Dan Orlovsky on the Bills Offense Yesterday

[HoofHearted]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:56 AM, Allen2Moulds said:

I think when it's 3rd or 4th and a foot, he needs to be under center. Defenses have to alot the proper resources to defend, which typically create great opportunities for both play action and bootlegs. When we go into shotgun, we completely eliminate it.

Why do you think shotgun eliminates play action and bootlegs?

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Why do you think shotgun eliminates play action and bootlegs?

I always thought shotgun play action was RPO

[McBean]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:59 AM, MAJBobby said:

 

I feel there are many here that have been screaming the same thing for the last couple years.  By not doing this you are also taking away a very underrated element of Josh's game.  He is a magician with the fakes.  there are many times I could have swore he handed the ball off to only see a 20 yard strike to someone down field.  

Imagine Josh playing under Shannahan or McDaniel.

[HoofHearted]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

I always thought shotgun play action was RPO

No, not every mesh is an RPO out of gun.

On 9/25/2023 at 9:12 AM, Einstein said:

Josh Allen with NO play-action:

61.7%, 99 TD, 51 INT, 86.9 QB rating. 6.7 YPA.

 

Josh Allen w/ play action:

68.6%, 53 TD, 13 INT, 117.5 QB rating. 9.1 YPA.

This trend should be true for most QBs.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

No, not every mesh is an RPO out of gun.

This trend should be true for most QBs.

Ty I legit did not know that 

[HoofHearted]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:55 AM, Shaw66 said:

I agree, and it's a good point, but my eye tells me there's a difference.  Play action from the shotgun is the simple fake handoff to the running back standing beside or behind the QB.  It's essentially a fake draw-play.   Kelly and Thurman ran it all the time, but that was at a time when defenses hadn't adjusted yet to that style.  Play action from under center is more threatening to the defense.  For one thing, the QB makes some affirmative movements in order to execute the fake, movements that look exactly like a running play, and depending on what's being faked, it could be any kind of running play - pulling linemen, draw, power, off tackle, stretch play.   It's hard to simulate all of that out of shotgun.   So, I think, the defense is forced to respond to the urgency of the play-fake coming from the QB at the line of scrimmage.  

 

The actual fake also tends to be much more effective from under center.   The play-fake on Josh's TD pass to Knox last week is an example.  Josh had his back to the line of scrimmage with the ball tucked way into his belly while his other hand executed the fake.  He and the running back passed so close to each other that it was really hard for the defense to see if he put the ball into the back's belly or kept it.   The result was that when he rolled left he was left with very few defenders in front of him.   You just can't fake like that out of the shotgun, because the ball always is in full view. 

 

And one other thing about playing under center.  If you have a tall QB, and the Bills do, the QB can stand up and make the quick throw to the receiver running a shall inside slant.   Or take a three-step drop and throw.   The benefit of doing that has to do with geometry.   If you're three yards behind the line scrimmage and throwing over the middle, fewer defensive linemen are in the line of sight of the QB than when you're six or seven yards behind the line.   (Draw a picture and you'll see.)  So being under center makes a few passing plays more effective. 

 

And two more things:  Josh has a bad tendency to escape backward, which allows the edge rushers to slip their blocks.  When Josh is dropping from under center, he naturally can't get as deep in the pocket, which will help him step up, rather than step back, when the rush comes.   And it also helps Josh run a quick hitting draw play - two-step drop and burst up the middle. 

 

I can see a lot of advantages to having him under center. 

 

 

You can do all of the bolded out of gun.

[C.Biscuit97]

I actually like DO but it was painful listening to him call Stafford’s fans last night. Dude loves him Matthew

[WideNine]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:53 AM, warrior9 said:

In some respects on a roll out, sure. 

 

But the threat of him running draws, reads, etc goes out the window.. It's not the fact that we want him to run, we want the defense to respect it. 

Spreading them out with him in the gun takes guys out of the box, will make them incorporate a spy more often, loosens coverage, etc. 

 

How does playing under center eliminate draw plays?

