Update: All -22 stuff Joe Marino Locked on Bills, Now Cover 1 w/ play breakdowns

[dpberr]

Quite the solid podcast. I enjoyed that.

[Royale with Cheese]

10 minutes ago, BeavercreekBillsFan said:

The 49ers are already a juggernaut right now without josh. I mention it all the time on this board because I’m not over the CMC trade and beane not getting him. That said. Shanahan doesn’t really want a guy like Josh. Sure he’s a fun toy but he would drive KS nuts. He wants a robot back there to execute his offense, that’s not josh. Josh is best off script. KS draws up the best scripts in the league. He’s unmatched. I get your point though. 

Shanahan traded multiple first round picks for Trey Lance who isn’t a robot.

[78thealltimegreat]

8 minutes ago, BeavercreekBillsFan said:

The 49ers are already a juggernaut right now without josh. I mention it all the time on this board because I’m not over the CMC trade and beane not getting him. That said. Shanahan doesn’t really want a guy like Josh. Sure he’s a fun toy but he would drive KS nuts. He wants a robot back there to execute his offense, that’s not josh. Josh is best off script. KS draws up the best scripts in the league. He’s unmatched. I get your point though. 

That’s what I fear Beaver some team says the Bills mismanaged this guy and trades for him and he goes lights out elsewhere then we are stuck waiting for hockey season for another 3 years while we wait for a young QB to “mature”. Justin Fields is proof also there isn’t that famous a number 1 receiver jump in a QBs 3rd year either. 
If not Shannahan can you imagine Sean Mcvay getting his hands on Allen as the Rams will do wacky things like that once Matt Stafford is done in a  year or two. 

[finn]

10 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

One other change I might want to see is bringing the OC down to the field to get more face-to-face time and conversation between Dorsey and Allen. 

 

Isn't this kind of problem--a QB who's lost his way--one of the key responsibilities of a QB coach? I mean, what is more important? If he's biding his time waiting for another OC job, having potentially the best QB in NFL history melt down on his watch isn't what he wants on his resume. 

 

Short-term solution for McDermott: Fire the useless Brady and bring in a coach Allen will learn from, not some ambitious wannabe.

[corta765]

11 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

This is exactly what it looked like to me.

 

Unprofessional and immature.

 

Peoples’ livelihoods are at stake.  How is Josh gonna feel when his buddy the OC is canned because of him?  
 

Dude needs to GROW THE F UP already.

 

That sentiment is what pretty much everyone including national media has said. Just because you have this incredible ability to do wonders does not mean you can or should all the time, there is a level of moderation and live to fight another day. Up 13-3 with the Jets doing nothing on offense Allen at no point needed to go superman. I really hope this is the grand lesson for good for him because if he can eliminate the major brain farts he will have more seasons like 2020 vs the last two which he still was incredibly good but had games like last night.

[Franco_92]

5 hours ago, McDeerInTheHeadlights said:

I'm not buying the it's pretty much all on Josh narrative.

 

For instance, I do agree, to address one of the concerns, that he may give up on standing in the pocket a little longer a bit too often, but I don't remember Brady having his RT pushed into his lap in such an embarrassing fashion in half a second either. Once you lose confidence in some of your guys, it's hard to revert the process. It becomes second nature.

 

Josh has his own faults, but changes around him have to happen, in the form of personnel, play calling, or drastic performance improvement, possibly all of the above, to get him back in a confort zone.

There are many games where pressure flustered Brady into bad performances. The Jets might be a historically good defense. It happens. Not absolving Spencer but that was not some uniquely awful line allen played behind - in fact his pressure rate was low relative to the average for week 1 QBs. He was horrible

 

33 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Shanahan traded multiple first round picks for Trey Lance who isn’t a robot.

Kinda proves his point. Dude wanted nothing to do with him ultimately and dumped him for nothing just 2 years later

[The Frankish Reich]

11 hours ago, buffblue said:

I won't lie, I'm a little concerned about him bouncing back even against a mediocre Raiders defense at home

I watched the Raiders D against the Broncos. And while the Broncos moved the ball effectively, Maxx Crosby was all over the place, a disruptive force on the order of Nick Bosa or prime JJ Watt.

And I suspect he'll be lined up right outside Spencer Brown. 

Knox, Gilliam (probably should've been Kendall Blanton?): help!

