yesterday might have been his best game of the year.

yea i was mixing the 2 statements together.

 

And I agree. He crushed it. Just to bad our OC sucks.

[FireChans]

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I know this thread is dedicated to the MVP race, but the reality of the situation is Josh Allen isn't really in it right now.  Technically he is, but not really.  With embarrassing losses to both Zack Wilson and Mac Jones, and a near loss where we only scored 14 points against a 1 win Giants team starting a QB who hasn't played meaningful football in years is going to leave a long bad taste in the mouths of the voters.  Add in now the narrative even after this win is that we only won because Godwin didn't see the hail mary (and there is some truth to that) and you have got a team that is 2-2 in the last 4 during the easiest part of its schedule, and both wins a case can be made more that the other team lost it more than we won it and we got lucky.  Whether or not that is true or fair doesn't matter, that is the narrative.

 

So right now, Allen and the Bills are probably going to have to win out or lose no more than 1 more game and definitely at least win the division for Allen to have any real consideration.  He will have to do a lot more than Mahomes to overcome him, who is the definitive leader for MVP right now.  

 

And that is the issue with Allen...while everyone always is willing to acknowledge him as a major MVP candidate, he also is someone the media and everyone seem to hold to a higher standard of near perfection or they tear him down.  He is grossly outplaying Burrow right now and yet Burrow doesn't get nearly the same criticism to the level Allen does for example.  

 

It will be tough for Allen to win an MVP unless he really definitively beats everyone else out because he is not going to get the votes in a close race.  And the thing working in Josh's favor to help him do that is also working against him and this team...and that is the toughness of our remaining schedule which is rough and the defensive injuries.  Given the difficulty of the remaining games and the added difficulty with our defensive injuries, if Allen and Bills run the table or lose maybe just 1 close game and still win the division, then that could help propel Josh back into legit consideration.  But that won't be easy as we have seen against lesser competition already.

Burrow has been very visibly hurt. Not too many media members are gonna crush a dude for his poor performance when he looks like he can barely play.

[78thealltimegreat]

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I know this thread is dedicated to the MVP race, but the reality of the situation is Josh Allen isn't really in it right now.  Technically he is, but not really.  With embarrassing losses to both Zack Wilson and Mac Jones, and a near loss where we only scored 14 points against a 1 win Giants team starting a QB who hasn't played meaningful football in years is going to leave a long bad taste in the mouths of the voters.  Add in now the narrative even after this win is that we only won because Godwin didn't see the hail mary (and there is some truth to that) and you have got a team that is 2-2 in the last 4 during the easiest part of its schedule, and both wins a case can be made more that the other team lost it more than we won it and we got lucky.  Whether or not that is true or fair doesn't matter, that is the narrative.

 

So right now, Allen and the Bills are probably going to have to win out or lose no more than 1 more game and definitely at least win the division for Allen to have any real consideration.  He will have to do a lot more than Mahomes to overcome him, who is the definitive leader for MVP right now.  

 

And that is the issue with Allen...while everyone always is willing to acknowledge him as a major MVP candidate, he also is someone the media and everyone seem to hold to a higher standard of near perfection or they tear him down.  He is grossly outplaying Burrow right now and yet Burrow doesn't get nearly the same criticism to the level Allen does for example.  

 

It will be tough for Allen to win an MVP unless he really definitively beats everyone else out because he is not going to get the votes in a close race.  And the thing working in Josh's favor to help him do that is also working against him and this team...and that is the toughness of our remaining schedule which is rough and the defensive injuries.  Given the difficulty of the remaining games and the added difficulty with our defensive injuries, if Allen and Bills run the table or lose maybe just 1 close game and still win the division, then that could help propel Josh back into legit consideration.  But that won't be easy as we have seen against lesser competition already.

Check his stats compared to Jalen Hurts it’s unbelievable the way the media treats the guy. Nick Wright dedicates entire segments to trashing the guy. People soon forget the guy he was playing against was the the number pick overall when he was drafted. 
I stated earlier it’s going to be impossible for him to win an MVP in a city like Buffalo with how unpredictable the weather is after Halloween alone much less other factors like his coach having the balls of a church mouse. 

[cisco2403]

27 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Burrow has been very visibly hurt. Not too many media members are gonna crush a dude for his poor performance when he looks like he can barely play.

This is interesting considering Allen had a UCL injury to his throwing arm for  half the season last year and got no pass from anyone. Even many Bills fans gave him no slack for it. 
 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Burrow has been very visibly hurt. Not too many media members are gonna crush a dude for his poor performance when he looks like he can barely play.

