2023 MVP: Lamar will win it with 15 fewer TDs than Josh Allen (end of season talk pg 75+)

[Warcodered]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

 

MVP is an award for most passing stats and either 1 or 2 seed.  Show me all the winners where they weren't either the 1 or 2 seed and top few in most passing stats.  

 

Allen has 9 more turnovers than Lamar, not 15.  Lamar has 13 turnovers.  Josh has 22.  About a half turnover over per game difference.  Lets be real about this.  Not all turnovers credited are the fault of the QB either.  I can't speak for Lamar but Allen has ints that are just unlucky. A batted ball that gets picked is just unlucky. A ball that hits the receiver in the hands or is stripped away from the receiver is just unlucky or on the receiver. A prayer as the half expires is meaningless.  Allen has a lot of ints but Lamar has a lot of fumbles.  Lamar has a lot more that he was lucky to not lose too which is... just lucky.

 

I am not trying to make a case for Allen to be MVP.  He isn't going to get it.  I'm just saying that the above is true. Lamar had an oooo ahhh game against Miami in a year that no QB is really deserving and became the media hype and thats why he is going to get it.  Josh regularly has those games against Miami including one this year.

 

I just realized it's 8 less turnovers I forgot to count the safety earlier that conveniently doesn't show up on the stat sheet. His team had another safety off a punt when they couldn't move the ball out from their own goal line against the Steelers too.

[miketysonslisp]

Why worry about the MVP so much? To preface- I think the bills with JA is a better team than Lamar on the bills, and also that the ravens with JA would be a better team than Lamar on the Ravens- so yes- JA is who I'd take as a QB over Lamar on either team if I was building a team from scratch.

 

Having said that JA didn't perform this year and doesn't deserve it and that's OK. In fact Allen won't get 1 vote and there's no grand conspiracy. Lamar plays in the AFC North- the best division in football by far and this year at a historical rate. The first time in 90 years all the teams over 500. He gets to see Myles Garret, TJ Watt, Hendrickson week in week out. He beat cincy with and without Burrow. He also this year went on to beat a raging hot Rams team, a hot Detroit team, an "unbeatable" (2 mvp candidate) 9ers team, and then another 2 mvp Miami team that was at the time contending for the #1 seed. With what weapons by the way? A OBJr with one leg, a rookie 5'9" wr? Both starting rbs hurt? his TE1 hurt? He is their whole offense without having stars like Ceedee lamb, Hill, CMC, A Brown, Diggs etc. He accounts for their rushing and passing and controlling the games so impactfully that they were able to beat high quality teams in the best division in football. It's why he will be MVP (with a good shot at unanimous again). Stats tell a small portion of the larger story. And his stats are fine by the way with less than complimentary pieces that other guys in the convo have at their disposal. It's just moreso that he was the best player on the best team in what is historically one of the best divisions in the NFL EVER. He absolutely deserves it. It's okay to appreciate Lamar's year even if we think JA is a better QB.

 

 

 

Edited January 9 by miketysonslisp

[Airseven]

33 minutes ago, miketysonslisp said:

Why worry about the MVP so much?

 

It's neat to craft arguments in a year without a consensus or standout and especially when other skill positions are viable candidates. Realistically, Allen is in the MVP conversation only among Bills fans.  

[HereComesTheReignAgain]

I feel this way about the TD vs turnover debate.  Every TD counts for 6 points.  Not every turnover provides the opposition with 6 points.  TDs are a much more important stat than turnovers.  

[Warcodered]

11 minutes ago, HereComesTheReignAgain said:

I feel this way about the TD vs turnover debate.  Every TD counts for 6 points.  Not every turnover provides the opposition with 6 points.  TDs are a much more important stat than turnovers.  

Yeah, hell Allen's second turnover against the Dolphins was actually more of a positive than a negative, that's ridiculously unlikely but. 🤷‍♂️

Edited January 9 by Warcodered

[transplantbillsfan]

23 hours ago, VW82 said:

I still can't get over the fact that so many of you thought Allen was good yesterday. Beyond his four turnovers, one of his "good" plays was a fluky throw off a helmet that happened to fall into the back of the endzone for a TD. 

 

I hate that I'm now coming off as a hater because I'm not. I love Allen, but this thread is making me crazy and questioning some posters grasp on reality. Every week it's the same thing. We excuse every Allen mistake. It's someone else's fault every time. Gabe ran the wrong way (even though he ran into wide open space in the endzone). Wilkens just made a great play so it's not Josh's fault he fumbled.. Throwing an INT on 4th down was the "right" decision. Throwing it into play with the clock winding to zero was just giving us a chance and not sacrificing points. Give me a break. 

 

Josh is a top 5ish player in the league. He has the talent to be the best player. But we fall over ourselves making excuses for him at every turn and it's maddening. 

 

I dunno man. There's a middle ground here.

 

You understand that Allen set another "no one's ever done this!" record on Sunday night, right???

