Justin Herbert's record after 52 starts vs others (couple former Bills show up)

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The highest paid defense in the NFL (in terms of cap dollars allocated in 2023).

 

What is Staley's problem?  He seems pretty intelligent and I think probably puts together a solid game plan....not sure.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

The greatest team ever in terms of sustained success at the highest level was dink and dunk to the RB's for the majority of their reign. They also sprinkled in slot guys like Welker and Edelman and then had the big receiver to go to in Gronk. Not too dissimilar to the Chargers offense with Allen being the possession slot guy and Mike Willaims the big, bodied receiver. 

 

Hasn't one of the Chargers biggest issues been injuries over the last few seasons? I believe Mike Williams missed the Jags WC game last year right because the idiot of a coach decided to play him the week before in a meaningless game. Mike Williams and Keenan Allen last year combined to miss 11 games. They have even been banged up on their o-line with Rashawn Slater missing all but 3 games last season. And their Center was out for three games. On defense Derwin James and Bosa are both notorious for missing a lot of games due to injury over the last few seasons. 

 

I don't think they ever had a running back go close to 100 catches in a season let along beyond it. I would also not call Welker or Edelman slot guys that they "sprinkled in." Those guys were the engines that made that offense go. They both averaged 11 yards per reception through their career. Eckler averages under 9. That's the point. Belichick also always had a deep threat guy even if that guy wasn't, beyond the Moss period, their "go to" receiver. At times last year the Chargers had no way at all to stretch the field. 

[SoTier]

8 hours ago, FireChans said:

I think Justin Herbert is a great QB being held back by putrid coaching moreso than just about anyone else in the league, but I also think he’s overrated. 
 

It’s kind of a conundrum. 

 

Oh, it's not just putrid coaching.   That would be too simple to account for the continual ineptitude of the Chargers over the last two decades.  Back in the early 2000s, the Chargers were loaded with talent, thanks especially to the Eli Manning trade.  They didn't have just a great QB in Philip Rivers, they had two, and the one they let walk away, Drew Brees, was even better.  They could steamroll teams during the regular season but couldn't win playoff games despite having plenty of talent.  For most of Rivers' career, the Chargers managed to lose key games with the same kind of blunders that they've made this season.  They've been doing it for 20 years.  The Chargers have changed players, coaches, GMs, cities, owners, stadiums -- and they still manage to "seize defeat from the jaws of victory".   The Chargers just "Charger".

[Breakout Squad]

6 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

Maybe a bit, but its not his fault his defense choked away a 23 point 2nd half lead in the playoffs.

 

Now that's an epic defensive meltdown!

Still gotta move the chains and kill the clock. They failed epically 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think they ever had a running back go close to 100 catches in a season let along beyond it. I would also not call Welker or Edelman slot guys that they "sprinkled in." Those guys were the engines that made that offense go. They both averaged 11 yards per reception through their career. Eckler averages under 9. That's the point. Belichick also always had a deep threat guy even if that guy wasn't, beyond the Moss period, their "go to" receiver. At times last year the Chargers had no way at all to stretch the field. 

 

Keenan Allen is the comp to Welker and Edelman. Not Eckler. You are correct they never had one back get 100 catches like Eckler did last year. But A. that was a career year and not the norm for Eckler and B. The Pats did routinely have multiple backs combine for 70-100 catches on the year. They were more diverse out  of the back field with their personnel. 

 

Last year was a career worst year for Eckler in terms of ypr.  He was looking really good this year (7.3 yp rush and 11.8 yp reception) in admittedly a very small sample size before he got injured. 

 

Injuries again really hurting the Chargers already. 

[Yobogoya!]

I dunno I feel like the Chargers have done pretty well for a team that hasn't played a home game since 2016!

 

But seriously, however good Herbert is or isn't, that's a seriously crap-tacular franchise from the owner on down to the sideline. I can't imagine the culture in that locker room is much more than guys who are going out every week to collect a paycheck. 

[LABILLBACKER]

9 hours ago, FireChans said:

I think Justin Herbert is a great QB being held back by putrid coaching moreso than just about anyone else in the league, but I also think he’s overrated. 
 