 

Folks also tend to gather at the extreme poles so they can yell at each other.

 

No one is saying eliminate shotgun and spread, but putting Allen under center more will improve play action, timing, less turnovers, efficiency - the numbers show that....

 

Especially this season since we are running less empty spread and more 12 personnel.

 

 

 

[warrior9]

Just now, WideNine said:

 

How does playing under center eliminate draw plays?

 

Folks also tend to gather at the extreme poles so they can yell at each other.

 

No one is saying eliminate shotgun and spread, but putting Allen under center more will improve play action, timing, less turnovers, efficiency - the numbers show that....

 

Especially this season since we are running less empty spread and more 12 personnel.

 

 

 

QB Draws? Because it's not 1970 and D-linemen run 4.4 40's. Taking a 5 step drop back to a draw will not work in today's NFL.. I challenge you to find the last time a team ran a DESIGNED QB draw from under center. 

 

No one is saying they should eliminate under center. I quite literally said, I can get on board with 35-40%. You also have to realize, the more we do it, the more film there is, the more preparation, and in result, the numbers will suffer. The reason it's successful right now is because of the amount of time we're under center. 

[Shaw66]

34 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

You can do all of the bolded out of gun.

Yeah, I guess that's true, and teams do run all those actions out of the shotgun.  Mostly what's different is the faking.  Out of the shotgun the QB facing the line of scrimmage and can't hide the ball nearly as well.   

 

Also, the stretch runs are different, and the faking is different under center.  When the QB runs left to fake the stretch run handoff and then rolls right, the QB's movement is a major part of the motion that misleads the defenders.   

 

 

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Yeah, I guess that's true, and teams do run all those actions out of the shotgun.  Mostly what's different is the faking.  Out of the shotgun the QB facing the line of scrimmage and can't hide the ball nearly as well.   

 

Also, the stretch runs are different, and the faking is different under center.  When the QB runs left to fake the stretch run handoff and then rolls right, the QB's movement is a major part of the motion that misleads the defenders.   

 

 

The mesh still holds the backers - it's the same concept.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:12 AM, Einstein said:

Josh Allen with NO play-action:

61.7%, 99 TD, 51 INT, 86.9 QB rating. 6.7 YPA.

 

Josh Allen w/ play action:

68.6%, 53 TD, 13 INT, 117.5 QB rating. 9.1 YPA.

I mean to be fair that's pretty much all QBs across the board. The play action pass is one of the most effective plays in the game so long as a defense even has to account for the run game. Not even going run heavy, but that they freeze for a second to think of the possibility 

[Don Otreply]

Weather you like Orlovsky or not, he is on point with this view of Buffalos offense.

[Scott7975]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:59 AM, MAJBobby said:

 

I feel there are many here that have been screaming the same thing for the last couple years.  By not doing this you are also taking away a very underrated element of Josh's game.  He is a magician with the fakes.  there are many times I could have swore he handed the ball off to only see a 20 yard strike to someone down field.  

 

Yup, the overuse of shotgun needs to go. Undercenter Josh is better.  Playaction Josh is better. Under center run game is better.  How is Dorsey the only one who doesn't see this.

[CincyBillsFan]

34 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

I mean to be fair that's pretty much all QBs across the board. The play action pass is one of the most effective plays in the game so long as a defense even has to account for the run game. Not even going run heavy, but that they freeze for a second to think of the possibility 

Good point and don't forget that included in the shotgun numbers are teams losing and desperately trying to get back in the game.  Play action doesn't work that well down by 10 in the 4th quarter.

 

 

[Einstein]

24 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

I mean to be fair that's pretty much all QBs across the board. 

Allen's numbers being better with play-action is not what is unique about what I posted. What is unique is the massive gap between Allen's non-play-action and play-action numbers. For example...

Allen's QB rating goes up 30 points with play-action.

 

Mahomes QB rating goes up only 8 points with play-action.

Tuas QB rating goes up 0 points with play-action.

Bradys QB rating goes up only 7 points with play-action.

