Jordan Palmer on Allen - It’s more about the loss Brian Daboll, who Bellicheck says is elite

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, Chaos said:

You miss the point. I am responding to Josh needs to get used to a new OC every couple of years.  This is a formula for never having continuity on the offensive side of the ball. This is a competitive disadvantage compared to elite situations like Brady and Mahomes.    If we had a long term OC who is very good, that provides the continuity, which is fine. But the premise I responded to is rolling over OCs constantly.  Not sure what teams have won champions with a HC who disowns the offense and has new OCs every couple of years 

 

Brady had 5 different OC's between Tampa and NE.

This is just year two with Dorsey.  Who knows how long this lasts.  Maybe he's here for several years, maybe not.  We'll see.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Ok….Josh is the same under Dorsey as he was under Daboll.  My bad.  

 

If you truly believe that to be true, you shouldn’t spend so much time researching football, because it’s not helping very much.   

 

[deleted political crack]  Watch the games.  Eyes don’t lie.   Josh is visibly not the same.  The world sees it.

 

Oh, FFS.  I watch the games.  They tell me that at times under Daboll, Josh was playing like a wild man, throwing 3 INT per game and bailing out of the pocket/taking off or trying to hit the deep throw instead of taking what the D gave him.  Remember the phrase "Sugar High Josh Allen" coined by Kyle Brandt?  That nickname wasn't bestowed upon Josh because he was calm cool collected and taking what the defense gave him under Daboll, but now has become a different QB under Dorsey. 🙄

 

I think Dorsey and Allen should get a bit of a pass on the games where Josh was playing with a torn UCL last season and Josh explained that he had reverted to his college/1st 2 season overhand throwing motion that cost him accuracy, but perhaps YOU should watch the games - Josh had very good, calm and collected, taking what the offense gave him games against the Rams to open the season (though he did throw 2 picks), against KC, and IMO at the end of the season against Miami (not the playoff, the 2nd game) and NWE.

 

The ratio of the good games to bad games may differ - time will tell.  My point is, it's not that a totally different QB has emerged.  It's that the same guy who was termed "Sugar High Josh Allen" under Daboll, and that we thought had learnt better, has shown up.  It's not that Dorsey doesn't have short and intermediate options that are open schemed up for Josh; it's that  he's not taking them - that's not just my opinion, it appears to be the consensus of everyone who puts out all-22 content.

 

A person apparently can't win around here. If one just talks about what one sees with no examples, then it's "that's just your opinion, hit me with factsand examples".   I give examples, and your response is the Ad Hominem "watch the games, you shouldn't spend so much time researching football, it's not helping you much".  How about you put away your snark, and explain why, if Josh is now a different QB under Dorsey, he showed the same patterns before in the examples I gave?  Why did he get that Kyle Brandt moniker?

 

And Jesu, Man.  Unless the rules have changed drastically, there is absolutely no reason to drag politics into this by using it as an analogy. Plenty of places to talk politics on the Internet, including the PPP forum.  Talk Bills football here.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[GoBills808]

Palmer out of line here imo

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Oh, FFS.  I watch the games.  They tell me that at times under Daboll, Josh was playing like a wild man, throwing 3 INT per game and bailing out of the pocket/taking off.  Remember the phrase "Sugar High Josh Allen" coined by Kyle Brandt?  That nickname wasn't bestowed upon Josh because he was calm cool collected and taking what the defense gave him under Daboll, but now has become a different QB under Dorsey.

 

I think Dorsey and Allen should get a bit of a pass on the games where Josh was playing with a torn UCL last season, but perhaps YOU should watch the games - Josh had very good, calm and collected, taking what the offense gave him games against the Rams to open the season (though he did throw 2 picks), against KC, and IMO at the end of the season against Miami (not the playoff, the 2nd game) and NWE.

 

The ratio of the good games to bad games may differ - time will tell.  My point is, it's not that a totally different QB has emerged.  It's that the same guy who was termed "Sugar High Josh Allen" under Daboll, and that we thought had learnt better, has shown up.

