ExiledInIllinois Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 We're winning the war becasue it's not Americans that are dying. That's the only thing that really matters. 350805[/snapback] Mgmt's mantra: "What ever gets you through the day." "Its an away game." Somebody, please just don't look into history.
Ghost of BiB Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 Mgmt's mantra: "What ever gets you through the day." "Its an away game." Somebody, please just don't look into history. 351027[/snapback] What does anyone expect? Two things are going on, "Jihad" against the infidels, comprised of native Iraqis and fundamentalist nut cases from Lord knows where, and a minority populace with a radical element that has been in charge for several years and now isn't. As soon as the invasion started, they went to ground with the intent of making everything as miserable as possible until we went away. None of these countries have much of a history of settling their internal or external differences "diplomatically". It's going to take years for things to shake out - anyone who anticipated anything else is stupid. But, this is America. Americans want things RIGHT NOW, until they change their mind and want something else. And Exiled, the "Away Game" is working just fine. When you get an idea of what you are talking about vs. your pie in the sky emotional opinions, let me know. You and quite a few others can sing Kumbaya until the cows come home, and it's not going to change anything. Get it through your head that this is war, whether the battleground be Iraq, Iran, Pakistan - or New York, Washington or Chicago. I'm sure your well thought out dynamic solution to it all is to buy more firetrucks and protective suits, hunker down and wait and put the fires out in the burning rubble after a few thousand more of our people are dead. When this country allows the draconian security provisions and the suspension of civil rights required for adequate security, it might get a little easier. But as long as things are the way they are, Homeland Security in the Homeland is a friggen nightmare and is going to stay that way for the near future. Don't look at the world as it is now. Think of what it should look like in 10 years.
BigAL Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 Good Lord. Please don't be a mongoloid. 351012[/snapback] Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it our government's position that it's better to fight the terrorist on their soil rather than ours? Therefore, the fact that Americans, (other than troops, but they're expendable) aren't dying in large numbers due to terrorism is a success.
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 What does anyone expect? Two things are going on, "Jihad" against the infidels, comprised of native Iraqis and fundamentalist nut cases from Lord knows where, and a minority populace with a radical element that has been in charge for several years and now isn't. As soon as the invasion started, they went to ground with the intent of making everything as miserable as possible until we went away. None of these countries have much of a history of settling their internal or external differences "diplomatically". It's going to take years for things to shake out - anyone who anticipated anything else is stupid. But, this is America. Americans want things RIGHT NOW, until they change their mind and want something else. And Exiled, the "Away Game" is working just fine. When you get an idea of what you are talking about vs. your pie in the sky emotional opinions, let me know. You and quite a few others can sing Kumbaya until the cows come home, and it's not going to change anything. Get it through your head that this is war, whether the battleground be Iraq, Iran, Pakistan - or New York, Washington or Chicago. I'm sure your well thought out dynamic solution to it all is to buy more firetrucks and protective suits, hunker down and wait and put the fires out in the burning rubble after a few thousand more of our people are dead. When this country allows the draconian security provisions and the suspension of civil rights required for adequate security, it might get a little easier. But as long as things are the way they are, Homeland Security in the Homeland is a friggen nightmare and is going to stay that way for the near future. Don't look at the world as it is now. Think of what it should look like in 10 years. 351036[/snapback] That is what I am afraid of? Once a toll plaza goes up. Do they ever come down? I'll just take my chances now and fight for myself, thank you.
philburger1 Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 Get real. There are plenty terrorists from ouside the country, but many are Iraqis. State your sources regarding your "fact". I'll wait patiently. 351009[/snapback] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5051401270.html 'Martyrs' In Iraq Mostly Saudis Web Sites Track Suicide Bombings
KRC Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 Let's be civil here. 351017[/snapback] But , yet you stated: Good Lord. Please don't be a mongoloid. Way to practice what you preach.