[Royale with Cheese]

13 minutes ago, arcane said:

Kinda proves his point. Dude wanted nothing to do with him ultimately and dumped him for nothing just 2 years later

 

I was focusing on the point that Shanahan wanted that and why he invested so highly in Lance.  After he got Lance, he saw he was terrible and got rid of him,.

Shanahan would salivate over Allen IMO.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[starrymessenger]

24 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I was focusing on the point that Shanahan wanted that and why he invested so highly in Lance.  After he got Lance, he saw he was terrible and got rid of him,.

Shanahan would salivate over Allen IMO.

He would have to break him of bad habits. When Josh plays like he did on Monday he looks a whole lot like Trey. Neither one of them can see that safety in coverage. Only question becomes whether the pass is good enough to be intercepted.

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

I saw in the sack highlights where the Jets brought pressure and the pocket was collapsing, but it never caved in on him. Instead, Josh tried to take off running and caused the sack himself. I’m reminded that I see the same frenetic pocket collapsing all around Brady and Mahomes, but neither of those dudes panic like Josh. It’s like they know the rush won’t get to them in time, so they stand tall in there and make the throw. When there are avenues to escape - and there weren’t for Josh - that’s when you’ll see Mahomes do his loopty loops in the backfield until someone springs free.
 

Josh needs to become MUCH better in manipulating the pocket. That starts with having more trust in his OL, that even though things are collapsing all around him, it’s best to stand in there and make the throw because you’re not going to escape most of the time. Who knows how many potentially big plays were left on the table because he ran himself into a sack.

 

OK, now I got to say something to this.

 

First of all, Mahomes early in his career through the Super Bowl loss to Tampa, would 1) take incredibly deep drops which got deeper when pressured 2) would, in fact, not stay calm in a pocket, but bail out and run.  This was also evident during the AFC Championship loss to the Bengals in 2021.  Containing Mahomes successfully from breaking out and running was also, in fact, a necessary and important part of the Bills Division round game plan which got them punts and FG and kept them in the game.  And, by the way, in Week 8 of the 2021 season, the Chiefs were 4-4 - yes, there were problems with Mahomes and the passing offense.  

 

Staying in the pocket to throw was something Mahomes improved at last season, resulting in a 2nd Superbowl win - but let's not write as though that's who he's been as a QB from the start.  Recency bias there.

 

Second of all, while Brady would at times stand tall in the pocket, Brady spent his entire career in an offense designed off the short, quick pass with YAC.  Fact: since 2018 when breakdowns of completed air yards vs yards after catch became available on free sites like pro-football reference, Brady had LOWER CAY than YAC all but 1 year (2020) - and in 2020, it was 4.6 air yards to 4.5 yards after catch.  So you're talking about a totally different play design and reads, where the idea is to get the ball out quickly for a short completion.  Most of his career, Brady knew the pressure wouldn't get to him in time because the ball would be long gone.

 

Like it or not, that's a fundamentally different offensive play design than the deep-to-shallow reads designed into our offense that Josh is trying to buy time to execute.  And yes, Josh stands in the pocket sometimes, too.

 

So maybe chill with the "see the same frenetic pocket collapsing all around Brady and Mahomes but neither of those dudes panic like Josh".  No, that's not quite what you've seen.

 

 

3 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

He would have to break him of bad habits. When Josh plays like he did on Monday he looks a whole lot like Trey. Neither one of them can see that safety in coverage. Only question becomes whether the pass is good enough to be intercepted.

 

I really think Orlovsky had the Word on OBD.  He goes over why QB throw INT, and points out that Josh very well knows the safety is back there.  He just has the "arm arrogance" to think he can get that throw in there anyway.  And maybe he would, if he weren't being hit just after the ball was released.  But being hit like that was part of the way the game was going against that fierce Jets DL.

 

And yes, while I disagree with you that Josh can't see the safety in coverage (I think Orlovsky is correct: he can, he just gets in a mindset where he thinks he can make the throw anyway), you are correct that Josh has developed some bad habits that need to be altered.

[starrymessenger]

5 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK, now I got to say something to this.

 

First of all, Mahomes early in his career through the Super Bowl loss to Tampa, would 1) take incredibly deep drops which got deeper when pressured 2) would, in fact, not stay calm in a pocket, but bail out and run.  This was also evident during the AFC Championship loss to the Bengals in 2021.  Containing Mahomes successfully from breaking out and running was also, in fact, a necessary and important part of the Bills Division round game plan which got them punts and FG and kept them in the game.  And, by the way, in Week 8 of the 2021 season, the Chiefs were 4-4 - yes, there were problems with Mahomes and the passing offense.  