 

A person apparently can't win around here. If one just talks about what one sees with no examples, then it's "that's just your opinion, hit me with facts".  Now I give examples, and your response is the Ad Hominem "watch the games, you shouldn't spend so much time researching football, it's not helping you much".  How about you put away your snark, and explain why, if Josh is now a different QB under Dorsey, he showed the same patterns before in the examples I gave? 

 

And Jesu, Man.  Unless the rules have changed drastically, there is absolutely no reason to drag politics into this by using it as an analogy. Plenty of places to talk politics on the Internet, including the PPP forum.  Talk Bills football here.

 

 

I’m not talking politics. I’m making a clear point.  You can find stats to that favor the sides of any debate.  
 

Josh IS more turnover prone since Daboll.  This is a fact.  He’s more turnover prone under Dorsey in his 5th and 6th years in the league than he was under Daboll as rookie and 2nd year player.  A rookie and 2nd year player most people said was a turnover waiting to happen.  He was reckless and everyone knew it.  Now he’s even more reckless…..and everyone knows it.  

You can bring up all the examples that you like.  Just like stats.  There are examples of several things that aren’t true. I have one example.  Look at his career turnover per game under Daboll, including the years he was considered a raw prospect that needed a LOT of work.  Now look at his turnovers per game as a 5th and 6th year all pro.  

 

so let me me ask you this.  Since halftime of the Green Bay game last season,  do you think Josh Allen has regressed or is he the same or better QB that we saw in 2020 and 21?  

 

27 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Brady had 5 different OC's between Tampa and NE.

This is just year two with Dorsey.  Who knows how long this lasts.  Maybe he's here for several years, maybe not.  We'll see.

Your talk about Brady and Belichick.  Who else?  
 

You don’t agree that it would be beneficial to have an offensive HC, one where the QB will be using the same system and have the same play calling year after year?  The same voice to lean on.  To have someone that has proven to be good at what they do year after year.  Instead of rolling the dice with new guys and new systems that, in many cases, haven’t even called played before. 

[BillsUberAlles]

Not sure the best coach in football would have his team look completely unprepared and inept in a season opener, allow a TD in all 3 phases and get steamrolled 40-0 at home.

 

But that's just me.

Edited September 14, 2023 by BillsUberAlles

[gjv]

I hope Josh Allen is not reading any of this S--t.

[PatsFanNH]

15 hours ago, Doc said:

Even with that 40-0 drubbing on opening night?

One game does not a season or a coach make.. after all good teams play poorly at times. There are many examples.

[Beck Water]

42 minutes ago, NewEra said:

You can bring up all the examples that you like.  Just like stats.  There are examples of several things that aren’t true. I have one example.  Look at his career turnover per game under Daboll, including the years he was considered a raw prospect that needed a LOT of work.  Now look at his turnovers per game as a 5th and 6th year all pro.  

 

so let me me ask you this.  Since halftime of the Green Bay game last season,  do you think Josh Allen has regressed or is he the same or better QB that we saw in 2020 and 21?  

 

 

OK, let's try this.

 

Here is a chart of Josh Allen's INT (1 2 or 3) thrown, per game played (regular season or playoff), in numerical order.

Without looking it up, pick the point where Dorsey took over.

 

 

I'll hang up and watch.  (click to get something you can see)

 

You're making a valid point about examples and stats being able to be used to make any point, but you're using it somewhat ironically.

 

Edit: Here's a chart of Josh Allen's turnovers (0,1,2,3,4) per game played, in case one wishes to advance the argument that looking at total turnovers, not just interceptions, presents a different picture.  Same challenge: pick the game #, without looking it up, where Dorsey took over.

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[PatsFanNH]

14 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

This is something that elite QB’s go through.  If you are a top offense, your coordinator isn’t going to stay long.

 

Allen might go through 5 OC’s by the time his career is over.  Most, if not all elite QB’s go through multiple coordinators. 