blzrul Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it our government's position that it's better to fight the terrorist on their soil rather than ours? Therefore, the fact that Americans, (other than troops, but they're expendable) aren't dying in large numbers due to terrorism is a success. 351038[/snapback] Since when did we Americans become such a lot of COWARDS that we're perfectly willing to sit back home, eat pizza and worry about Paris Hilton while our young people are dying on foreign soil...along with a whole lot of other innocent people who wish THEY could sit around eating pizza and thinking about nothing in particular. During WWI and WWII even people who couldn't fight sacrificed. Then we learned to fight Commies in other people's countries and we liked it just fine. Let those slanty-eyed people die, life's cheap over there right? So we've just shifted the theatre a little bit to kill other people who aren't like us. One attack on our own soil and we freak out, hiding behind plastic and duct tape. Some "home of the brave". If we all believed so much that we were really in peril, and under constant threat, and fighting for our lives, we wouldn't let it happen. But the fact is that as long as most Americans don't have to exert themselves, it's just A-OK to let someone else do it for us. As the Romans about that. OH we can't, can we, because they're gone. Oops. We're making enemies faster than we can kill them.
philburger1 Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 One attack on our own soil and we freak out, hiding behind plastic and duct tape. Some "home of the brave". We're making enemies faster than we can kill them. 351192[/snapback] Hardly. Image how China would have reacted to is Muslim Citizens if it happened there. Imagine how Christians would be treated in Syria or Yemen if s amll group of them crashed a plane in the tallest building around. Think they would have commercials soon after, saying : "I am a Sryian"? Yeah, ok
Thurman's Helmet Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 AMERICA BAD! AMERICANS ARE FRAIDY CATS! MUST LISTEN TO GOOD CANADIANS LIKE MICHAEL MOORE TO TELL ME HOW TO THINK AND BEHAVE! MUST WATCH AMERICAN IDOL! MUST EAT HOT POCKETS!
UConn James Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 Since when did we Americans become such a lot of COWARDS that we're perfectly willing to sit back home, eat pizza and worry about Paris Hilton while our young people are dying on foreign soil...along with a whole lot of other innocent people who wish THEY could sit around eating pizza and thinking about nothing in particular. During WWI and WWII even people who couldn't fight sacrificed. Then we learned to fight Commies in other people's countries and we liked it just fine. Let those slanty-eyed people die, life's cheap over there right? So we've just shifted the theatre a little bit to kill other people who aren't like us. One attack on our own soil and we freak out, hiding behind plastic and duct tape. Some "home of the brave". If we all believed so much that we were really in peril, and under constant threat, and fighting for our lives, we wouldn't let it happen. But the fact is that as long as most Americans don't have to exert themselves, it's just A-OK to let someone else do it for us. As the Romans about that. OH we can't, can we, because they're gone. Oops. We're making enemies faster than we can kill them. 351192[/snapback] I've asked questions several times about the parallels b/w the Roman use of military and ours. I never got a reply. I have become much less a critic of Bush's foreign and military policy in the past few months (his domestic policy has utterly, utterly sucked tho). Maybe after reading BiB's posts, or watching Frontline pieces or just the accumulated weight of what's going on in the Arab Street that's not going to change b/c they live in the 1300s by choice. Kill as many of the enemy as possible and then get out. The Afghanistan model was actually pretty good in this regard; I just hope the Iraq presence is similarly cut by next year and we don't have to rename them the InterNational Guard (see: Parallels w/ Roman use of military). I do agree that Americans' lack of knowledge/involvement in our homeland security (and I mean this in the broadest sense -- food supply, emergency medical services) is abyssmal. But I don't know; it's hard to blame people who come home from 60-80 hours a week and just have enough free time to hang our hard hats, sleep, eat and say hello to the family. BigAL, our troops are "expendable"? I lament at the loss of the :I starred in Brokeback Mountain: 'smilie.'
Ghost of BiB Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 That is what I am afraid of? Once a toll plaza goes up. Do they ever come down? I'll just take my chances now and fight for myself, thank you. 351050[/snapback] Since you don't have to, that makes it pretty easy, doesn't it?
Ghost of BiB Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 Amazing how many people divert attention from the topic of my post. The "Yes, but ..." answers are amazing. Never did I say that saddam wasn't worthy of his fate, and that he wasn't a bad man. All I said was that the situation is a major cluster!@#$ of which our brilliant minds in washington hardly expected. I'm sure many Iraqis will eventually be better off. But remember, this is not only an attempt at bringing freedom to Iraqi people, but also an attempt to get rid of Saddam's WMDs, and end the threat of terror in the world. To me, 12K people dying (and the numbers are increasing in frequency) is not a sign of success. The point is civilians are being killed. Still. The point of a war on terror is to reduce that number. It's not happening. A shame, in my mind. I said nothing about our troops, the dumbass and oft-repeated mantra that "Freedom isn't free." Think for yourselves folks. Rid your minds of "Four legs good, two legs bad." Everything isn't coming up roses. This isn't some dumbass liberal anti-war post. It's an attempt to bring to light a few facts, and if you folks don't want to look at some actual numbers, you are doing yourselves a disservice. 351008[/snapback] Todd? Since you brought it up, would you like to give any of us some facts?
