Update: All -22 stuff Joe Marino Locked on Bills, Now Cover 1 w/ play breakdowns

[Old Coot]

For those  who blame Dorsey's playcalling I urge you to look at the Cover 1 breakdown of key pass plays in the Jets game. The route combos are sound. Now we don't know the reads (long to short; short to long; key on the DB being attacked) but again the concepts are sound and there were open guys that Josh missed.  It seems to be a problem of execution and not playcalling.

 

Since he began playing QB I've noticed that Josh holds onto the ball longer than most QBs. Someone on the board said that Daboll put Josh in the shotgun because it gives Josh a better view of the field so it may be that Josh takes longer to process what he sees. From the Cover 1 breakdown it seems that Josh is better on plays when the concept is to high-low a CB so that no matter what the DB does he's wrong. Those are crisp bang-bang reads (if the DB takes the deeper WR you hit the underneath guy; if he takes the shallower guy you hit the deeper guy).

 

Every time Josh breaks the pocket the route structure and timing is ruined. It becomes backyard ball.

[Joe Ferguson]

Like one of the posters said here. He's doing this hero ball crap to impress his new girlfriend or the girlfriend told Josh to be hero ball Josh. What other reason could it be? 

[Beck Water]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:45 PM, Simon said:

 

I thought it was mostly a lane issue.

 

I'm not sure what's meant by this?

[billieve420]

33 minutes ago, Old Coot said:

For those  who blame Dorsey's playcalling I urge you to look at the Cover 1 breakdown of key pass plays in the Jets game. The route combos are sound. Now we don't know the reads (long to short; short to long; key on the DB being attacked) but again the concepts are sound and there were open guys that Josh missed.  It seems to be a problem of execution and not playcalling.

 

Since he began playing QB I've noticed that Josh holds onto the ball longer than most QBs. Someone on the board said that Daboll put Josh in the shotgun because it gives Josh a better view of the field so it may be that Josh takes longer to process what he sees. From the Cover 1 breakdown it seems that Josh is better on plays when the concept is to high-low a CB so that no matter what the DB does he's wrong. Those are crisp bang-bang reads (if the DB takes the deeper WR you hit the underneath guy; if he takes the shallower guy you hit the deeper guy).

 

Every time Josh breaks the pocket the route structure and timing is ruined. It becomes backyard ball.

Seems to me Allen has too much leeway to do whatever he wants. When Dorsey sees things start to unravel should be telling Josh on the headset what he wants while giving him the play call and reel his QB back in.

[PBF81]

27 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

I'll hang up and listen 😃  Seriously, I like to hear everyones honest takes. I certainly give mine.

 

OK, here ya go, buckle up!  LOL  

 

Alright, but this is going to be about as popular here as a tranny drag queen at a southern baptist potluck dinner. It's going to get red-x'd by a bunch of posters, I already know who some of them are. LOL

Simply put, it seems that Allen isn't being properly coached. Do I say that because I know something about how he's being coached? No. I'm purely going by circumstantial evidence, such as what I laid out above about the original hiring of Daboll followed by the promotion of Dorsey, and Allen's play, which we're all familiar with.  Again, what in either Daboll's or Dorsey's dossier qualifies them to be instructing Allen to tweak his game to expert levels? The short answer, for anyone that's honest, is nothing.

That means that anything that either did bring would be contingent upon what they've learned or done while he and they have been here.  But what's the evidence for that?  It would also seem that three seasons in, Allen simply got more comfortable and learned things by himself for the most part.  If it truly was coaching, then there wouldn't be a 10+% increase in Compl. %, and then again 50% Passing Yardage increase, and a near doubling of Passing TDs, and 20+ point increase in rating in a single season.  Coaching would be a more gradual increase.  That was largely Allen's comfort zone improvement in his third season, which is noted for QBs taking their games to another level.

It also seems illogical that Dorsey after being able to do little with Newton, all of a sudden turned Allen into what he is.  But let's say for the sake of argument that Dorsey was in fact responsible for Allen's massive leap from 2019 to 2020.  That would be incredibly impressive and we would then argue that it was masterful.  It would put Dorsey in the genius category. But then how come Allen hasn't continued to improve and in fact perhaps is even backtracking/regression somewhat, or at absolute minimum the demonstrated seeming inability to do what far less talented QBs have done, namely take advantage of what the opposing defenses give them, which even the inexperienced Wilson did on MNF, and the high-percentage passes.