It’s kind of a conundrum. 

Agree, I think the Chargers regret not letting Daboll work with him. But he is definitely over-rated. The Chargers, Giants and Browns will be strapped for years.

Edited September 22, 2023 by LABILLBACKER

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, mannc said:

it’s curious to me that Herbert really doesn’t ever run the ball unless forced to; no designed runs.  This is a guy who is probably Josh Allen’s equal as a runner.  I assume it’s because of injury concerns but this is a major part of his game that the chargers just ignore.

 

I think it is because Herbert lacks a lot of the agility that Allen has. Herbert doesn't come close to Allen in that regard. Herbert is more of a straight-line runner only. Allen is both a straight-line runner but can also has the agility and vision to get the most out of his runs. 

[H2o]

8 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Saw this stat earlier tonight about Justin Herberts record after 52 games.  And this is a guy making $262.5M and that since entering the NFL he has had a potent stable of weapons including Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Austin Ekeler, and more.

 

These are some of the QB's who have better records than him after 52 starts:

 

Mark Sanchez:  31-21

Andy Dalton:  31-21

Mitch Trubisky:  29-23

Carson Wentz:  28-24

Teddy Bridgewater:  28-24

Baker Mayfield:  27-25

Matt Cassel:  27-25

Tyrod Taylor:  26-25-1

______________________________

Justin Herbert:  25-27

 

I know that W/L records are not all on a QB...but that is a pretty pitiful record for a guy making $262.5M and playing with the kind of weapons he has had around him.  

 

Just sayin'

Good morning gentlemen, and ladies. Long time no see. 

 

On to the Herbert debate. I like Herbert. Good QB, and the market is what it is for good QB's these days. Can't really fault him, or his agent, for maximizing his value. It's not like he's Daniel Jones or anything. He has had some solid weapons around him since he's been in the league with Ekeler, Allen, Williams, and whatever option at TE. His numbers have been really good every year. In 2021 he threw for over 5000yds. Last year he threw for over 4700yds. He has a cannon arm, and is pretty smart with the football. One thing I have noticed about Herbert is he just doesn't seem to have that "it" factor about him. You could see it in Josh from that first start against Minnesota. I have never seen that same fire, or felt like Herbert was the same type of leader of men that Josh is. And people are right, it does seem like he disappears at times or shrinks in the moment. In the end, I'm still glad Miami took Tua over Herbert. I'd hate to see him twice a year with that stable of weapons around him.

 

Brandon Staley, however, has to be one of the worst head coaches in the league imo. He's had questionable call after questionable call, game after game for 3 years now. The icing on the cake was the blown 27-0 lead last year in the Playoffs. Now this year, in the juggernaut that is the AFC, they have started off 0-2. I don't see how he still has his job tbh. I would imagine he'll be canned at some point during or after the season if he doesn't right the ship really quick. The main issue I have with Staley is how their defense constantly looks, being DC is his background. I believe he is truly the one holding the Chargers back at this point. 

[mannc]

10 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

I think it is because Herbert lacks a lot of the agility that Allen has. Herbert doesn't come close to Allen in that regard. Herbert is more of a straight-line runner only. Allen is both a straight-line runner but can also has the agility and vision to get the most out of his runs. 

I'm not sure I agree with that.  I think it's because Herbert's not as physically tough as Allen, even though they are the same size.  He was injured a couple times at Oregon on designed runs.  After that, Oregon kept him in the pocket and he was not as effective.  I have not seen him run any designed runs with the Chargers.

Edited September 22, 2023 by mannc

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

People love Herbert because he has such a silky smooth throwing motion. 

[uninja]

9 hours ago, Allen2Diggs said:

The Chargers are perennial under-performers. In 2010 they had the league's top offense and defense yet missed the playoffs.

 

That 2010 Chargers squad is the proverbial case study for why special teams play DOES matter.

