Jordan Palmer on Allen - It’s more about the loss Brian Daboll, who Bellicheck says is elite

[Royale with Cheese]

27 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

This is why you want the HC to be the de facto OC if you have an elite QB. I wish Doug Pederson was coaching this team.

 

I'm not sure I believe in this.  Belicheck was not the de factor OC with Brady.  Tomlin wasn't the de facto OC when Big Ben was there.  John Harbaugh isn't the de facto OC with Jackson.  

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

10 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Yeah I read an article on this today.  Thats a pretty big complement from Belichick if he actually said that.  I do believe Daboll is really smart and is a good coach. 

 

Reminds me of the comment made might have been 30 or 40 years ago by Bum Phillips. He was talking about Don Shula (when he was in his prime coaching years)

 

Bum said: " He can take his guys and beat your guys or take your guys and beat his guys!"

[78thealltimegreat]

I would find this a lot more credible if he wasn’t saying similar things about Joe Judge

 

https://www.giants.com/news/joe-judge-bill-belichick-new-england-patriots-joint-practices-preseason-finale

[McBean]

Source told me this last night who is good friends with Robert Saleh…

 

Saleh said quote, “Buffalos offense is so vanilla now. They are easy to game plan. Ken Dorsey is their major problem at the moment. No schemes, nothing fancy, very vanilla.”

 

This is a 100% fact. I don’t come on here to lie. Believe it or not but shook me when I heard this because ultimately Dorsey will get the ax end of year, not McDermott

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I'm not sure I believe in this.  Belicheck was not the de factor OC with Brady.  Tomlin wasn't the de facto OC when Big Ben was there.  John Harbaugh isn't the de facto OC with Jackson.  

 

but. did they not have pretty damn good OC's to go along with those mentioned HC's. I realize the deal is having an Offensive mind HC the answer to an elite QB and I believe, yes, it would be but if it is a Defensive mind HC, like those mentioned, they at least had a legit play caller to go with the elite QB whereas McD, does not.

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, pocoboy said:

That's been my inherent belief all along, that Daboll was more effective at extracting the potential out of the offensive playbook. The devil is in the details, you can just slap a playbook together with this route tree and that zone block scheme...but there are going to be ways to optimize the effectiveness of those plays. For example:

• The receiver who is supposed to tie up Whitehead's attention long enough to get Diggs open on that post (Sherfield?)
• Gabe running an unassuming flag route that gets jumped.
• Late last season, there was a play where Dawson made a head fake which totally created the room necessary to fit the ball in on a TD.

My contention is that some of Daboll's keys are still remembered & run - Diggs is probably first and foremost. But with new receivers, if they aren't being shown those gritty details that turn a batted down ball (or in Monday night's cases all too often, an INT) into a tight-window completion, it's gonna be a whole lot tougher for this offense to succeed.

 

I think there's some truth to that. But also in Allen's best season the talent was much better. Diggs, Beasley's best season as a pro, a still competent Jon Brown, then Davis, Knox and McKenzie.

 

Not to mention one of D Williams best seasons at RT. In fact, that was the one season in Allen's career that he had average or above average play at RT...

 

So I think it's a talent issue as much as a fundamentals issue. 

 

Honestly, in the pre-game show they had a close up of Allen taking a shotgun snap, his eyes weren't looking at the ball at all. He was staring down field and caught the ball with his peripheral vision. I said to myself, that's going to cost him... and it literally did, he didn't look the ball all the way in on the fumble play. He peaked at Cook who he was going to ha d it off too before he had it secured. 

 

He was panicked and his mind was racing faster than his body, and certainly too fast to actually be aware of the situation. 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Motorin'

[Mr. WEO]

lol "best coach in football".

 

 

In how many years??

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

25 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

but. did they not have pretty damn good OC's to go along with those mentioned HC's. I realize the deal is having an Offensive mind HC the answer to an elite QB and I believe, yes, it would be but if it is a Defensive mind HC, like those mentioned, they at least had a legit play caller to go with the elite QB whereas McD, does not.