Yet they did it to Allen last year when he had a hurt throwing elbow.   Allen does and has always taken more harsher criticism than other QBs.  With Allen it feels more like a game of proving he is good or not good rather than fair evaluation on his play.  Allen is basically being asked to prove them wrong every week where other guys can have down or bad weeks and no one bats an eye about it.  It’s just an “off” game or other excuses applied.  With Allen it’s more “see we told you he sucks” type coverage.  

Edited October 28, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[FireChans]

58 minutes ago, cisco2403 said:

This is interesting considering Allen had a UCL injury to his throwing arm for  half the season last year and got no pass from anyone. Even many Bills fans gave him no slack for it. 
 

 

15 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Yet they did it to Allen last year when he had a hurt throwing elbow.   Allen does and has always taken more harsher criticism than other QBs.  With Allen it feels more like a game of proving he is good or not good rather than fair evaluation on his play.  Allen is basically being asked to prove them wrong every week where other guys can have down or bad weeks and no one bats an eye about it.  It’s just an “off” game or other excuses applied.  With Allen it’s more “see we told you he sucks” type coverage.  

Allen’s injury was much less visible. That’s why I said the word “visible.”

 

Allen’s injury manifested itself in a few passes that looked off. Not being unable to move in the pocket or scramble.

 

I will also point out that no one is putting Burrow in the MVP race (rightfully so)

Edited October 28, 2023 by FireChans

[EmotionallyUnstable]

I think the losses that @Alphadawg7 referenced matter a lot less if Allen comes out and has big games against teams such as the Eagles, Jets, Chiefs, Bengals, etc, 

He’s been right in the running the whole way, and the INTs and losses look bad…..wins though, with stats like he has now, in November and December, would 100% erase any bad taste that might sour an Allen MVP,

 

Days like last night will get it done. 

 

[Warcodered]

21 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I think the losses that @Alphadawg7 referenced matter a lot less if Allen comes out and has big games against teams such as the Eagles, Jets, Chiefs, Bengals, etc, 

He’s been right in the running the whole way, and the INTs and losses look bad…..wins though, with stats like he has now, in November and December, would 100% erase any bad taste that might sour an Allen MVP,

 

Days like last night will get it done. 

 

You're probably right, at the moment the whole field has been chaotic enough that Josh definitely still has a chance to make a run.

[transplantbillsfan]

11 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I know this thread is dedicated to the MVP race, but the reality of the situation is Josh Allen isn't really in it right now.  Technically he is, but not really.  With embarrassing losses to both Zack Wilson and Mac Jones, and a near loss where we only scored 14 points against a 1 win Giants team starting a QB who hasn't played meaningful football in years is going to leave a long bad taste in the mouths of the voters.  Add in now the narrative even after this win is that we only won because Godwin didn't see the hail mary (and there is some truth to that) and you have got a team that is 2-2 in the last 4 during the easiest part of its schedule, and both wins a case can be made more that the other team lost it more than we won it and we got lucky.  Whether or not that is true or fair doesn't matter, that is the narrative.

 

So right now, Allen and the Bills are probably going to have to win out or lose no more than 1 more game and definitely at least win the division for Allen to have any real consideration.  He will have to do a lot more than Mahomes to overcome him, who is the definitive leader for MVP right now.  

 

And that is the issue with Allen...while everyone always is willing to acknowledge him as a major MVP candidate, he also is someone the media and everyone seem to hold to a higher standard of near perfection or they tear him down.  He is grossly outplaying Burrow right now and yet Burrow doesn't get nearly the same criticism to the level Allen does for example.  

 

It will be tough for Allen to win an MVP unless he really definitively beats everyone else out because he is not going to get the votes in a close race.  And the thing working in Josh's favor to help him do that is also working against him and this team...and that is the toughness of our remaining schedule which is rough and the defensive injuries.  Given the difficulty of the remaining games and the added difficulty with our defensive injuries, if Allen and Bills run the table or lose maybe just 1 close game and still win the division, then that could help propel Josh back into legit consideration.  But that won't be easy as we have seen against lesser competition already.

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

Allen is in perfect position right now. Other than that Jets game he's been pretty good to really good.

 

Now in the next 9 games he has games against Burrow, Tagovailoa, Mahomes and Hurts.

 

If Allen outduels 3 or 4 of those guys in those games and the Bills win 3 or 4 and don't lose more than 1 other, he's set himself up so he'd be hard to not to vote for.

 

That's a lot of ifs... but honestly all the other candidates have those ifs, too. Right now Mahomes has 7 fewer TDs, 3 fewer turnovers and just over 100 fewer total yards. Seems like Allen is way ahead in the most important stat (other than #QBwins) and really isn't that much worse in the other ones.

 

So what are we going on here? An assumption Mahomes will win it because the Chiefs will light up the 2nd half of the season? Have we been watching the Chiefs?

6 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Gonna be tough for mahomes not to get it going against the broncos and chargers defenses 4 times

 

He already played both twice. And actually he often seriously struggles against the Broncos.