 

Staying in the pocket to throw was something Mahomes improved at last season, resulting in a 2nd Superbowl win - but let's not write as though that's who he's been as a QB from the start.  Recency bias there.

 

Second of all, while Brady would at times stand tall in the pocket, Brady spent his entire career in an offense designed off the short, quick pass with YAC.  Fact: since 2018 when breakdowns of completed air yards vs yards after catch became available on free sites like pro-football reference, Brady had LOWER CAY than YAC all but 1 year (2020) - and in 2020, it was 4.6 air yards to 4.5 yards after catch.  So you're talking about a totally different play design and reads, where the idea is to get the ball out quickly for a short completion.  Most of his career, Brady knew the pressure wouldn't get to him in time because the ball would be long gone.

 

Like it or not, that's a fundamentally different offensive play design than the deep-to-shallow reads designed into our offense that Josh is trying to buy time to execute.  And yes, Josh stands in the pocket sometimes, too.

 

So maybe chill with the "see the same frenetic pocket collapsing all around Brady and Mahomes but neither of those dudes panic like Josh".  No, that's not quite what you've seen.

 

 

 

I really think Orlovsky had the Word on OBD.  He goes over why QB throw INT, and points out that Josh very well knows the safety is back there.  He just has the "arm arrogance" to think he can get that throw in there anyway.  And maybe he would, if he weren't being hit just after the ball was released.  But being hit like that was part of the way the game was going against that fierce Jets DL.

 

And yes, while I disagree with you that Josh can't see the safety in coverage (I think Orlovsky is correct: he can, he just gets in a mindset where he thinks he can make the throw anyway), you are correct that Josh has developed some bad habits that need to be altered.

I think you are probably right. More arm arrogance than anything else.

[davspo]

This is Josh Allen.  He will NEVER change.  This is year 6.  He is still running recklessly, making throws down field that are merely expressions of hope, and not trusting his oline.  The more I see the more I am coming to the understanding that the oline is not as bad as we think, but that Josh runs around before he needs to making it impossible for the linemen to keep their blocks.  People don't change.  Athletes do not change after 6 years in the pros.  

 

For better or worse he is ours.  Still a top tier qb and better than anything we have had since Jim Kelly.  A new OC will not help.  You can't control this guy, we just have to live with it.  

[ngbills]

12 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Focused on themes,

 

Josh Allen was the reason you lost the game.

The easy button throws were there all game; took them some times

times he said no were inexplicable

it's even more frustrating when you study the tape; it's worse than you thought

I watched an extremely immature QB that didn't run the offense well

you become completely aware of the turn-downs, the things he said no to

eyes were all over the place, situational awareness was lacking - forcing throws, not embracing the game script

it was 17 that was the problem

 

Lots of things are good once we move past the bad....

He looked like the kid who showed up to the game without practicing, watching tape, reading scouting reports, etc. Either he was overhyped and lost his mind, was saying f you to the coaches im doing my think, or was just unprepared because he has other stuff going on. 

4 minutes ago, davspo said:

This is Josh Allen.  He will NEVER change.  This is year 6.  He is still running recklessly, making throws down field that are merely expressions of hope, and not trusting his oline.  The more I see the more I am coming to the understanding that the oline is not as bad as we think, but that Josh runs around before he needs to making it impossible for the linemen to keep their blocks.  People don't change.  Athletes do not change after 6 years in the pros.  

 

For better or worse he is ours.  Still a top tier qb and better than anything we have had since Jim Kelly.  A new OC will not help.  You can't control this guy, we just have to live with it.  

It’s not that extreme. Something is up if you look at the recent evidence. I think it’s coaching. 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

3 hours ago, SectionC3 said:

There is fire to the smoke about certain other nonsense.  Let's put it this way: if it was my son who was doing or who had done certain things that constitute the "fire," there would be significant familial intervention.  Maybe a 27-year-old who might be worth $100m is beyond that.  In fact, it's probably the case.  But if it was my child, I'd be there to get his head right because life is short, time is precious, and these years--both professionally and personally--will fly quickly by. 

I don't believe that you have insider knowledge. If you do, there's no reason not to share it instead of being obtuse about it.