Hmm that may be true.. but Brady only had 3 his entire career I do believe and that’s over 20 years.. mind you him and Manning just needed the OC to get out of the way and let them do their thing after year 5. 

[Royale with Cheese]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I’m not talking politics. I’m making a clear point.  You can find stats to that favor the sides of any debate.  
 

Josh IS more turnover prone since Daboll.  This is a fact.  He’s more turnover prone under Dorsey in his 5th and 6th years in the league than he was under Daboll as rookie and 2nd year player.  A rookie and 2nd year player most people said was a turnover waiting to happen.  He was reckless and everyone knew it.  Now he’s even more reckless…..and everyone knows it.  

You can bring up all the examples that you like.  Just like stats.  There are examples of several things that aren’t true. I have one example.  Look at his career turnover per game under Daboll, including the years he was considered a raw prospect that needed a LOT of work.  Now look at his turnovers per game as a 5th and 6th year all pro.  

 

so let me me ask you this.  Since halftime of the Green Bay game last season,  do you think Josh Allen has regressed or is he the same or better QB that we saw in 2020 and 21?  

 

Your talk about Brady and Belichick.  Who else?  
 

You don’t agree that it would be beneficial to have an offensive HC, one where the QB will be using the same system and have the same play calling year after year?  The same voice to lean on.  To have someone that has proven to be good at what they do year after year.  Instead of rolling the dice with new guys and new systems that, in many cases, haven’t even called played before. 

 

I think it would be beneficial.  I wished we had that.  I just think that teams are more impatient with HC's and there will be consistent openings for the good OC's to take.

If everything goes right, then our OC's will be getting HC interviews.  We probably have to get used to it.

[Ray Finkel]

11 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

If Daboll gets fired he won't be coming back unless it's as head coach. There were murmurs that him and McDermott weren't getting along and he was out of here even if he didn't get a head coaching job. But if both teams keep playing like they did this past weekend, it could be a possibility that both are looking for new jobs (though highly unlikely as both have earned some leeway).

Those murmurs were fact.  You are spot on.

[appoo]

This is wildly reductive.  If anything the Steelers Wk1 Game was worse than the MNF game. 

 

 

A game where the Bills were incapable of protecting Allen, he threw the ball 51 freakin times in a low scoring game, and your RB who avg 6.5 YPR only got 11 rushes. 

 

Like, lose me with Brian Daboll Master God of Football and this is why Josh Allen is struggling now

Edited September 14, 2023 by appoo

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

Hmm that may be true.. but Brady only had 3 his entire career I do believe and that’s over 20 years.. mind you him and Manning just needed the OC to get out of the way and let them do their thing after year 5. 

 

I counted Charlie Weiss, Bill O'Brien, Brian Daboll and Josh McDaniels for NE....Byron Leftwich in TB.

 

Yes, I would prefer continuity.  See my post above.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[PatsFanNH]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I counted Charlie Weiss, Bill O'Brien, Brian Daboll and Josh McDaniels for NE....Byron Leftwich in TB.

 

Yes, I would prefer continuity.  See my post above.

Daboll was never a OC here. I forgot Weiss lol the first one I forgot lol.

 

I have a question, shouldn’t Allen be able to run the O himself after 6 years? Or at least be able to overcome some head scratching play calls? 

[Low Positive]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I counted Charlie Weiss, Bill O'Brien, Brian Daboll and Josh McDaniels for NE....Byron Leftwich in TB.

 

Yes, I would prefer continuity.  See my post above.

Daboll was never OC in New England. He had various position coach positions there. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, PatsFanNH said:

Daboll was never a OC here. I forgot Weiss lol the first one I forgot lol.

 

I have a question, shouldn’t Allen be able to run the O himself after 6 years? Or at least be able to overcome some head scratching play calls? 

He does, look at Bills record last 6 year

 

FOH w this

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, PatsFanNH said:

Daboll was never a OC here. I forgot Weiss lol the first one I forgot lol.

