Singular point imo when Josh started regressing

[Motorin']

10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Kincaid had 4 catches.  And Josh will not suck like he did Monday.  Things will come together.

 

The Jets D is Josh's kryptonite. And there's only a few teams that can play that way. 

 

And I think one of the reasons that defense is so effective is bc he's lacking weapons to get open against it outside of Diggs.  

 

I like Kincaid. I was really hoping for Jordan Addison when he was still on the board at 23. I think that's the kind of route runner that he had when Bease was still at the top of his game that he needs to be able to overcome the best defenses in the league.

 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, finn said:

Beane and McDermott are blowing it. They have what could be a Hall of Fame QB, and they misusing him. His genius is the deep ball, improvisation, and running. But instead of a) protecting him; b) giving him deep weapons; and c) leveraging his running, which terrifies other teams, they're unilaterally disarming him and the team. The O-line an afterthought; NO top receivers besides Diggs; and no more run plays for him, with scrambling heavily discouraged. 

 

In short, they're collaborating with other teams to neuter this unicorn of a QB, a true generational talent used properly. What a travesty. 

Try again.  Teams right now know Josh is prone to going off schedule to throw the deep ball, so they are playing for it.  They are baiting him.  And last week he fell for it. 
 

Dorsey is calling different route trees and it’s up to Josh to read them.  When he takes the easier routes it will then force the D to come up more and open deeper routes.  We know Diggs can get deep as can Davis.  And they are trying to protect him from getting hurt by running too much.  There is a balance between freeing him up and not taking unnecessary chances, and was highlighted by him trying to jump over two guys 5 yards before the first down marker.  We all love Josh but he stunk Monday.  He’ll play better.

2 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

The Jets D is Josh's kryptonite. And there's only a few teams that can play that way. 

 

And I think one of the reasons that defense is so effective is bc he's lacking weapons to get open against it outside of Diggs.  

 

I like Kincaid. I was really hoping for Jordan Addison when he was still on the board at 23. I think that's the kind of route runner that he had when Bease was still at the top of his game that he needs to be able to overcome the best defenses in the league.

 

 

 

Kincaid can run the underneath stuff Beasley ran.  I think Sherfield can as well.  But Josh has to trust it.

[Eastport bills]

This is the mindless overreaction scenario to a really disappointing performance by a QB in the first game of the season. Congratulations, you uncovered the chronology of the breakdown of an All Pro QB, who went 13and 3 in a year where the team faced emotional challenges unlike any in the history of the league along with losing their best defensive player. Besides leading the league in TDs and winning the division the last 3 seasons, the guy is the unquestioned leader of the team. He deserves better than this foolishness served up by our unappreciative experts that try and cast doubt on a guy the turned this downtrodden franchise into winners. Maybe it was the risotto he ate after the Packers game that started his downward spiral. He did have a sour stomach for days after.

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

One thing I noticed rewatching the game is that even though our o-line played okay, it still wasn’t enough time for our clear-out receivers to keep the Jets defense honest.

 

Part of this is because we simply do not have very fast receivers. Gabe, Diggs and Sherfield all run around a 4.5. Kincaid around 4.7.

 

The longer it takes for the clear out receiver to get vertical, the longer the line has to hold.

If the clear out doesn’t get deep enough, he doesn’t make the safety (or zone CB) hesitate or gravitate toward him, and you get what we got on Monday night. Felt like defenders were everywhere because spacing was thrown off.

 

It feels like we either need to get some faster receivers who can get vertical quicker, or we need a line that can hold even longer.

We don’t have any Cheetah equivalents, but the receivers are plenty fast. Knox and Kincaid are mid 4.5 guys. Diggs, Sherfield, Harty, and Shakir are all around mid 4.4s. James Cook too if you want to include him. The issue isn’t speed, it’s delivering the ball on time to the receiver who has the biggest advantage based on that defensive look. That’s not happening right now. Spacing could also be an issue as you and Kurt Warner have pointed out. That is on Dorsey.

[PBF81]

21 minutes ago, FireChans said:

saying McD and Beane are bums is not as controversial as you make it out to be lmao

 

Well, "bums" isn't the word I used.  LOL  Either way, it's hardly a popular narrative here.  

 

As my suspicions go however and as I've stated numerous times, I expect it to increase in popularity during and after this season.  

