Justin Herbert's record after 52 starts vs others (couple former Bills show up)

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

To your point that would Allen/Mahomes have won more, yes of course. But he isn’t Allen or Mahomes or Burrow. Those are the 3 best QBs in football.

 

And I agree with you...I think its unquestioned they are the top 3 right now...however, that is not always the narrative as much anymore specifically around Allen both in sports media and even here by some posters.  In fact, after the Bengals loss and Jets game, the narrative has been that not only is Burrow "now" the unquestioned 2nd best QB, that Allen may not even be 3rd with guys like Herbert, Lawerence, etc entering the convo for those detractors. 

 

In fact, a common narrative has been that Bills haven't gotten over the hump and reached the Super Bowl because of Allens turnovers in big moments, which would mean the playoffs, even though Allen has 20 TDs to just 4 Turnovers in his post season career.  That includes the last 2 playoff exits where he had 0 turnovers in the loss to KC and just 1 in the Cincy game last year that was on the last play of the game down 3 scores on a heave down field in bad weather...which had no bearing or impact on that game what so ever.  So the narrative of its Allens turnovers is completely false, yet the narrative persists.

 

Meanwhile, guys like Herbert who can't even make the playoffs and has a losing record and Burrow who is worse in almost every statistical metric in the postseason than Josh, including turnover rate, don't get the same ridicule and criticism as Josh.  I mean Josh has 8 playoff games, and Burrow has 7...Josh averages over 80 yards more per game, more than 1 TD more per game, and double his TD-TO ratio at 5 to 1 compared to Burrows 2.5 to 1.  Furthermore, Burrow only has 3 less INT's than Josh the past 2 regular seasons =, and only 2 less if you count the postseason.  Burrow isn't being questioned about his interceptions though even though he has had a superior cast of weapons, in fact, one of the best cast of weapons in the whole NFL.  

 

Yet these narratives and criticisms remain at a much harsher level for Josh than Herbert and Burrow have faced despite the fact that as a QB, Josh has accomplished much more than them on an individual level both in regular season and post season performances.  

[NoSaint]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

While I agree with most of what you are saying, your negative spin on his weapons is more reflective of THIS year than his previous years that make up the majority of his 52 starts.  Ekeler is a great RB, I watch a lot of him, he is a very good runner and receiver and doesn't get the credit he deserves IMHO as one of the better RB's overall in the NFL.  He does from the fantasy football community, but when people talk about the best backs in the league, he doesn't get as much recognition as he should IMHO.

 

And what you say about Allen is true THIS year...but Justin has been in the league since Allen was in his prime.  So, while you are not wrong on Allen right now, your assessment is not a reflection of the whole 52 games they have played together where Allen was arguably a top 10, definitely top 15, WR for a period Justins career.  And I have felt Mike Williams was grossly over paid from the moment he got that contract, but...he is no slouch either.  And they have other supporting players around these guys who have been solid too over the years.

 

Point is, there are a lot of QB's working with a lot less than Justin has been working with who have amassed better records than him and reached the playoffs across the NFL.  And while coaching has certainly been an issue, Herbert has also not been a guy who has gotten it done either when it mattered despite having enough talent on that team to do it.  

last year both Allen and Williams were hurt as well as Herbert himself. 
 

that made up a lot of his 50 game career 

 

 

[Tierlifer]

Herbert and the Chargers might be overrated but one thing that is not are their uniforms. 

[Alphadawg7]

To be clear, I am not dumping on Herbert to say he isn't a good QB...but it does irk me quite a bit when I see people listing Herbert ahead of Allen on who is the better QB like I saw after week 1 Jets game.  

 

But I really only started this thread more out of surprise to see that he didn't even have a winning record despite having enough talent around him that it feels like he should have.  Its one thing they haven't made the playoffs yet in a tough AFC conference, but just had not realized he didn't even have a winning record.

[PatsFanNH]

18 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Saw this stat earlier tonight about Justin Herberts record after 52 games.  And this is a guy making $262.5M and that since entering the NFL he has had a potent stable of weapons including Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Austin Ekeler, and more.

 

These are some of the QB's who have better records than him after 52 starts:

 

Mark Sanchez:  31-21

Andy Dalton:  31-21

Mitch Trubisky:  29-23

Carson Wentz:  28-24

Teddy Bridgewater:  28-24

Baker Mayfield:  27-25

Matt Cassel:  27-25

Tyrod Taylor:  26-25-1

______________________________

Justin Herbert:  25-27

 

I know that W/L records are not all on a QB...but that is a pretty pitiful record for a guy making $262.5M and playing with the kind of weapons he has had around him.  