 

I have a question, shouldn’t Allen be able to run the O himself after 6 years? Or at least be able to overcome some head scratching play calls? 

 

I'm sure Allen runs it in some way.  I would think you would give your QB some autonomy.  

 

And yes to the second part of the question.

[Toyo321]

15 hours ago, Doc said:

Even with that 40-0 drubbing on opening night?

I hate to say it but although as much as I hate Dallas.  Dallas had probably the best Defensive front roster in the league this year and they are more than just due.

 

We will see how bad they demolish the Jets.  And I did say demolish.  Dallas is going to do this to a lot of teams this year.

 

Once again I hate them with a passion, and what happened to the Giants,  is going to happen to other teams this year too.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Toyo321

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK, let's try this.

 

Here is a chart of Josh Allen's INT (1 2 or 3) thrown, per game played (regular season or playoff), in numerical order.

Without looking it up, pick the point where Dorsey took over.

 

 

I'll hang up and listen.

 

You're making a valid point about examples and stats being able to be used to make any point, but you're using it somewhat ironically.

 

 

 

 

Ignore my question and post artwork.  I’ll ask again.  Since halftime of the Green Bay game last season,  do you think Josh Allen has regressed, improved or is he the same  QB that we saw in 2020 and 21?  

 

Josh Allen has averaged .33 turnovers per game in the playoffs under Daboll.  He had 2 turnovers in 6 games.

 

Under Dorsey, he has 4 turnovers in 2 playoff games.  2 per game….. twice as many turnovers in one third of the games.  
 

He has 21 turnovers in his last 13 games.  The worst stretch of his career.  1.6 per game.  

 

There’s a reason his bad play is trending on social media, YT and message boards.  It’s because his play has clearly regressed over the last 13 games.   This isn’t just my opinion.  This is the worlds opinion.  But link charts and find the stats that support your argument. I’ll link stats to support

mine.  
 

I’m not saying that Ken Dorsey is the reason he’s regressed.  I’m not saying he can’t turn things around under Dorsey.  My point in all of this is that he has regressed over the last 13 games……and if you don’t it see this after watching every one of those 13 games (multiple times I’m sure) than you don’t know much about QB play.  His decision making and his pocket presence have both taken a noticeable turn for the worse.  
 

But in reality, I’m sure you agree that he’s gotten worse over the last 13 games and are just compiling stats simply because the stats exist.  

21 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I think it would be beneficial.  I wished we had that.  I just think that teams are more impatient with HC's and there will be consistent openings for the good OC's to take.

If everything goes right, then our OC's will be getting HC interviews.  We probably have to get used to it.

I hear ya.  I like McD.  Idk if he’s the guy to get us a Lombardi but we could definitely do much worse.  If this year doesn’t end well, I’d give Ben Johnson (and possibly others) a chance to get in 17s ear and hopefully flip the switch. 

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK, let's try this.

 

Here is a chart of Josh Allen's INT (1 2 or 3) thrown, per game played (regular season or playoff), in numerical order.

Without looking it up, pick the point where Dorsey took over.

 

 

I'll hang up and listen.

 

You're making a valid point about examples and stats being able to be used to make any point, but you're using it somewhat ironically.

 

 

 

I don't think that graph particularly helps your case @Beck Water. It shows Josh has had 7 multiple INT games in the 20 Dorsey has been OC. To count back the previous 7 times that he threw multiple picks is 51 games and takes you to the Pats meltdown at the start of his second season. 

 

Now I will caveat that point with I don't think all of this on Dorsey or that Dorsey is terrible. I have some concerns over him but I don't think Monday was on him. I don't think that the majority of the blame for Josh's dip since the middle of last year belongs with Dorsey either, though I do think there are schematic things that we need to look at and focus on. I do think at times he has lacked a bit of creativity and his offense is a bit bland. That said, nor is Brian Daboll a genius. I do think he is a very good OC and he got way too much stick when he was here... but this isn't as simple as Daboll = good; Dorsey = bad. There is a lot more too it and I think there is some revisionist history going on here.