2 hours ago, Goin Breakdown said:

Not even a week ago we were all in a hizzy because some hack said josh wasn't studying and didn't put in the time (paraphrasing). Now look at us. Maybe just maybe when others aren't wearing rose colored glasses they see things we don't. Not saying the comment on josh was exactly correct (how are we to really know and understand what Josh does) 

Thank you

[Chandler#81]

3 hours ago, eball said:

Ok so the real question is “how do you fix Josh?”  Obviously you aren’t going to bench him, but how do you get him to be a team player and not always try to be the hero?

 

Meds or make him a Eunuch. He isn’t gonna change the way he is.

[Coach Tuesday]

9 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Meds or make him a Eunuch. He isn’t gonna change the way he is.

I think that’s the real question we’re all dancing around but not asking directly:

 

Is Josh Allen coachable?

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, Coach Tuesday said:

I think that’s the real question we’re all dancing around but not asking directly:

 

Is Josh Allen coachable?

 

Yes he's coachable.  Just because he falls back into bad habits doesn't mean everything about him is uncoachable.

He is a significantly better QB that he was his rookie year.

[BeavercreekBillsFan]

9 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Shanahan traded multiple first round picks for Trey Lance who isn’t a robot.

And it failed miserably. If you read all the reports, he really wanted Mac Jones then they changed their minds for some reason. 

[Brand J]

27 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK, now I got to say something to this.

 

First of all, Mahomes early in his career through the Super Bowl loss to Tampa, would 1) take incredibly deep drops which got deeper when pressured 2) would, in fact, not stay calm in a pocket, but bail out and run.  This was also evident during the AFC Championship loss to the Bengals in 2021.  Containing Mahomes successfully from breaking out and running was also, in fact, a necessary and important part of the Bills Division round game plan which got them punts and FG and kept them in the game.  And, by the way, in Week 8 of the 2021 season, the Chiefs were 4-4 - yes, there were problems with Mahomes and the passing offense.  

 

Staying in the pocket to throw was something Mahomes improved at last season, resulting in a 2nd Superbowl win - but let's not write as though that's who he's been as a QB from the start.  Recency bias there.

 

Second of all, while Brady would at times stand tall in the pocket, Brady spent his entire career in an offense designed off the short, quick pass with YAC.  Fact: since 2018 when breakdowns of completed air yards vs yards after catch became available on free sites like pro-football reference, Brady had LOWER CAY than YAC all but 1 year (2020) - and in 2020, it was 4.6 air yards to 4.5 yards after catch.  So you're talking about a totally different play design and reads, where the idea is to get the ball out quickly for a short completion.  Most of his career, Brady knew the pressure wouldn't get to him in time because the ball would be long gone.

 

Like it or not, that's a fundamentally different offensive play design than the deep-to-shallow reads designed into our offense that Josh is trying to buy time to execute.  And yes, Josh stands in the pocket sometimes, too.

 

So maybe chill with the "see the same frenetic pocket collapsing all around Brady and Mahomes but neither of those dudes panic like Josh".  No, that's not quite what you've seen.

That’s absolutely what I’ve seen. Are you also going to tell me I wasn’t screaming “get him!” as Bills defenders closed in and not one of them could get to either QB in time? Mahomes holds the ball like Josh so he’s more comparable, but NO offense is designed to hold it for 3+ seconds. Brady doesn’t have the wheels that Josh and Mahomes have, so knowing his pre and post snap reads were even more paramount to his success. And even in the instances his initial read was wrong and the pocket closed in around him, he never panicked. He kept his cool and looked to new targets. It was Houdini-like how no one could get to him in time, how many arm swipes that would’ve gotten there with just half a second more. My original point of not panicking when things closed in around them was valid, for both QBs. Mahomes has gotten better at this, no doubt, and that has also coincided with the improvement of his OL. Josh has to take that next step and also trust in his guys. 

[Beck Water]

17 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

That’s absolutely what I’ve seen.

 

OK

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Meds or make him a Eunuch. He isn’t gonna change the way he is.

 

 

Josh has played differently in different games.  His post-season performances in 2021 were masterpieces of "taking what is given".

 

So were a number of his early games in 2022 - Rams, Titans, Chiefs.

 

In fact, Josh's first half was to my eyes, markedly different than the 2nd half. 
I could say the same about the Packers game.

 

I think two things are at play:

1) either Josh gets his bell rung a bit (he did come down hard on his head on one scramble) and reverts to his lifelong instincts

or

2) Josh gets impatient with playing the game the defense is giving him, and gets overcome by the desire to Make A Big Play

 

Since he's managed to contain himself in previous games, he needs to figure out what the difference is.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Beck Water