 

The only thing we have right now to go by is week 1 and the game plan was fine.  Allen was the predominant issue.

[NewEra]

27 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I'm not sure I believe in this.  Belicheck was not the de factor OC with Brady.  Tomlin wasn't the de facto OC when Big Ben was there.  John Harbaugh isn't the de facto OC with Jackson.  

 

Nothing is 💯…… 

 

If I had an elite qb, I’d much rather have an offensive head coach.  It allows him to stay in the same system with the same voice and football mind mentoring him.  Josh Allen has gotten worse since the voice in his ear left.  That’s clear to me right now.  He can still turn it around, but Daboll leaving has hurt Josh to date. 
 

Learning and mastering one good offensive system >>>> having to learn multiple systems and possibly switching systems every couple years.

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

35 minutes ago, McBean said:

Source told me this last night who is good friends with Robert Saleh…

 

Saleh said quote, “Buffalos offense is so vanilla now. They are easy to game plan. Ken Dorsey is their major problem at the moment. No schemes, nothing fancy, very vanilla.”

 

This is a 100% fact. I don’t come on here to lie. Believe it or not but shook me when I heard this because ultimately Dorsey will get the ax end of year, not McDermott

 

Hmmmmm.....

 

So lets take a look at this offense and the complaints the last two years.

• Terrible OC
• Terrible HC
• Terrible GM
• Vanilla offensive game plan
• Fat, out of shape and overrated left tackle.
• Worst Right tackle in the NFL.
• Center is one concussion away from retiring and isn't very good.
• LG is a JAG
• Only 1 good WR
• No speed at WR
• Terrible #2 WR who can't catch
• No true #1 back
• Josh Allen numerous turnovers and playing hero ball.

3rd in scoring last year.  

 

I guess we have unseen forces allowing us to score.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[Heavy Kevi]

Josh just needs a good OC, not even a great one...

 

But that OC needs to be able to hold Josh accountable. That's what he's missing right now. Discipline. 

 

He's all over the place, this is wild hero-ball josh. We need coaching that can reign him in.

 

I also agree his relationship with Dorsey is probably too casual. 

[NewEra]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

The only thing we have right now to go by is week 1 and the game plan was fine.  Allen was the predominant issue.

His decision making was the predominant issue.  Part of an OCs job to limit those QB mistakes.  
 

case and point-

Daniel Jones turnover per game without Daboll: 1.77, 1.14, .91

 

With Daboll:  .5

   
 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

His decision making was the predominant issue.  Part of an OCs job to limit those QB mistakes.  
 

case and point-

Daniel Jones turnover per game without Daboll: 1.77, 1.14, .91

 

With Daboll:  .5

   
 

 

Allen's career high in INT's was Daboll's last year with 15.  Allen also fumbled the ball 39 times in 5 years with Daboll.

 

 

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Hmmmmm.....

 

So lets take a look at this offense and the complaints the last two years.

• Terrible OC
• Terrible HC
• Terrible GM
• Vanilla offensive game plan
• Fat, out of shape and overrated left tackle.
• Worst Right tackle in the NFL.
• Center is one concussion away from retiring and isn't very good.
• LG is a JAG
• Only 1 good WR
• No speed at WR
• Terrible #2 WR who can't catch
• No true #1 back
• Josh Allen numerous turnovers and playing hero ball.

3rd in scoring last year.  

 

I guess we have unseen forces allowing us to score.

Allen and Diggs are the best pitch and catch duo in the league. That’s what happens when you have a pair like that.  You score.

 

I’m not saying Dorsey isn’t worthy (although I might be in a few weeks).   I just think our scoring has much more to do with Allen/Diggs than Dorsey’s concepts, scheme, play calling. 

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Allen's career high in INT's was Daboll's last year with 15.  Allen also fumbled the ball 39 times in 5 years with Daboll.

