The Bills biggest problem on offense remains unchanged

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

But weren’t we expecting him to be a dumpster fire?

Being a poor pass protecting and solid run blocking RT is better than being a dumpster fire.   That doesn’t mean he should be our starting RT next season.  
 

If he improves his pass protection and is adequate in pass protection and doesn’t need constant help, then sure, bring him back. My statement about trading him revolves around him staying as he is now.  

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Being a poor pass protecting and solid run blocking RT is better than being a dumpster fire.   That doesn’t mean he should be our starting RT next season.  
 

If he improves his pass protection and is adequate in pass protection and doesn’t need constant help, then sure, bring him back. My statement about trading him revolves around him staying as he is now.  

That’s fair enough

[NewEra]

59 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

John, he is this year's target.  Not much you can say to remove the target from his back.  He is not the best RT in the league, but not the worst either.  Good run blocker but given his size can be susceptible to getting off balance at times in pass protection.  Horrors.

He’s the target.

 

this is a message board where we discuss the good and the bad. If brown wasn’t terrible last season, he wouldn’t be “targeting him”, aka observing how bad he was and discussing it.  But he was terrible and that earned him the crosshairs. What you call a target, most would call the hot seat.  He needs to shape up or ship out…..just like every other player that sucks.  
 

He’s playing a little better this year, but he hasn’t been good.  And if he wasn’t helped as much as he’s been helped, I don’t think we’d be talking much about him being improved.  The chips are taking all the pressure off

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He’s the target.

 

this is a message board where we discuss the good and the bad. If brown wasn’t terrible last season, he wouldn’t be “targeting him”, aka observing how bad he was and discussing it.  But he was terrible and that earned him the crosshairs. What you call a target, most would call the hot seat.  He needs to shape up or ship out…..just like every other player that sucks.  
 

He’s playing a little better this year, but he hasn’t been good.  And if he wasn’t helped as much as he’s been helped, I don’t think we’d be talking much about him being improved.  The chips are taking all the pressure off

Target.  Hot seat.  Whatever.  There is a strange predilection around here to focus negativity on a given player.  Right now it’s Brown.  And no he does not, in your word, suck.  He is good in the run game and needs to continue to improve in pass protection. If Brown shows marked improvement then the target will simply shift to another guy.  One would have thought that it would be Bernard since.so much negativity in the off-season was about not having a MLB but surprise! - when he actually played he was pretty good.  This is why I try to just watch the games and not let confirmation bias affect my view of how a given guy plays.

 

Ironically enough there is only one guy on the roster who has played one truly sucky game, and that was Josh week one.

Edited September 27, 2023 by oldmanfan

[LABILLBACKER]

12 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

Also, I think most are concerned long term or for the season with regards to Brown. Not just one game the Bills winnin Wash. 

 

Weaknesses have a way of being exposed. It's pretty clear Brown isn't a strength of the Oline. Almost seems like it's a matter of time before he severely hampers the Bills chances to win. 

 

I going to perhaps throw out a different way to look at the situation. The Bills coaches know Brown is subpar. They came up with various schemes to help him out. Thus far, it's been really effective. I think you have to give the Bills coaches credit here. Sure it creates some issues in the pass game as noted. However, Allen has had some decent time to throw the ball. That's paramount and priority number one. 

 

Going into the season with Brown as your starting tackle is a whole nother animal to discuss. 

 

Thank you....weaknesses have a nack to fester as the season progresses.  It's not sustainable to expect all these different offensive weapons (TE's/RB's) helping carry Spencer at the expense of their own production. Yes the remainder of our OL has held up against 2 weaker teams. But this comical idea of selecting "punching bags" every year is getting tired & old.  Fans are simply identifying an important area on the team that can get improved. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by LABILLBACKER

[SoCal Deek]

The premise here is that the Bills offense is being ‘handicapped’ by needing to help out Brown in pass protection. So…I went to the NFL league-wide receiving stats to see if this would show up. It doesn’t. The Bills have more receivers in the Top 100 than most if not all of the other contenders. For example, the Chiefs don’t have a single receiver in the Top 50. Kincaid has as many receptions as Kelce, who is their top target. Even with the Dolphins hanging 70 points last week, they only have Hill in the Top 50. Once again, it’s easy to be critical of our Bills, but the other 31 teams are far from perfection across the entirety of their rosters.