 

McD is fine as a "cheerleading" coach, and this "winning culture" thing, LOL, ... honestly.  Any team that posts winning seasons regularly qualifies as having a "winning culture."  It's a ridiculously soft measure.  

 

If one measures coaches by having their teams fully prepared going into games, particularly playoff games, making half-time adjustments, out-strategizing their peers, etc., McD's not anywhere near the top.  It's rare to hear about how McD out X's-n-O's the opponents.  We rely on better talent and Allen to win games.  That's not particular to coaching.  

 

 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

2 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

Need new coaches around him, not yes men who don't want to hurt Joshy's feelings.

 

Tua and Hurts are not as good but they are winning because they run the play as called. Very efficient. Mahomes has the most creative plays and his guys are typically wide open. It starts with good coaching and the discipline to efficiently run the play. When you are running around in chaos then it's not a surprise that the outcome is often chaos!

Also starts with getting Josh some real help. Which is basically coaching and personnel. He needs a bigger stronger Oline he needs a real running back not this imposter we got in the backfield he also needs a real burner on the outside and more Wrs that can get Yac . Basically other then a few we got to change the whole offense. The players we must keep are Allen, Diggs, Kincaid and Torrence every one else pretty much can be replaced including Dawkins at LT. I’m not saying all this needs to be done in 1 off-season but definitely needs to get started soon. 

[Brandon]

12 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

32 picks in two years , most of any QB. It isn't one game.

 

That's true,  but it's also somewhat a function of throwing more passes than most other teams.  Matt Stafford had a higher interception percentage than Josh Allen in both 2021 and 2022 (Allen was 17th and 24th, respectively).  Stafford led the league in total INTs in 2021.  They won the Super Bowl that year. 

 

These days,   QBs are throwing so few interceptions that a few more than average is not necessarily the end of the world. 

[Motorin']

10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Try again.  Teams right now know Josh is prone to going off schedule to throw the deep ball, so they are playing for it.  They are baiting him.  And last week he fell for it. 
 

Dorsey is calling different route trees and it’s up to Josh to read them.  When he takes the easier routes it will then force the D to come up more and open deeper routes.  We know Diggs can get deep as can Davis.  And they are trying to protect him from getting hurt by running too much.  There is a balance between freeing him up and not taking unnecessary chances, and was highlighted by him trying to jump over two guys 5 yards before the first down marker.  We all love Josh but he stunk Monday.  He’ll play better.

Kincaid can run the underneath stuff Beasley ran.  I think Sherfield can as well.  But Josh has to trust it.

 

He's going to play better this week because the Raiders don't have as good of LB's, CB's and Safeties as the Jets. 

 

The most the Bills could have scored last week was 16-19 points, even if Allen doesn't make any of the hero ball throws.

 

 

[Brand J]

4 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

Also starts with getting Josh some real help. Which is basically coaching and personnel. He needs a bigger stronger Oline he needs a real running back not this imposter we got in the backfield he also needs a real burner on the outside and more Wrs that can get Yac . Basically other then a few we got to change the whole offense. The players we must keep are Allen, Diggs, Kincaid and Torrence every one else pretty much can be replaced including Dawkins at LT. I’m not saying all this needs to be done in 1 off-season but definitely needs to get started soon. 

I believe Josh will be fine in time, but if he needs an entire offensive overhaul he’s not the guy. That’s something you’d say about a Blake Bortles, not a supposed top 2/3 QB in the game. The personnel he has now is more than adequate to win the Super Bowl this year. Is his play caller more than adequate? Is the HC more than adequate? Is Josh himself disciplined enough to deliver a championship? That’s what we’ll find out in the coming months. 

[78thealltimegreat]

One thing I could never figure out you have a qb that loves to just air it out and play hero ball why have they never gotten a receiver who makes contested catches?

I mean Steff is terrific but he’s 6 foot in Gene Simmons Kiss platform shoes he’s not the type to outleap a DB much less the others guys.
 

[finn]

17 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Try again.  Teams right now know Josh is prone to going off schedule to throw the deep ball, so they are playing for it.  They are baiting him.  And last week he fell for it. 
 

Dorsey is calling different route trees and it’s up to Josh to read them.  When he takes the easier routes it will then force the D to come up more and open deeper routes.  We know Diggs can get deep as can Davis.  And they are trying to protect him from getting hurt by running too much.  There is a balance between freeing him up and not taking unnecessary chances, and was highlighted by him trying to jump over two guys 5 yards before the first down marker.  We all love Josh but he stunk Monday.  He’ll play better.