 

As it is, I was intrigued by Joe Marino's All-22 analysis that I think you should listen to. He begins it by pretty seriously criticizing Josh for his 2 interceptions and then his end of half play.

 

Then he goes in an interesting direction I didn't expect. Watch it and remember this is a guy who's actually making a living watching film, scouting players and talking about it.

 

[transplantbillsfan]

23 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

No one will be happier than me if he has an MVP season. He just has to have a better year for that to happen. 2020 or 2021 Allen might have been good enough to win it this year.

I'm just hoping he can take that 4th quarter magic and string it together on a run for the next 4 games. All will definitely be forgotten then.

 

2021 Allen???? Dude... did you actually watch the Bills in 2021???

 

Oh... and I call your bluff... I think it would really get under your skin if Allen wins MVP.

[DapperCam]

I think ultimately Allen will finish with a lot of 2nd place votes, and possibly finish 2nd in MVP voting. Not that it matters much.

[Punch]

He's definitely not winning it but the case for him being included in the discussion is apparent. All the disassociated high minded posters on this board arguing disproportionately against even the discussion of Allen's candidacy are ridiculous.

 

There's far too much credence paid to what amounts to overly conservative offense, MVP voters and analysts, as a whole, don't credit high risk playmaking as they once did. Allen attempts a lot of high risk plays because he's capable of making them, and he does so more often that not. We all watched as Tua needed to make game breaking throws the entire 2nd half on Sunday Night and he simply can't make them. Mike McDaniel acknowledged as much during the postgame on the ill fated throw to Claypool that was intercepted. It was a pathetic attempt.

 

He's often compared to Brett Favre and John Elway, and the comparison is appropriate. Patrick Mahomes and Matthew Stafford are capable of making many of the types of throws Allen can but they can't run like Allen and they both have high level offensive strategists and talent surrounding them--- or in the case of Mahomes, he has historically had that talent around him, but not this year.

 

Josh Allen isn't going to win 2023 MVP, but for god's sakes, he's one of the greatest football players to ever play the game and you're wasting your life trying to complain on the godamned internet with other fans of the team. Enjoy it while it lasts, soon enough we'll be right back to Kelly Holcomb. But maybe that's what some of you want, he's efficient and doesn't turn the ball over. Nor does he win games, score TDs or entertain.

[LeGOATski]

If I had the choice of any QB in the history of the league in their prime to run my team, I'm choosing Josh Allen.

 

He is the personification of football.

[BigDingus]

12 hours ago, Airseven said:

 

Realistically, Allen is in the MVP conversation only among Bills fans.  

 

Exactly. It's been this way for a while, though Allen was starting to be mentioned in some peoples' top 5 candidates after the Cowboys & KC games. But for some reason, people want to pretend the turnover narrative doesn't linger hard, especially among other fanbases.

 

I've noticed a lot that there's been way more anti-Allen backlash the last 1/4 of the season too. Any time you see a segment with an analyst or athlete talk positively about him, half the responses are insulting Allen's turnovers & awareness, or comparing him to their own QBs they feel don't get as much credit as Josh.

 

I just read a comment under Cowherd's video praising Allen after the fins game, saying something like "I'm sure if Dak had 8 more TDs but 12 more turnovers, the media would grease him up like they do Allen!" and it had nearly 1,000 likes. People can roll their eyes all they want, but that's not an outlier, that's the reality outside of Bills fans now.

Edited January 10 by BigDingus

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

14 hours ago, HereComesTheReignAgain said:

I feel this way about the TD vs turnover debate.  Every TD counts for 6 points.  Not every turnover provides the opposition with 6 points.  TDs are a much more important stat than turnovers.  

I can’t remember any josh turnovers on our side of the field at all lol. It’s honestly pretty wild.  A lot of guys with less turnovers have put their team in much worse shape than Josh has 

[GunnerBill]

16 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

If you put a backup QB on each team for a full season, then I believe the Ravens still win more games than the Bills.

 

FWIW the Ravens are 3-8 without Lamar the past 3 years compared to 28-12 with him. Hard to know what the Bills would be without Allen because he always plays. But in 2021 Baltimore were in the #1 seed spot when Lamar got hurt and missed the playoffs. Last year they were the #2 seed when he got hurt and ended up as a wildcard who was 1 and done. 

 

Lamar is pretty critical to the Ravens results. I am not sure there would be much difference between them without him and the Bills without Josh tbh...

22 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I can’t remember any josh turnovers on our side of the field at all lol. It’s honestly pretty wild.  A lot of guys with less turnovers have put their team in much worse shape than Josh has 

 

I can. Jets. Eagles. Chargers. And that is just from the top of my head.

[Billy Claude]

28 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

FWIW the Ravens are 3-8 without Lamar the past 3 years compared to 28-12 with him. Hard to know what the Bills would be without Allen because he always plays. But in 2021 Baltimore were in the #1 seed spot when Lamar got hurt and missed the playoffs. Last year they were the #2 seed when he got hurt and ended up as a wildcard who was 1 and done. 