 

Just sayin'

Maybe someday the Chargers will learn you still need a defense to win in this league. Also Herbert has great stats but I always consider that game a W for the Pats because BB owns him. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

18 hours ago, WMDman said:

I think he’s over rated but look at the coaches he’s had Anthony Lynn was awful and Staley might be worse

 

But Staley was the greatest thing since sliced bread when he was hired!

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, PatsFanNH said:

Maybe someday the Chargers will learn you still need a defense to win in this league. Also Herbert has great stats but I always consider that game a W for the Pats because BB owns him. 

 

Maybe tell that to the people around here every year who criticize Beane and McD for investing cap space or draft picks into the defensive side of the ball who all seem to think and say "defense doesn't matter" lol. 

 

 

 

 

[NoSaint]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

And I agree with you...I think its unquestioned they are the top 3 right now...however, that is not always the narrative as much anymore specifically around Allen both in sports media and even here by some posters.  In fact, after the Bengals loss and Jets game, the narrative has been that not only is Burrow "now" the unquestioned 2nd best QB, that Allen may not even be 3rd with guys like Herbert, Lawerence, etc entering the convo for those detractors. 

 

In fact, a common narrative has been that Bills haven't gotten over the hump and reached the Super Bowl because of Allens turnovers in big moments, which would mean the playoffs, even though Allen has 20 TDs to just 4 Turnovers in his post season career.  That includes the last 2 playoff exits where he had 0 turnovers in the loss to KC and just 1 in the Cincy game last year that was on the last play of the game down 3 scores on a heave down field in bad weather...which had no bearing or impact on that game what so ever.  So the narrative of its Allens turnovers is completely false, yet the narrative persists.

 

Meanwhile, guys like Herbert who can't even make the playoffs and has a losing record and Burrow who is worse in almost every statistical metric in the postseason than Josh, including turnover rate, don't get the same ridicule and criticism as Josh.  I mean Josh has 8 playoff games, and Burrow has 7...Josh averages over 80 yards more per game, more than 1 TD more per game, and double his TD-TO ratio at 5 to 1 compared to Burrows 2.5 to 1.  Furthermore, Burrow only has 3 less INT's than Josh the past 2 regular seasons =, and only 2 less if you count the postseason.  Burrow isn't being questioned about his interceptions though even though he has had a superior cast of weapons, in fact, one of the best cast of weapons in the whole NFL.  

 

Yet these narratives and criticisms remain at a much harsher level for Josh than Herbert and Burrow have faced despite the fact that as a QB, Josh has accomplished much more than them on an individual level both in regular season and post season performances.  

Herbert has absolutely not entered into 3rd best talk. Hurts has. 
 

currently I think the tiers are pretty consistently:

 

mahomes 

 

burrow-Allen-hurts

 

lawrence-lamar-tua

herbert floating back and forth here

 

Dak-cousins

 

sure you can find knee jerk people to support any opinion on any individual guy for attention and clicks (and I’m sure in randomly shooting this out I didn’t include everyone off the cuff) but generally there’s not a ton of widespread divergence from roughly that these days

 

And I don’t think that’s a terribly unfair area for herbert these days. Top 10 but not top 5?

53 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

To be clear, I am not dumping on Herbert to say he isn't a good QB...but it does irk me quite a bit when I see people listing Herbert ahead of Allen on who is the better QB like I saw after week 1 Jets game.  

 

But I really only started this thread more out of surprise to see that he didn't even have a winning record despite having enough talent around him that it feels like he should have.  It’s one thing they haven't made the playoffs yet in a tough AFC conference, but just had not realized he didn't even have a winning record.

almost no one doing genuine commentary is truly arguing that. 
 

Guys trying to manufacture hot takes for attention are the only ones and not even that many of them are taking the stance. There are likely more flat earthers than Herbert over Allen takes. 

[BruceVilanch]

18 hours ago, AuntieEm said:

And yet he got paid like he is a winning quarterback.  It's amazing that they paid him like he was a winner but I guess Chargers got a different definition for franchise qb.  One who plays to the script he's given.  Maybe that's why the Chargers moved to LA. For the easy access to actimg coaches to help their players excel in their roles as per the nfl script.  I'm sure they will be in the running for some soon to be  top qb in upcoming drafts.  Then they'll be allowed to trade this loser to a real needy franchise with more of a winning history.  Maybe Washington after theý get their next hc and new gm following new ownership making the changes?  I know Snyder really ran the skins into a losing culture for as once solidly run franchise. Once there he will be able to at least partially improve might not be given a winners script they may just let him play out his contract then get a future rookie prospect to rinse repeat as the nfl writes its new scripts. 