The argument is that Allen's not listening to Dorsey and doing his own thing, but to that I would argue that's what got him to the level he is to begin with, not Dorsey, but then why all of a sudden would he stop listening to Dorsey if Dorsey was truly responsible for a 10+ point bump in Compl.%, nearly double the TDs, 1,500 more yards, and a 22 point bump in rating?  Only a fool would stop listening to advice at that point, and we know that Allen isn't a great fool, so clearly he can't choose the wine in front of him. ... oh, ... I digress.
 

I'm not a big fan of assigning success to people that have exceptional circumstances that pave the way for it, and amidst a dearth of any known reasons for it otherwise.  But that’s kind of what we’re expected to believe here, in Buffalo for the time being.

At the end of the day, IMO Allen isn't getting proper coaching for multiple reasons.  One, McD's more of a players coach and soft when it comes to discipline and that type of thing.  I also don't think Allen got it with Daboll either for similar reasons per above.  As to Dorsey, he and Allen seem to be buddies more than they seem to be coach and player, which wouldn't be a healthy or proper relationship if that's true, and further establishes McD's status as a players coach, and the Dorsey/Allen relationship by implication.

On a side note, Levy was a players coach as well, and that's why we couldn't win a Super Bowl, because we went up against much better tacticians, strategists, and disciplinarians.  Who thinks that Jimmy Johnson or Parcells, or even Gibbs for that matter would have put up with Kelly et al. partying the night before the game, etc. Had we had any of those three as our coach, I’m confident we’d have two Lombardis now.  All three were notably better coaches than Levy, who only excelled here in Buffalo with an all-star roster, a roster that Polian called “special” and "rare."

 

Anyway, now we get into why coaches such as Daboll and Dorsey were/are in the role.  It’s important to remember that McD was hired before anyone. There’s plenty of reason to strongly suspect that McD is a control-freak and wants ultimate control of all aspects of the team.  Who knows, but the smart money says that there was some discussion of that between McD and Pegula upon his hire.  Otherwise, why would Pegula have put the cart before the horse and hired a coach before he hired a GM, which is almost unheard of.  I can’t think of another instance in the modern NFL that that’s happened, but even if it has, it’s incredibly rare at best.

 

When we hired the coach, McD, first, I told everyone at that time to get ready and that the GM that he selects would come from Carolina also.  Was that because I thought or that the best candidate was in fact at Carolina at the time?  Hardly.  Quite the opposite in fact, the odds of that were remote.  It’s common sense that McD wasn’t about to hire someone that wouldn’t owe him and therefore be in a position to fire him if things didn’t go well after three seasons.  So he hired Beane, who IMO would never fire McD unless directed to do so by Pegula.  

 

That set the tone for the rest.  

 

Same for his coordinator hires. Frasier had a failed stint as a Head Coach in Minnesota where his defenses got progressively worse and where his offense never crossed the average mark. In his last season there it was 32nd in Scoring and 31st in Yardage.  He ran it into the ground there.

 

After that he went to Tampa as a DC again where his defense was worse than both his predecessor after arriving, as well as his successor upon leaving.  

 

What are the odds that McD thought that there was any chance that Frazier would take his place?  I’d say pretty close to zero.  Here in Buffalo there’s still questioning as to whether the D during Frazier’s tenure was more McD’s being run by Frazier, or more Frazier’s.  I’ve been wondering if McD didn’t take Frazier’s responsibilities from him because he was afraid that Pegula might fire him and promote Frazier. We’ll never know.

 

In the final analysis, Allen’s progress is being held up inadequate coaching.  How we define inadequate can be debated.

 

The other thing that is entirely possible is that Dorsey, who’s never distinguished himself in any particular way coaching in the NFL, sees Allen as his ticket to perhaps a head coaching job, but more importantly, to a positive projection of himself as a coach to the extent that he’ll be recognized as being great in that way.

 

As such, at times it seems, based upon Allen’s play, if Dorsey is really affecting it, that Dorsey is living vicariously through Allen in an attempt to re-live his collegiate greatness at QB, except on the coaching side, and he was in fact great as a QB at Miami.  We know that he's never even approached being above-average until Allen otherwise.  But that would be a mistake.

 

And again, people say hooey, that’s a lump of baloney, well then fine, but then that must mean that Dorsey isn’t getting through to Allen either, because Allen’s trying to play QB as if he’s in college, as the man among boys that he was, and throwing the ball as if our players are that much superior to the opposing defensive players.  As if he's playing for Alabama five seasons ago and prior, ... or Miami in its collegiate heyday.  Just sayin'.  

 

So that’s how I see it.  If Dorsey is getting through to Allen, then it’s poor instruction.