[Fan in Chicago]

8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

The premise here is that the Bills offense is being ‘handicapped’ by needing to help out Brown in pass protection. So…I went to the NFL league-wide receiving stats to see if this would show up. It doesn’t. The Bills have more receivers in the Top 100 than most if not all of the other contenders. 

Thanks for that info.

But it doesn't negate the OP's points - if we had to spend one less receiving asset to help Brown in pass pro, the O would be even more dynamic and diverse that it already is. While the last two weeks have been more than adequate to blowout the teams, we will struggle against teams built like the Jets D or if we run into a high scoring team with a great pass rush. Undoubtedly, there will be at least one such team in the playoffs

Edited September 27, 2023 by Fan in Chicago

[The Frankish Reich]

13 hours ago, Simon said:

 

The suggestion that he's shown improvement is not in any way a "fact".

Yeah, PFF and all that, but ... PFF's grades are basically:

- 2021: Replacement level 

- 2022: Horrible (dealing with injuries)

- 2023 so far: Replacement level

Which kind of fits with my eyeball test.

Edited September 27, 2023 by The Frankish Reich

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Thanks for that info.

But it doesn't negate the OP's points - if we had to spend one less receiving asset to help Brown in pass pro, the O would be even more dynamic and diverse that it already is. While the last two weeks have been more than adequate to blowout the teams, we will struggle against teams built like the Jets D or if we run into a high scoring team with a great pass rush. Undoubtedly, there will be at least one such team in the playoffs

Thanks but I’m honestly not sure what people want here anymore. The Bills are not a perfect team. And….neither is anyone else. Will we ‘struggle’ against really good opponents? Yes, I’m sure we will. That’s to be expected. (I’m just hoping we don’t do one of our typical mid-season swoons against a bad opponent.)

[NewEra]

13 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Target.  Hot seat.  Whatever.  There is a strange predilection around here to focus negativity on a given player.  Right now it’s Brown.  And no he does not, in your word, suck.  He is good in the run game and needs to continue to improve in pass protection. If Brown shows marked improvement then the target will simply shift to another guy.  One would have thought that it would be Bernard since.so much negativity in the off-season was about not having a MLB but surprise! - when he actually played he was pretty good.  This is why I try to just watch the games and not let confirmation bias affect my view of how a given guy plays.

 

Ironically enough there is only one guy on the roster who has played one truly sucky game, and that was Josh week one.

You find it strange for Bills fans to talk negatively about our weakest starter?  A starter that was terrible last season.  A starter that has played poorly in pass protection again this year. 
 

 

As I’ve also pointed out, yes, he’s been solid as a run blocker.   Spencer brown was so bad in pass protection last season, that he could’ve improved 100% and could still be graded as terrible in pass protection.  

 

He has this season to earn an opportunity to compete for the job again next season.  And he’s lucky to have that based on his play last year. 
 

I don’t know about you, but I’m trying to win a Super Bowl here. I don’t want crappy players blocking for 17.  I don’t want any crappy players starting for our team at any position.  
 

targeting….. LOL.  Making observations and discussing them.  Some players become a “target” when the observations point to a player sucking. Super Bowl window is open…. get gud or begone. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

But if one actually watches the games thus far and focus in on him he is doing OK.  Like any guy in the league he got beat a couple times.  

 

You tell me, what should we be looking for in terms of performance?  No pressures or sacks given up?  There's a name for tackles like that:  HOFers.

 

 

Come on.  He ranked in bottom 5-6 RT in pressure rate allowed in 2022.

 

The guy is a weak link on the O-line.  It's OK to point that out.

 

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Come on.  He ranked in bottom 5-6 RT in pressure rate allowed in 2022.

 

The guy is a weak link on the O-line.  It's OK to point that out.

 

 

Yea. The improvement is that he now stands out as such. Last year we had three guys out there who had no business as NFL starters (and bear in mind Brown wasn't even good in the run game in 2022, he was as a rookie and has been decent run blocking so far this year... in 2022 he was bad at everything). 