[LABILLBACKER]

6 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Gonna be tough for mahomes not to get it going against the broncos and chargers defenses 4 times

Weakest division in football. 

[Buffalo Junction]

12 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I know this thread is dedicated to the MVP race, but the reality of the situation is Josh Allen isn't really in it right now.  Technically he is, but not really.  With embarrassing losses to both Zack Wilson and Mac Jones, and a near loss where we only scored 14 points against a 1 win Giants team starting a QB who hasn't played meaningful football in years is going to leave a long bad taste in the mouths of the voters.  Add in now the narrative even after this win is that we only won because Godwin didn't see the hail mary (and there is some truth to that) and you have got a team that is 2-2 in the last 4 during the easiest part of its schedule, and both wins a case can be made more that the other team lost it more than we won it and we got lucky.  Whether or not that is true or fair doesn't matter, that is the narrative.

 

So right now, Allen and the Bills are probably going to have to win out or lose no more than 1 more game and definitely at least win the division for Allen to have any real consideration.  He will have to do a lot more than Mahomes to overcome him, who is the definitive leader for MVP right now.  

 

And that is the issue with Allen...while everyone always is willing to acknowledge him as a major MVP candidate, he also is someone the media and everyone seem to hold to a higher standard of near perfection or they tear him down.  He is grossly outplaying Burrow right now and yet Burrow doesn't get nearly the same criticism to the level Allen does for example.  

 

It will be tough for Allen to win an MVP unless he really definitively beats everyone else out because he is not going to get the votes in a close race.  And the thing working in Josh's favor to help him do that is also working against him and this team...and that is the toughness of our remaining schedule which is rough and the defensive injuries.  Given the difficulty of the remaining games and the added difficulty with our defensive injuries, if Allen and Bills run the table or lose maybe just 1 close game and still win the division, then that could help propel Josh back into legit consideration.  But that won't be easy as we have seen against lesser competition already.

He’s probably going to have to win a Super Bowl before he wins an MVP…. Pre-draft narrative, Buffalo narrative, inconsistency narrative, etc. It’s a fair amount to overcome. They’ve painted him down, and unfortunately for his MVP chances a bunch of those “journalists” clinging on to those aforementioned narratives have votes. 

[julian]

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

Burrow has been very visibly hurt. Not too many media members are gonna crush a dude for his poor performance when he looks like he can barely play.

Burrow gets a pass when he’s bad while playing injured and Allen not only doesn’t get credit for playing great last 2 seasons while injured, the media rarely acknowledges he’s playing hurt.

 

 Crazy stuff.

Edited October 28, 2023 by julian

[Alphadawg7]

4 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I think the losses that @Alphadawg7 referenced matter a lot less if Allen comes out and has big games against teams such as the Eagles, Jets, Chiefs, Bengals, etc, 

He’s been right in the running the whole way, and the INTs and losses look bad…..wins though, with stats like he has now, in November and December, would 100% erase any bad taste that might sour an Allen MVP,

 

Days like last night will get it done. 

 

I don’t disagree with that, not saying he can’t win it, saying he has to do more to win it to overcome Mahomes because of the narrative.  Which is why I said if we tear through the schedule he could still win it, but it will take that for him to have a legit shot to win it.  He won’t win it if we don’t win our division, not over Mahomes. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

Allen is in perfect position right now. Other than that Jets game he's been pretty good to really good.

 

Now in the next 9 games he has games against Burrow, Tagovailoa, Mahomes and Hurts.

 

If Allen outduels 3 or 4 of those guys in those games and the Bills win 3 or 4 and don't lose more than 1 other, he's set himself up so he'd be hard to not to vote for.

 

That's a lot of ifs... but honestly all the other candidates have those ifs, too. Right now Mahomes has 7 fewer TDs, 3 fewer turnovers and just over 100 fewer total yards. Seems like Allen is way ahead in the most important stat (other than #QBwins) and really isn't that much worse in the other ones.

 

So what are we going on here? An assumption Mahomes will win it because the Chiefs will light up the 2nd half of the season? Have we been watching the Chiefs?

 

He already played both twice. And actually he often seriously struggles against the Broncos.

All good on the disagree, but I don’t think we actually do disagree.  I was saying he won’t have a shot unless we tear through this tough schedule.  I’m saying today, he really has no shot of the vote because of the narrative, not because he isn’t deserving.  
 

Bills and Allen are going to have to win the division and come out and win these tough games against Mahomes, Hurts, Tua, etc for him to have a legit shot at getting the votes.  
 

Most important games are going to be Mahomes and Burrow because they have been the last two teams to knock Bills and Allen out of playoffs, so those are the ones where he can really start to shift the narrative on himself.