 

If he isn’t getting through to Allen, then perhaps we need an OC that can.  In fact, we may even need a new Head Coach as I believe is necessary if we want to get the most out of Allen.  I've got my eye on Press Taylor in Jax, although IMO, and unfortunately, the odds of McD getting canned after this season, even with a wild-card spot and another divisional (or wild-card) round loss in the playoffs, is remote.  

 

Allen performed better in some respects under Daboll as OC, but that’s not to say that it was because of Daboll.  

 

McD doesn’t have any answers/solutions to the Allen question, otherwise he’d step in. But the catch-22 is that he’ll never hire someone that can really turn Allen into the QB that we’re all hoping he’ll be.

 

Why not?

 

Think about it. McD hires an OC that comes in and takes Allen to the next level.  What happens next?

 

Right, that person becomes the next head coach because offense is more important than defense in today’s NFL, and before the team would lose him to a head coaching position elsewhere, Pegula would step in and see to it to fire McD and promote that OC.

 

That’s my take and has been for a while now.

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

So the argument goes from "McDermott is along for the ride we win because of Josh" 

 

To

 

"Why is Josh Allen not an all world Quarterback at the moment, it must be McDermott's fault"

 

Some people have already decided their answer and will bend every single piece of evidence to fit the narrative. 

 

Joe Marino is spot on. Monday was on Josh Allen. Nobody else.

[Mango]

22 hours ago, Goin Breakdown said:

Not even a week ago we were all in a hizzy because some hack said josh wasn't studying and didn't put in the time (paraphrasing). Now look at us. Maybe just maybe when others aren't wearing rose colored glasses they see things we don't. Not saying the comment on josh was exactly correct (how are we to really know and understand what Josh does) 

That wasn’t a hack, that was me…well I’m kind of a hack, but all I do is post on this message board. 

[Mango]

22 hours ago, BeavercreekBillsFan said:

The 49ers are already a juggernaut right now without josh. I mention it all the time on this board because I’m not over the CMC trade and beane not getting him. That said. Shanahan doesn’t really want a guy like Josh. Sure he’s a fun toy but he would drive KS nuts. He wants a robot back there to execute his offense, that’s not josh. Josh is best off script. KS draws up the best scripts in the league. He’s unmatched. I get your point though. 

Shanahan is likely the best OC in the league right now, at worst second behind Reid. If Shanahan would hate working with a guy, maybe Kyle isn’t the problem. 
 

I don’t agree with you, I think Shanahan would welcome Josh with open arms. 

[Mango]

20 hours ago, The Wiz said:

Pretty accurate analysis.

 

 

I actually hate this take. I’d rather Josh be a little too cocky and bet on his eyes by not watching enough film. Or not putting enough care in his diet. 
 

There is something about the idea that Josh played the way he did because he “got bored of taking what the defense was giving him” that infuriates me to no end. 
 

Josh Allen was so so bad that he’s the topic of conversation for every media outlet this week. People comparing him to Carson Wentz.
 

And he played that way because he was bored?! I’ll take a guy who is missing a piece here or there. Or needs to get better at skill A or B. But to play like crap because you got bored? If that’s the case he’s done in this league forever and he’s entered the realm of uncoachability. That’s insane myopic, selfish, and narcissistic in a way that makes you a consistent danger to your teams. 
 

Edit: I am not saying this is the case. I vehemently disagree with this. But also, as a team and a fan base we need this not to be the case. To me this is absolutely worst cash scenario. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Mango

[GunnerBill]

26 minutes ago, Mango said:

Shanahan is likely the best OC in the league right now, at worst second behind Reid. If Shanahan would hate working with a guy, maybe Kyle isn’t the problem. 
 

I don’t agree with you, I think Shanahan would welcome Josh with open arms. 

 

I think I agree with @BeavercreekBillsFan here - Kyle likes guys who run his plays. Because he is the best play designer in football. I don't think he is as good as a playcaller as Reid (and there are probably a few others you could throw in that mix as playcallers - Pederson, McVay actually even Josh McDaniels) but as a play designer, he is unparalleled IMO. Shanahan beats teams on the whiteboard with the Xs and Os. His big successes in his career have come with Matt Schaub, Matt Ryan, Jimmy G and Brock Purdy. Guys who are very much system Quarterbacks who run the play as it is designed. Matt Ryan was a very good system Quarterback and probably was a top 6 or 7 guy in the league at the time. So I'm not saying he wants average QBs but he wants guys who do not ad-lib too much. He wants you to run the play he designed. 

 

Maybe he could coach Josh into that guy, I'm not convinced though. 

[The Wiz]

45 minutes ago, Mango said:

I actually hate this take. I’d rather Josh be a little too cocky and bet on his eyes by not watching enough film. Or not putting enough care in his diet. 
 