 

 

Right…. But let’s not act like the current Josh allen is the same josh allen we saw under Daboll

[Beck Water]

11 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

“It’s less about Ken Dorsey & what he isn’t. It’s more about Brian Daboll. I think a few years from now we’ll all say that’s the best coach in football…”

 

“(Bill Belichick) made a comment to me once & we were talking about Daboll and he said ‘Daboll’s one of the only coaches I’ve ever been around that can be an elite offensive coordinator, an elite defensive coordinator & an elite special teams coordinator. He understands football at that level.’”

 

“When you lose that, you aren’t just gonna replace it.”

 

“What Josh benefited from with Daboll was not just the play calling but learning the game… learning the game from who Bill Belichick and a lot of other people think is one of the smarter dudes in the league at teaching the position”.

 

 

Edit - I can't find the clip from Cowturd right now

 

I believe Daboll is a very good football coach. Maybe a very very good football coach. I also believe that he developed a strong mentoring relationship with Josh.  I think that took time, though - notably, until after game 4 of the 2019 season, a game in which Josh had 3 INT and a fumble, and Daboll was seen screaming at Josh on the sidelines.  Josh has said he had meetings with McDermott and Beane after that game and made promises, and it was a turning point in his career.  Maybe Josh needs another set of meetings and to renew his promises.

 

With regard to what Belicheck said....let's just look at what Belicheck has actually DONE vs anything he's said, with regard to Brian Daboll.

 

Consider a few of Belicheck's other strong coaching endorsements.  He recommended the elite Josh McDaniel as HC in Denver, so much that McDaniel was given roster control.  He failed, badly.  He also failed as OC with the St Louis Rams - a QB in Sam Bradford who had thrown 18 TD and 15 INT and shown promise the previous year under Pat Shurmer (barely missed playoffs), under McDaniel threw 6 TD and 6 INT and basically looked totally incapable as a QB.  The following year under Brian Schottenheimer, Bradford looked competent again and improved from his rookie season, 21 TD 13 INT and again in 2013.  Time Will Tell what McDaniel can do in Vegas, but in 2022 it was 6-11 with a team that was 8-8, 10-7 the previous 2 years.

 

In 2018, Belicheck recommended his DC, Matt Patricia, as HC of the Lions.  Patricia failed.  In 2018, the elite and uniformly brilliant Daboll was available and could presumably have been pushed as a HC candidate there.

In 2020, Belicheck recommended his ST coach Joe Judge (who he presumably thought could be an effective HC with ability to understand offensive and defensive coaching) to be HC of the Giants.  He failed.

So maybe Belicheck's judgement of what his former coaching assistants can do, is a bit falliable, eh?

 

What Belicheck didn't do?  Belicheck, from 2002 to 2006 and again from 2013 to 2016, give the Elite Brian Daboll an opportunity to be a coordinator for him.  In 2006, after moving on from Charlie Weis in 2004 and having the position open a year, he gave Josh McDaniel the nod.  So Daboll moved on and took crap OC positions.  When Daboll came back to the Pats in 2011 and Bill OBrien left after the season, again it was Josh McDaniel who got the nod as OC and Matt Patricia as DC. 

 

In 2018, after Patricia left, Belicheck could have recruited the elite defensive coordinator Brian Daboll to come back to NE.  Instead Daboll came to the Bills as OC.

 

So....Bill Belicheck is without question an elite football mind and a HOF head coach.  But perhaps one ought to take what he says in public about his former assistants with a large salt shaker? 