Staffords QB rating goes up only 12 points with play-action.

Burrows QB rating goes up 0 points with play-action.

Watsons QB rating goes up 8 points with play-action.

Prescotts QB rating goes up 8 points with play-action.
Rodgers QB rating goes up only 13 points with play-action.

 

 

So yes, QB's typically fare better with play-action, but Allen is extremely unique with HOW MUCH better he is with play-action. A massive, whopping, 30 point difference.

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, warrior9 said:

QB Draws? Because it's not 1970 and D-linemen run 4.4 40's. Taking a 5 step drop back to a draw will not work in today's NFL.. I challenge you to find the last time a team ran a DESIGNED QB draw from under center. 

 

No one is saying they should eliminate under center. I quite literally said, I can get on board with 35-40%. You also have to realize, the more we do it, the more film there is, the more preparation, and in result, the numbers will suffer. The reason it's successful right now is because of the amount of time we're under center. 

 

When running play action from under center with an effective running game like we have against light boxes (because we face so much 2 deep shell zone looks) it causes defensive linemen to hesitate and be gap disciplined and slows the rush. 

 

I don't think the numbers show more effective pressures from speedy d-linemen when Allen takes those 3-5 step drops from under center.

 

 

 

 

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, warrior9 said:

QB Draws? Because it's not 1970 and D-linemen run 4.4 40's. Taking a 5 step drop back to a draw will not work in today's NFL.. I challenge you to find the last time a team ran a DESIGNED QB draw from under center. 

 

No one is saying they should eliminate under center. I quite literally said, I can get on board with 35-40%. You also have to realize, the more we do it, the more film there is, the more preparation, and in result, the numbers will suffer. The reason it's successful right now is because of the amount of time we're under center. 

Well, first, one of the objectives is to have Allen run less, so I'm not in a hurry to run QB draws.    

[warrior9]

42 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, first, one of the objectives is to have Allen run less, so I'm not in a hurry to run QB draws.    

That's not the point. The point is it takes that element and threat out of the game. You have to prepare for that. You don't need to spy as much (taking a guy out of coverage) when under center. You can't run play action 80% of the time. 

 

Like i said, i think somewhere in the 35-40% would be fine in a game where clock control is important. The mix Dorsey had last game was perfect. 

[Shaw66]

21 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

That's not the point. The point is it takes that element and threat out of the game. You have to prepare for that. You don't need to spy as much (taking a guy out of coverage) when under center. You can't run play action 80% of the time. 

 

Like i said, i think somewhere in the 35-40% would be fine in a game where clock control is important. The mix Dorsey had last game was perfect. 

Well, look.   I don't really know or even have an opinion about whether under center is better and what the right mix ought to be.  What I learned in this thread is that he's been much more effective when running play action, and I do believe that play action works better when you're under center, for reasons I've given:   Fakes are more effective because you can hide the ball. The QB is in motion to make handoffs or fake them, and when the QB is in motion there's another opportunity to confuse the defense with misdirection.  

 

But I don't really care.   All I want is for Allen to get his completion percentage consistently high, because I think that's what's needed to make the Bills really effective.  And for Allen to do that, he has to take the high percentage throws more often.   If he can do that better running play action, then great, run more play action.  If he can do that running plays out of the shotgun, works for me.   Just complete more passes. 

 

And I actually don't care if they take the threat of designed runs out of the offense.  Allen shouldn't be running many designed runs.  Where his running hurts teams is his scrambles.  He'll scramble out of any offense, doesn't matter if he's under center or in shotgun.  

 

Allen's physical skills that will make him an all-time great are his arm, number 1, his ability to escape the pocket and throw on the run, number 2, his ability to stay upright in the pocket and not got knocked down easily, number 3, and his ability to run for first downs off scrambles, number 4.  He is not going to win Super Bowls by being a running threat.  Newton didn't win any, Vick didn't win any, Lamar hasn't won any.  Quarterbacks win Super Bowls by being great throwers and field generals.  

Edited September 26, 2023 by Shaw66