Kincaid can run the underneath stuff Beasley ran.  I think Sherfield can as well.  But Josh has to trust it.

I'm not saying he should only throw deep. I'm saying he can't throw deep (without turnovers or sacks) because Beane hasn't given him the weapons or the protection he needs to do so. As for running, he can't be as reckless as he has been, but designed runs and scrambles that end with a slide should remain a key part of his arsenal.

 

Teams can take away the deep ball because Beane has given Allen only one receiver and they can pressure Allen instantly because Beane has been fine with mediocrities like Brown and Saffold. And the don't have to worry about his incredibly effective scrambling now because McDermott has now taken that off the table, unilaterally. 

 

I stand by what I said: Beane and McDermott don't understand what they have in Allen. They're playing to his weaknesses and neglecting or even discouraging his strengths. And we're seeing the result: cognitive (and physical) dissonance. 

[zow2]

I don’t see regression as much as i see, every D coordinator has amassed enough footage of Josh Allen, his tendencies, his weaknesses, and they ARE slowing him down.  That’s why the greatest QBs of all time are who they are.  Those QBs have overcome all the game planning against them and disguises, etc.  Josh hasn’t really adjusted although he did OK with the short passes the other night. He’s struggling throwing it long.  

Right now Tua is the hot QB.  He will get figured out even with his stable of great WRs.  We will see if he can overcome it,  it’s always a chess match.

 

[Dablitzkrieg]

I am patiently waiting for Josh this Sunday to go off.  I'm so sick of this BS regression narrative 😒 

[Rigotz]

This is a great take. The most likely reason for his regression was definitely a random hit in the Packers game which made him lose confidence.

 

Anyone saying it was the torn UCL in his throwing arm is a fool.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

Knox and Kincaid are mid 4.5 guys.

 

Just FYI - Knox and Kincaid were both timed between 4.65 and 4.7. Fine for a Tight End, but certainly not clear-out quickness.

 

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

The issue isn’t speed, it’s delivering the ball on time to the receiver who has the biggest advantage based on that defensive look. That’s not happening right now. Spacing could also be an issue as you and Kurt Warner have pointed out. 

 

I agree with you, but I think it is a bit of both.

Here is an example of what I was mentioning earlier.

 

 

See this mess of 3 defenders on the Orange and Green routes? This happened because:
 

1) The orange route didn't get vertical enough, quickly enough, which put no pressure on the safety to cover the endzone, resulting in the safety coming down and being able to be a third defender. 

 

2) If you look at Allen, he is about to get smacked by a Jets defender. So we have a situation where Allen has to get rid of the ball, but the clear out receiver has cleared nothing out. He actually did the opposite - he made it a mess, and this is what ensures. It's amazing this actually turned out okay.

By the time the ball gets to the receiver, there are 4 defenders there. If you don't make a team defend every part of the field, they won't. And that results in a densely populated field to operate your offense.

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Einstein

[BananaB]

Last year in December we had to sign two WRs Josh was comfortable with because lack of trust in supporting cast. It was as an unusual situation but it highlighted problems. Beane just never did enough to fix it. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by BananaB

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

 

The Jets D is Josh's kryptonite. And there's only a few teams that can play that way. 

 

And I think one of the reasons that defense is so effective is bc he's lacking weapons to get open against it outside of Diggs.  

 

I like Kincaid. I was really hoping for Jordan Addison when he was still on the board at 23. I think that's the kind of route runner that he had when Bease was still at the top of his game that he needs to be able to overcome the best defenses in the league.

 

 

 

 

I agree with all of that.... but getting guys open wasn't the problem on Monday. There were plenty of open throws if Josh wanted to make them.

[Dr.Sack]

They should commit to running the ball early in the game and force safeties to cheat forward then unleash the play action pass or bootlegs to get Josh moving. 

[Motorin']

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree with all of that.... but getting guys open wasn't the problem on Monday. There were plenty of open throws if Josh wanted to make them.

 

No doubt the 2-3 terrible throws into double coverage and the panic double fumble lost the game. 

 

I haven't watched the All 22, but I'm not certain how open players other than Diggs were all game. 

 

To me it seemed like there were a lot of lazy routes from guys that didn't seem to think they were getting the ball. 

[Goin Breakdown]

This is all like a drought era family reunion.