 

And again, I'm not trying to dis on Daboll.  But when Daboll was here as OC of the Bills, we all saw weird stuff at times.  The run play design in 2018.  The inability to craft a run game that would work with the personnel the Bills had and that had worked the previous year 2019  (pin and pull blocking etc) in 2020 and 2021.  (this was meticulously charted out by Cover1 in case anyone cares)

Maybe the best known example would be the Steelers season opener in 2021.  Score 20-10 Pittsburgh.  Context is that Daboll came out with 5 wide sets and a plan to rely on the intermediate passing game.  The Steelers D came out with an effective plan to blanket the middle of the field and prevent that while bringing pressure with 4 or even 3.  Daboll seemed to have no effective counter drawn up.  Then, in the 4th Q., 3rd and 5 on the Pittsburgh 5, Daboll called a trick play to lateral the ball to Singletary, resulting in a loss of 2 yards and a fumble (OOB).  It was a copy of a play that had been successfully used elsewhere, BUT CRITICALLY, WITHOUT THE TE MOTION IN TIGHT that faked out the D and made it effective.  McDermott was clear after the game that as a DC, he felt that was a play that gave the Bills no chance to convert.

 

Anyway, I hope Daboll gets the Giants season turned around.  And I think Daboll showed great promise his first year as HC.  But maybe we ought to hold off a second on canonizing Saint Daboll based on the words of Bill Belicheck - especially on the hearsay of Jordon Palmer, whose bread is perhaps buttered a bit on being a Josh Allen Apologist.  (Without Josh, no way does he have the success he's had or media interest)

Dorsey is the current OC of the Bills because Josh Allen fought for him.  If Josh Allen isn't as "buttoned up" because he's refusing to be coached by Dorsey and by Joe Judge, he needs to go check himself because he's going to get them both fired and his career trajectory will mirror Carson Wentz PDQ

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[teef]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

His decision making was the predominant issue.  Part of an OCs job to limit those QB mistakes.  
 

case and point-

Daniel Jones turnover per game without Daboll: 1.77, 1.14, .91

 

With Daboll:  .5

   
 

i do agree with the idea, but allen is such a different qb than jones.  i'll always expect some wonky ints with allen, but he was sloppy over all.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Well if Josh needs the same OC-QB Coach for the duration of his career that's not reality. 

 

Such a goofy take. 

[LABILLBACKER]

51 minutes ago, McBean said:

Source told me this last night who is good friends with Robert Saleh…

 

Saleh said quote, “Buffalos offense is so vanilla now. They are easy to game plan. Ken Dorsey is their major problem at the moment. No schemes, nothing fancy, very vanilla.”

 

This is a 100% fact. I don’t come on here to lie. Believe it or not but shook me when I heard this because ultimately Dorsey will get the ax end of year, not McDermott

There's nothing clever or tactical about Dorsey's offense.  At least Daboll had a few wrinkles to throw at people.  And you wonder why Josh has to go off script so often.  Monday night was a full blown Allen crapfest, but Dorsey factors in too.

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, teef said:

i do agree with the idea, but allen is such a different qb than jones.  i'll always expect some wonky ints with allen, but he was sloppy over all.

For sure.  My point is- it’s better to have one consistent great mind whispering in the QBs ear for his career than having several voices, systems, concepts and verbiage.  Possibly changing every 2-3 years.  
 

How many top tier QBs are being coached head coaches that weren’t OCs?   Justin Herbert and Lamar. 1 playoff win between them.

 

Again…..there’s more than one way to skin a  cat….. and there’s clearly a best way to skin one.  

5 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Well if Josh needs the same OC-QB Coach for the duration of his career that's not reality. 

 

Such a goofy take. 

Who is saying he “needs”?  It helps.  Do you think Mahomes would be the same without reid?  

[teef]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

For sure.  My point is- it’s better to have one consistent great mind whispering in the QBs ear for his career than having several voices, systems, concepts and verbiage.  Possibly changing every 2-3 years.  
 

How many top tier QBs are being coached head coaches that weren’t OCs?   Justin Herbert and Lamar. 1 playoff win between them.

 

Again…..there’s more than one way to skin a  cat….. and there’s clearly a best way to skin one.  

i can't disagree with this.  i'm not taking the blame off coaching at all either, but a lot of those mistakes on monday were execution, which i don't know why it's so hard for some to admit, (not you).