SilverNRed Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 My only point is that we are not winning the war on terror. 351014[/snapback] A point you base on all the facts that you like and none of the facts you don't.
SilverNRed Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 The point is civilians are being killed. Still. The point of a war on terror is to reduce that number. It's not happening. 351008[/snapback] Uh, actually it is happening because less people have died in Iraq since the war started than would have had Saddam been allowed to retain power under those wonderful UN "sanctions." Oh, but whatever. In the meantime, Iraq is a democracy, Lebanon is having a democratic revolution, and Libya has disarmed. There also hasn't been an attack on American soil since 9/11. But, yeah, the GWOT is going horribly.
Ghost of BiB Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 Don't beat your brains out. Been there, done that. Not a slam on Todd, not by any means...but folks like Todd jump in with whatever caught their eye at the time. He's airing his point, as he sees it. It really takes a lot of work, and research to keep up and understand any of it. Honestly, if I didn't do it for a living I probably wouldn't bother much either. What IS disappointing is that collectively, we don't bother. I somewhat have issue with the "thinking for ourself" implications. We have a fellow poster telling us to "think for ourselves", and the substance of his position is based on a young persons emotions and a soundbite from whatever. This, sadly, makes him informed. It's a little scary to me that someone's version of thinking for themselves is little more than echoing a mass media mantra. Old argument, I know...it still is saddening. I have a 19 year old pen pal from Poland, very pretty young girl, who knows more about what is going on in the world than most of us intelligent, educated, all-worldly Americans. Sorry, Todd...you don't understand 5 percent of any of it. Jump me...but you don't. Not just you, but most. You're my "Poster Child" for the day. This is where I do and will fault, as with any other semi or actual serious subject discussed here and elsewhere. Here, Scott's PPP board, is BS, it's the elsewhere that bothers me. All of us here are basically harmless, for now. Maybe the next voting session will give everyone a few moments-y'all voted Hillary as your NYS Senator...you're capable of anything, given a TV commercial. I'm convinced of that. As an American, and a hell of a lot more apolitical than many consider me to be, I just really wish that at least a few people would open their eyes, their minds, their thoughts to THE BIG PICTURE. Take some time to digest it, and figure it from there. Yeah, you want to comment and opine, you require no knowledge. You want to help? Study. Read. Google. Get background. Understand what others are thinking in their terms, not by American standards. Not just the "Middle East Muslims", but the French, the Germans, the Chinese...it's a small blue marble, when seen from far away. And for Christ's sake, turn off the damn TV once in a while.
EC-Bills Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 Don't beat your brains out. Been there, done that. Not a slam on Todd, not by any means...but folks like Todd jump in with whatever caught their eye at the time. He's airing his point, as he sees it. It really takes a lot of work, and research to keep up and understand any of it. Honestly, if I didn't do it for a living I probably wouldn't bother much either. What IS disappointing is that collectively, we don't bother. I somewhat have issue with the "thinking for ourself" implications. We have a fellow poster telling us to "think for ourselves", and the substance of his position is based on a young persons emotions and a soundbite from whatever. This, sadly, makes him informed. It's a little scary to me that someone's version of thinking for themselves is little more than echoing a mass media mantra. Old argument, I know...it still is saddening. I have a 19 year old pen pal from Poland, very pretty young girl, who knows more about what is going on in the world than most of us intelligent, educated, all-worldly Americans. Sorry, Todd...you don't understand 5 percent of any of it. Jump me...but you don't. Not just you, but most. You're my "Poster Child" for the day. This is where I do and will fault, as with any other semi or actual serious subject discussed here and elsewhere. Here, Scott's PPP board, is BS, it's the elsewhere that bothers me. All of us here are basically harmless, for now. Maybe the next voting session will give everyone a few moments-y'all voted Hillary as your NYS Senator...you're capable of anything, given a TV commercial. I'm convinced of that. As an American, and a hell of a lot more apolitical than many consider me to be, I just really wish that at least a few people would open their eyes, their minds, their thoughts to THE BIG PICTURE. Take some time to digest it, and figure it from there. Yeah, you want to comment and opine, you require no knowledge. You want to help? Study. Read. Google. Get background. Understand what others are thinking in their terms, not by American standards. Not just the "Middle East Muslims", but the French, the Germans, the Chinese...it's a small blue marble, when seen from far away. And for Christ's sake, turn off the damn TV once in a while. 351279[/snapback] I agree with the getting perspective from other view points. I have a buddy in Norway and another in Germany that have helped open my eyes up to different international perspectives on things when they were exchange students while I was in HS. Visiting Germany also didn't hurt. It got me to realize that I should be questioning of what "news" is being reported instead of blindly believing it.