 

 

Sounds like you got the script all mapped out!

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

And I agree with you...I think its unquestioned they are the top 3 right now...however, that is not always the narrative as much anymore specifically around Allen both in sports media and even here by some posters.  In fact, after the Bengals loss and Jets game, the narrative has been that not only is Burrow "now" the unquestioned 2nd best QB, that Allen may not even be 3rd with guys like Herbert, Lawerence, etc entering the convo for those detractors. 

 

In fact, a common narrative has been that Bills haven't gotten over the hump and reached the Super Bowl because of Allens turnovers in big moments, which would mean the playoffs, even though Allen has 20 TDs to just 4 Turnovers in his post season career.  That includes the last 2 playoff exits where he had 0 turnovers in the loss to KC and just 1 in the Cincy game last year that was on the last play of the game down 3 scores on a heave down field in bad weather...which had no bearing or impact on that game what so ever.  So the narrative of its Allens turnovers is completely false, yet the narrative persists.

 

Meanwhile, guys like Herbert who can't even make the playoffs and has a losing record and Burrow who is worse in almost every statistical metric in the postseason than Josh, including turnover rate, don't get the same ridicule and criticism as Josh.  I mean Josh has 8 playoff games, and Burrow has 7...Josh averages over 80 yards more per game, more than 1 TD more per game, and double his TD-TO ratio at 5 to 1 compared to Burrows 2.5 to 1.  Furthermore, Burrow only has 3 less INT's than Josh the past 2 regular seasons =, and only 2 less if you count the postseason.  Burrow isn't being questioned about his interceptions though even though he has had a superior cast of weapons, in fact, one of the best cast of weapons in the whole NFL.  

 

Yet these narratives and criticisms remain at a much harsher level for Josh than Herbert and Burrow have faced despite the fact that as a QB, Josh has accomplished much more than them on an individual level both in regular season and post season performances.  

Well by the same token, if you want to make an Allen/Herbert comparison, Herbert has the far worse coaching staff. I think everyone would agree. 
 

The Chargers are somehow WORSE than the sum of their parts which, at the NFL level, usually means coaching ineptitude. I would go as so far as to say that if you switched Staley and McD, we would probably very similar teams. That’s how bad Staley is.

 

And a lot of folks give Herbert slack for having a bad HC. Some give him too much, in my opinion. But if you want to know the reason why Herbert hasn’t had MORE success than he has had, coaching is #1, #2 and #3 on the list.

[SoTier]

14 hours ago, uninja said:

 

That 2010 Chargers squad is the proverbial case study for why special teams play DOES matter.

 

That was the season that they ran through multiple kickers because whoever was kicking for them always seemed to miss a PAT or FG in a close game IIRC. 

 

10 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Herbert is the definition of why wins aren’t solely a qb stat.  Average weapons and a defense that’s overpaid relative to their performance.  Imagine Herbert on the 49ers, Eagles, or Dolphins.  They’d be putting up historic numbers.

 

Agree.  Conversely, my guess is that if Mahomes, Allen or Burrow were on the Chargers, their win-lost records would only be marginally better than Herbert's.   The Chargers' problems over at least the last 2 decades haven't been the fault of their QBs -- their FOs have always been able to find good QBs even if they figure out much else.

[GunnerBill]

8 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

Maybe someday the Chargers will learn you still need a defense to win in this league. Also Herbert has great stats but I always consider that game a W for the Pats because BB owns him. 

 

They have the most expensive defense in the NFL. They know defense matters. They are just bad at it.

7 hours ago, NoSaint said:

Herbert has absolutely not entered into 3rd best talk. Hurts has. 
 

currently I think the tiers are pretty consistently:

 

mahomes 

 

burrow-Allen-hurts

 

lawrence-lamar-tua

herbert floating back and forth here

 

Dak-cousins

 

sure you can find knee jerk people to support any opinion on any individual guy for attention and clicks (and I’m sure in randomly shooting this out I didn’t include everyone off the cuff) but generally there’s not a ton of widespread divergence from roughly that these days

 

And I don’t think that’s a terribly unfair area for herbert these days. Top 10 but not top 5?

almost no one doing genuine commentary is truly arguing that. 
 

Guys trying to manufacture hot takes for attention are the only ones and not even that many of them are taking the stance. There are likely more flat earthers than Herbert over Allen takes. 