Edited September 22, 2023 by uninja

[Scott7975]

I think that franchise is just cursed.  They've had Brees, Phillips, and now Herbert with varying talent and a bunch of different coaches.  Nothing but choke artists. LIke it never changes. They just find ways to lose no matter who is there.  I also don't think Herbert is on Allen, Mahomes level. He is good but I don't think he is there.  Something is missing from his game. LIke he doesn't have the drive to win or something.

[CincyBillsFan]

Herbert increasingly reminds me of Cousins:  very good QB who puts up great stats but in the end the results don't seem to match the production.

[julian]

43 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think they ever had a running back go close to 100 catches in a season let along beyond it. I would also not call Welker or Edelman slot guys that they "sprinkled in." Those guys were the engines that made that offense go. They both averaged 11 yards per reception through their career. Eckler averages under 9. That's the point. Belichick also always had a deep threat guy even if that guy wasn't, beyond the Moss period, their "go to" receiver. At times last year the Chargers had no way at all to stretch the field. 

I respect the effort you’re making to lay blame at the feet of his weapons and I agree with most of what you’re saying. I had Herbert ranked #3 going into the season because of the talent he possesses but I’m ready to call a spade a spade.

 

 Kirk Cousins is starting to look like the career comparison, amazing stats but unable/unwilling to elevate those around them in crunch time. I’ve been saying the last 2 years Staley is garbage.

 

 Get a new offensive coach in there, one where the rb check down game is your last read and not your first, and see if the kid has more in him, they paid him so they need to do more to help him.

[fergie's ire]

8 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

geez. Every year since Rivers they're hyped up and talented and continue to underperform every year, pretty unbelievable 

Since?  I would include those Rivers years as well.  They may have made the playoffs a couple of times, but almost always underperform.  Every year it seems like I hear THIS year the Chargers are going to challenge...but then they don't.  I seem to remember one year they had something like a 3 game division lead with 4 to play and lost it.  Just the Chargers being Chargery.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

26 minutes ago, mannc said:

I'm not sure I agree with that.  I think it's because Herbert's not as physically tough as Allen, even though they are the same size.  He was injured a couple times at Oregon on designed runs.  After that, Oregon kept him in the pocket and he was not as effective.  I have not seen him run any designed runs with the Chargers.

I agree that toughness is one factor. But Allen had the ability to turn defensive players around, break their ankles with Mike moves and hurdle them. For his size Allen is incredibly agile. 

[nedboy7]

This proves Tyrod was the real deal.

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, julian said:

I respect the effort you’re making to lay blame at the feet of his weapons and I agree with most of what you’re saying. I had Herbert ranked #3 going into the season because of the talent he possesses but I’m ready to call a spade a spade.

 

 Kirk Cousins is starting to look like the career comparison, amazing stats but unable/unwilling to elevate those around them in crunch time. I’ve been saying the last 2 years Staley is garbage.

 

 Get a new offensive coach in there, one where the rb check down game is your last read and not your first, and see if the kid has more in him, they paid him so they need to do more to help him.

 

I'm not absolving Herbert of blame. I am just contradicting the "potent stable of weapons" narrative. In my opinion if you want to rank the issues with the Chargers they go:

 

1. Defensive performance;

2. Head Coach (who has some blame for #1 obviously);

3. Receiving weapons - or more precisely the makeup thereof;

4. Justin Herbert's inability to put complete games together. 

 

He is "on the list" he just isn't super high up it. 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Yobogoya! said:

I dunno I feel like the Chargers have done pretty well for a team that hasn't played a home game since 2016!

 

But seriously, however good Herbert is or isn't, that's a seriously crap-tacular franchise from the owner on down to the sideline. I can't imagine the culture in that locker room is much more than guys who are going out every week to collect a paycheck. 

Funny how everyone neglects to start at the top.  Spanos.  Spanos. Spanos. Spanos. And more Spanos.  
 

Telesco, at the helm for all these years, has been solid in terms of acquiring talent.  Too bad talent doesn’t mean crap if you don’t have a coach.  His neglect of the HC position has put his talent at a disadvantage.  Spanos has allowed Telesco to neglect the HC position.  No accountability.  No success