[SoonerBillsFan]

13 hours ago, Simon said:

It continues to be the same problem that has been plaguing them for three years, and that problem is Spencer Brown.

I give them credit for the solid job they have done hiding him so far, but the fact that they continue to have to go out of their way to protect him every week is absolutely handicapping what should be a much more efficient offense. When you have to commit skill players to blocking roles that often, it's like they're playing 10 on 11 out there.

If you wonder why Kincaid and Knox aren't having big impacts check and see how long it takes them to actually get into their routes when they have to spend extra time protecting Spencer Brown before they can leave the LOS.

If you wonder where Damien Harris and Latavius Murray are, look how often they are being asked to cover Spencer Brown. Hell, the Bills are actually using Murray on the LOS just to engage DE's while Brown is still getting set up in pass pro.

 

I really like Spencer Brown and am glad he is on the roster. You tell him to bury the guy in front of him on a 34 dive, and that's what he'll usually do. But he simply does not have the feet to be a complete OT in the modern NFL and is never going to. The necessity for the Bills to take skill players and put them on their heels to protect Brown instead of using them to attack defenses is making it impossible for them to maximize their offensive talent. And as long as they insist on putting a Tackle out there who can't play Tackle in this league, it's going to continue to be a problem all year.

I'm not a GM and have no idea what the in-season solution could be, or if there is even one available. The time to address the issue was the offseason and they didn't do enough solve the problem. I'm not saying it is going to sink their season down the road, but it is certainly going to make things much harder then they needed to be on offense for the rest of this year.

I think for this year the staff is going to Die on the Spencer Brown Hill.  You heard Beane make every excuse and defend him all offseason. I hate it, its the one major weak link that every team will come after, and it takes away weapons just like you said.

[oldmanfan]

43 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Thank you....weaknesses have a nack to fester as the season progresses.  It's not sustainable to expect all these different offensive weapons (TE's/RB's) helping carry Spencer at the expense of their own production. Yes the remainder of our OL has held up against 2 weaker teams. But this comical idea of selecting "punching bags" every year is getting tired & old.  Fans are simply identifying an important area on the team that can get improved. 

The Commanders with 4 first round picks on the D line were weak?

21 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Come on.  He ranked in bottom 5-6 RT in pressure rate allowed in 2022.

 

The guy is a weak link on the O-line.  It's OK to point that out.

 

That was last year.  This year is this year.  Out of the 5 guys yes, he's probably the least accomplished.  But no one will answer what reasonable expectations are for the guy.

Edited September 27, 2023 by oldmanfan

[JerseyBills]

In his defense he has played 2 elite DLs and an elite pass rusher in Crosby. He has held up pretty well given the circumstances.  Still have high hopes for him, we can't have great players at every position,  even though we have a ton

[Mr. WEO]

8 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

  My point is there seems to be an effort to single guys out even before the season starts.  

 

13 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

 

That was last year.  This year is this year. 

 

 

Hence, why he was singled out before the season starts.....

[PrimeTime101]

14 hours ago, Simon said:

It continues to be the same problem that has been plaguing them for three years, and that problem is Spencer Brown.

I give them credit for the solid job they have done hiding him so far, but the fact that they continue to have to go out of their way to protect him every week is absolutely handicapping what should be a much more efficient offense. When you have to commit skill players to blocking roles that often, it's like they're playing 10 on 11 out there.

If you wonder why Kincaid and Knox aren't having big impacts check and see how long it takes them to actually get into their routes when they have to spend extra time protecting Spencer Brown before they can leave the LOS.

If you wonder where Damien Harris and Latavius Murray are, look how often they are being asked to cover Spencer Brown. Hell, the Bills are actually using Murray on the LOS just to engage DE's while Brown is still getting set up in pass pro.

 

I really like Spencer Brown and am glad he is on the roster. You tell him to bury the guy in front of him on a 34 dive, and that's what he'll usually do. But he simply does not have the feet to be a complete OT in the modern NFL and is never going to. The necessity for the Bills to take skill players and put them on their heels to protect Brown instead of using them to attack defenses is making it impossible for them to maximize their offensive talent. And as long as they insist on putting a Tackle out there who can't play Tackle in this league, it's going to continue to be a problem all year.