 

Agree. I am honestly not seeing the sort of coverage @Alphadawg7 is talking about. But then I am not a great watcher of the talking head shows so maybe it is out there. 

 

Allen got a LOT of heat for the Jets game - much of it deserved. Any QB turning the ball over 4 times does. Even when a non-elite guy turns it over 4 times in a loss they get media heat so when a top level guy does it of course it is a story. But I didn't see a rush of people saying "Justin Herbert is better than him." Indeed, if Herbert had a 4 turnover game he'd be rinsed too.

[Sierra Foothills]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:46 PM, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Tua > Herbert?

 

This is the conversation IMO.

 

Both were taken in the 2020 draft. Tua went 5th overall and Herbert 6th (Burrows went 1st).

 

About a year ago it was very popular to state that Herbert was better than Tua and that the Dolphins erred.

 

Now that belief isn't stated as much anymore.

 

IMO QB is a neck up position and Tua is better from the neck up while Herbert's better from the neck down.

 

In fairness Tua has the better weapons and the better coaching and I think most NFL GMs would still take Herbert over Tua...but I still believe Tua has the better mind for the game.

 

[FireChans]

43 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

This is the conversation IMO.

 

Both were taken in the 2020 draft. Tua went 5th overall and Herbert 6th (Burrows went 1st).

 

About a year ago it was very popular to state that Herbert was better than Tua and that the Dolphins erred.

 

Now that belief isn't stated as much anymore.

 

IMO QB is a neck up position and Tua is better from the neck up while Herbert's better from the neck down.

 

In fairness Tua has the better weapons and the better coaching and I think most NFL GMs would still take Herbert over Tua...but I still believe Tua has the better mind for the game.

 

Personally, I think Herbert’s talents are wasted a bit in his offense. I think in that Dolphins offense he would be even better than Tua. Alas.

[Sierra Foothills]

Just now, FireChans said:

Personally, I think Herbert’s talents are wasted a bit in his offense. I think in that Dolphins offense he would be even better than Tua. Alas.

 

Herbert having Tua's weapons and coaching is a scary thought indeed.

 

[PatsFanNH]

48 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

This is the conversation IMO.

 

Both were taken in the 2020 draft. Tua went 5th overall and Herbert 6th (Burrows went 1st).

 

About a year ago it was very popular to state that Herbert was better than Tua and that the Dolphins erred.

 

Now that belief isn't stated as much anymore.

 

IMO QB is a neck up position and Tua is better from the neck up while Herbert's better from the neck down.

 

In fairness Tua has the better weapons and the better coaching and I think most NFL GMs would still take Herbert over Tua...but I still believe Tua has the better mind for the game.

 

IMO you take Tua and put him on my Pats they are still 0-2, you take Herbert and do the same thing and they would be 2-0. I mean if you put Jones on the Dolphins, people be saying how amazing he is because of all the talent around him making it easy.. heck Waddle already said he thought Jones was a better QB than Tua (before he was drafted)

[Sierra Foothills]

5 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

IMO you take Tua and put him on my Pats they are still 0-2, you take Herbert and do the same thing and they would be 2-0. I mean if you put Jones on the Dolphins, people be saying how amazing he is because of all the talent around him making it easy.. heck Waddle already said he thought Jones was a better QB than Tua (before he was drafted)

 

I get your point and don't totally disagree though I'm not sure the Pats are 2-0 with Herbert... maybe 1-1?

 

Anyways I've been very impressed with Tua lately. He processes play very quickly and his ball placement is excellent.

 

He's definitely underwhelming physically but I think he understands the game in a way that most NFL QBs don't.

 

[78thealltimegreat]

Herbert gets a ton of his passer stats in garbage time and against teams the Chargers should beat.

If you ask Justin to make a big play..at a big moment…in a big game…he usually can’t 

[CircleTheWagons99]

On 9/22/2023 at 12:44 AM, FireChans said:

I think Justin Herbert is a great QB being held back by putrid coaching moreso than just about anyone else in the league, but I also think he’s overrated. 
 

It’s kind of a conundrum. 

I really believe the chargerz are cursed. 

[Sierra Foothills]

2 minutes ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

I really believe the chargerz are cursed. 

 

https://www.overtimeheroics.net/2023/09/23/the-chargers-are-a-cursed-a-disgusting-franchise-nfl-analyst-marvels-at-los-angeles-franchises-remarkable-misfortune-as-injuries-threaten-to-derail-season/#:~:text=They also discussed the Chargers' game plan and upcoming performance predictions.&text=During the talk show%2C Benjamin,man should put his heart.