 

Lamar is pretty critical to the Ravens results. I am not sure there would be much difference between them without him and the Bills without Josh tbh...

 

I can. Jets. Eagles. Chargers. And that is just from the top of my head.

 

 

People's ability to only remember things that confirms their believes is always amazing to me.  In this case, the believe that Allen's turnovers don't actually hurt the Bills chances of winning. Even more amazing is the contortions people go thru to convince themselves that someone else is to  blame for every interception that he throws.

 

 

Edited January 10 by Billy Claude

[JoPoy88]

55 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I can’t remember any josh turnovers on our side of the field at all lol. It’s honestly pretty wild.  A lot of guys with less turnovers have put their team in much worse shape than Josh has 

guess that’s just bad memory then. Because there are several. 

[JoPoy88]

39 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

FWIW the Ravens are 3-8 without Lamar the past 3 years compared to 28-12 with him. Hard to know what the Bills would be without Allen because he always plays. But in 2021 Baltimore were in the #1 seed spot when Lamar got hurt and missed the playoffs. Last year they were the #2 seed when he got hurt and ended up as a wildcard who was 1 and done. 

 

Lamar is pretty critical to the Ravens results. I am not sure there would be much difference between them without him and the Bills without Josh tbh...

 

I can. Jets. Eagles. Chargers. And that is just from the top of my head.

these are fans of the player not fans of the team @GunnerBill 

 

they infest this place and you have to constantly point them out. Doing god’s work.

[Scott7975]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

FWIW the Ravens are 3-8 without Lamar the past 3 years compared to 28-12 with him. Hard to know what the Bills would be without Allen because he always plays. But in 2021 Baltimore were in the #1 seed spot when Lamar got hurt and missed the playoffs. Last year they were the #2 seed when he got hurt and ended up as a wildcard who was 1 and done. 

 

Lamar is pretty critical to the Ravens results. I am not sure there would be much difference between them without him and the Bills without Josh tbh...

 

I can. Jets. Eagles. Chargers. And that is just from the top of my head.

 

Thats a fair point.  I'm not making a claim that the Ravens aren't better with Lamar as opposed to a backup.  Obviously they are.  Those losses don't mean all that much to me because sometimes its about who you play and when you play them.  Their ppg wasn't all that different IIRC because I looked it up at the time.  Lamar has also only won 1 playoff game and their backup was a fumble 6 at the goal line from winning the playoff game IIRC too.  Miami was the 2 seed almost all year and flirting with the 1 seed.  They ended as the 6th seed wildcard and will likely be 1 and done again too.  Anything can happen.  I still believe the Ravens team wins more games than the Bills team with backup QBs in a full season.

Edited January 10 by Scott7975

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Thats a fair point.  I'm not making a claim that the Ravens aren't better with Lamar as opposed to a backup.  Obviously they are.  Those losses don't mean all that much to me because sometimes its about who you play and when you play them.  Their ppg wasn't all that different IIRC because I looked it up at the time.  Lamar has also only won 1 playoff game and their backup was a fumble 6 at the goal line from winning the playoff game IIRC too.  Miami was the 2 seed almost all year and flirting with the 1 seed.  They ended as the 6th seed wildcard and will likely be 1 and done again too.  Anything can happen.  I still believe the Ravens team wins more games than the Bills team with backup QBs in a full season.

 

With their own backups I agree. Because Huntley >>> Kyle Allen. But if you give them the same non-specific backup QB.... I dunno if you put Gardner Minschew on the Bills and Gardner Minschew on the Ravens I don't think there would be much difference. Might be a game either way.

[Mr. WEO]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

FWIW the Ravens are 3-8 without Lamar the past 3 years compared to 28-12 with him. Hard to know what the Bills would be without Allen because he always plays. But in 2021 Baltimore were in the #1 seed spot when Lamar got hurt and missed the playoffs. Last year they were the #2 seed when he got hurt and ended up as a wildcard who was 1 and done. 

 

Lamar is pretty critical to the Ravens results. I am not sure there would be much difference between them without him and the Bills without Josh tbh...

 

I can. Jets. Eagles. Chargers. And that is just from the top of my head.

 

 

Ravens are 1-3 in the playoffs with Lamar.  900 yards, 55% completion, 3 TD and 5 INT, 5 fumbles.  His last game was 3 years ago. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 1/8/2024 at 2:06 PM, VW82 said:

Now we're claiming Josh didn't even have a bad game vs. Phins?? He had four turnovers including the one on downs to end the first half that robbed us of three points. We won because the defense generated two turnovers and shut out the Phins in the second half, and because Harty ran a punt return back 97 yards. 

 

I just don't understand why we need to distort the truth like this week after week. It's okay to admit Josh was all over the place this season, good and bad. You can't just look at TDs and nothing else with no context. 

 

Forget NFL MVP, the Bills defense was the MVP of the team this year.

That stop at the goal line was incredible and would’ve been a TD 80% of the time. James Cook also dropped a surefire TD pass as well. He didn’t play as bad as people think. Just not on par with his usual games against Miami at home.