I'm not a GM and have no idea what the in-season solution could be, or if there is even one available. The time to address the issue was the offseason and they didn't do enough solve the problem. I'm not saying it is going to sink their season down the road, but it is certainly going to make things much harder then they needed to be on offense for the rest of this year.

the first thing you have to ask yourself is, how many RT's in this league can handle some of the better DE's in tis league alone.. I would argue that number is around 10. McGovern's pff is actually worse than Brown right now. Do you actually wonder why Josh has to roll out right so often and the pressure that puts on a RT? Not knowing where the QB is behind you?

 

Then you have to ask, are they lining up wrong? Why not just put Knox next to Brown, Knox chips and takes a flat while Kincaid is where he should be in the slot, taking more routs up the middle? Why are they having Kincaid chipping when Kincaid should be the main rout runner?

 

I think some of our play design's stinks. You see Diggs catching a ball and another catcher 4 yards away.. Why? You have the whole field to use.. 

 

Then the next dude is going to be saying well.. We does any of this matter. We are one of the top scoring offenses in the league. The fact of it is.. when you reach the playoffs, your offense has to be running smooth. The good thing is we have time to fix it.. The bad thing is... I do not think Kincaid should be chipping on the line at all. Kincaid not being used right. 

 

 

Bottom line? Yea we do not have the brightest star in Brown, but finding great RT's is not easy. Personally? you want to blame why Kincaid more specifically why he is chipping at the line all the time? You should ask yourself Why IS Kincaid at the line so much.. if knox needs a break... throw another blocking TE out there... Let Kincaid do his thing and not be blocking witch by the way, was supposed to be his short coming .

Edited September 27, 2023 by PrimeTime101

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

 

Hence, why he was singled out before the season starts.....

And if you watch him this year, watch him without confirmation bias, he's not doing that bad.  He certainly has room to improve but he's not playing that bad.  But because, if you look at the rest of the roster there are no obvious candidates, Brown is targeted for the negativity.

2 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

the first thing you have to ask yourself is, how many RT's in this league can handle some of the better DE's in tis league alone.. I would argue that number is around 10. McGovern's pff is actually worse than Kincaid right now. Do you actually wonder why Josh has to roll out right so often and the pressure that puts on a RT? Not knowing where the QB is behind you?

 

Then you have to ask, are they lining up wrong? Why not just put Knox next to Brown, Knox chips and takes a flat while Kincaid is where he should be in the slot, taking more routs up the middle? Why are they having Kincaid chipping when Kincaid should be the main rout runner?

 

I think some of our play design's stinks. You see Diggs catching a ball and another catcher 4 yards away.. Why? You have the whole field to use.. 

 

Then the next dude is going to be saying well.. We does any of this matter. We are one of the top scoring offenses in the league. The fact of it is.. when you reach the playoffs, your offense has to be running smooth. The good thing is we have time to fix it.. The bad thing is... I do not think Kincaid should be chipping on the line at all. Kincaid not being used right. 

 

 

Bottom line? Yea we do not have the brightest star in Brown, but finding great RT's is not easy. Personally? you want to blame why Kincaid more specifically why he is chipping at the line all the time? You should ask yourself Why IS Kincaid at the line so much.. if knox needs a break... throw another blocking TE out there... Let Kincaid do his thing and not be blocking witch by the way, was supposed to be his short coming .

Interesting points

[Dunkirk Donski]

14 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Gabe Davis.

I couldnt agree more with this.  Josh needs another weapon he can trust and Gabe is NOT the answer

[Einstein's Dog]

5 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

In his defense he has played 2 elite DLs and an elite pass rusher in Crosby. He has held up pretty well given the circumstances.  Still have high hopes for him, we can't have great players at every position,  even though we have a ton

I agree.  The OLine and Spencer both seem improved.  Of course they could improve more.

 

Meanwhile our real "biggest problem on offense"  (WR2) does not seem to have been addressed or improved.  The inconsistency of G Davis is still there.   His lackadaisical route against the Jets cost us the game.  Another baffling drop against Wash.  I've seen enough, the trial is over.  Do what it takes to get a stud WR - M Evans or C Kupp.