erynthered Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 Let's be civil here. The situation in Iraq, despite the freedom we are bringing the citizens, is not one that indicates that we are "winning the war on terror." The number of innocent deaths at the hands of these sickos is rising, and it isn't getting better. That's all I'm saying. 351017[/snapback] I will be civil, sorry. What happens here is is people misconstrue the situation or situations. Are we winning the war on terrorism? Who the hell knows, why does it have to be a game score? Looking at the BIG picture tells me that there have been some true strides in attacking or diffusing global terrorism. Are we hearing everything that is being squashed by the work hundred or thousands are doing to Kibosh the attempts made against our Country? Hello? Sorry. Think out of the box here Todd. Baby steps, Baby steps. This has been going on for years and years. Its only just now that there has been an effort to try and stem off the BS that has been happening. Think Globally This is not new, but only now are we trying to fight it. The Media? how do you rate those folks?
BigAL Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 I've asked questions several times about the parallels b/w the Roman use of military and ours. I never got a reply. I have become much less a critic of Bush's foreign and military policy in the past few months (his domestic policy has utterly, utterly sucked tho). Maybe after reading BiB's posts, or watching Frontline pieces or just the accumulated weight of what's going on in the Arab Street that's not going to change b/c they live in the 1300s by choice. Kill as many of the enemy as possible and then get out. The Afghanistan model was actually pretty good in this regard; I just hope the Iraq presence is similarly cut by next year and we don't have to rename them the InterNational Guard (see: Parallels w/ Roman use of military). I do agree that Americans' lack of knowledge/involvement in our homeland security (and I mean this in the broadest sense -- food supply, emergency medical services) is abyssmal. But I don't know; it's hard to blame people who come home from 60-80 hours a week and just have enough free time to hang our hard hats, sleep, eat and say hello to the family. BigAL, our troops are "expendable"? I lament at the loss of the :I starred in Brokeback Mountain: 'smilie.' 351230[/snapback] When you launch a pre-emptive war to to keep the enemy occupied on their territory instead of ours, then yes the troops are expendable.
Ghost of BiB Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 When you launch a pre-emptive war to to keep the enemy occupied on their territory instead of ours, then yes the troops are expendable. 351297[/snapback] OW...you left yourself open to a lot of darts...easily pointed and tossed ones too. A veritable flurry. I'll get my shots in now. No troops are "expendable". That is simplistic, bitter, and a very mean thing to say. That said, there are also acceptable risks for the mission. Once again, America, most of it, lives by soundbites, and has not seen more than a few dead American Soldiers or Marines for quite some time. There are two entire generations of America, both of them tuned into the violence, as long as it is a video game, a rap song, or a movie - and ignoring the reality of life. So, the "troops" are less "expendable" if they die on our soil? Along with your wife, children, friends? The mindset of this country truly frightens me. Y'all make it so much harder. You really do.
don_of_manhattan Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 We're winning the war becasue it's not Americans that are dying. That's the only thing that really matters. 350805[/snapback] Americans are all that matter? It's too bad you feel that way - I thought they were human beings as well. What about the 1600 Americans who have died over there for nothing. You can't justify a bad war by losing valiant soldiers - that is what makes fighting a meaningless war so wrong. I fear that we will leave that place and it will turn out just like Vietnam - we could have accomplished that with far less than 50,000 dead Americans.
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