There is something about the idea that Josh played the way he did because he “got bored of taking what the defense was giving him” that infuriates me to no end. 
 

Josh Allen was so so bad that he’s the topic of conversation for every media outlet this week. People comparing him to Carson Wentz.
 

And he played that way because he was bored?! I’ll take a guy who is missing a piece here or there. Or needs to get better at skill A or B. But to play like crap because you got bored? If that’s the case he’s done in this league forever and he’s entered the realm of uncoachability. That’s insane myopic, selfish, and narcissistic in a way that makes you a consistent danger to your teams. 

I don't disagree with anything you said at all but when you see that there were plays underneath on the all-22 that he didn't take, you need to ask why he didn't take the easy play.

 

I'm not asking him to turn into captain checkdown and throw a 4 yard pass on 3rd and 20 but when he's throwing bombs on 2nd and 10 with guys open 4-5 yards in front of him, it's a question that needs to be asked why he's not taking those.

Edited September 14, 2023 by The Wiz

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

So the argument goes from "McDermott is along for the ride we win because of Josh" 

 

To

 

"Why is Josh Allen not an all world Quarterback at the moment, it must be McDermott's fault"

 

Some people have already decided their answer and will bend every single piece of evidence to fit the narrative. 

 

Joe Marino is spot on. Monday was on Josh Allen. Nobody else.

1 million percent.

 

 

[White Linen]

"It wasn't Dorsey " is actually hilarious. 

[teef]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

1 million percent.

 

 

1 million and one percent.  

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

There is something about the idea that Josh played the way he did because he “got bored of taking what the defense was giving him” that infuriates me to no end. 

it’s more like “course management” in golf. Good golfers can cut the corner on a dog leg, but the smart ones lay-up. It is sometimes mentally hard to lay-up though when you know you can bomb a 300 yard drive.

 

I think that is the problem with Josh. The ironic thing is I bet he has these same issues when he plays golf.

[Royale with Cheese]

6 minutes ago, teef said:

1 million and one percent.  

 

Yeah but I bet you do 8 minute abs.  I do 7 minute abs.

[teef]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Yeah but I bet you do 8 minute abs.  I do 7 minute abs.

i had a 6 pack surgically implanted.  

[MJS]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

I actually hate this take. I’d rather Josh be a little too cocky and bet on his eyes by not watching enough film. Or not putting enough care in his diet. 
 

There is something about the idea that Josh played the way he did because he “got bored of taking what the defense was giving him” that infuriates me to no end. 
 

Josh Allen was so so bad that he’s the topic of conversation for every media outlet this week. People comparing him to Carson Wentz.
 

And he played that way because he was bored?! I’ll take a guy who is missing a piece here or there. Or needs to get better at skill A or B. But to play like crap because you got bored? If that’s the case he’s done in this league forever and he’s entered the realm of uncoachability. That’s insane myopic, selfish, and narcissistic in a way that makes you a consistent danger to your teams. 
 

Edit: I am not saying this is the case. I vehemently disagree with this. But also, as a team and a fan base we need this not to be the case. To me this is absolutely worst cash scenario. 

He didn't look bored to me. A bored QB shouldn't be dancing around and bailing from the pocket. He wasn't bored at all. He was panicked, confused, amped up, and nervous.

 

Anyone who says he was bored in that game simply didn't watch him. He was frenetic all game long. Even on his awesome TD throw he was like a fox being chased by a bunch of hound dogs. He wasn't comfortable all night.

[Avisan]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

So the argument goes from "McDermott is along for the ride we win because of Josh" 

 

To

 

"Why is Josh Allen not an all world Quarterback at the moment, it must be McDermott's fault"

 

Some people have already decided their answer and will bend every single piece of evidence to fit the narrative. 

 

Joe Marino is spot on. Monday was on Josh Allen. Nobody else.

There's also NO evidence that McDermott is a "soft, player's coach" that doesn't discipline players, and frankly a lot of evidence to the contrary.

 

The narratives people cling to despite making up every piece of evidence in their own heads are fascinating.

[BeavercreekBillsFan]

40 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think I agree with @BeavercreekBillsFan here - Kyle likes guys who run his plays. Because he is the best play designer in football. I don't think he is as good as a playcaller as Reid (and there are probably a few others you could throw in that mix as playcallers - Pederson, McVay actually even Josh McDaniels) but as a play designer, he is unparalleled IMO. Shanahan beats teams on the whiteboard with the Xs and Os. His big successes in his career have come with Matt Schaub, Matt Ryan, Jimmy G and Brock Purdy. Guys who are very much system Quarterbacks who run the play as it is designed. Matt Ryan was a very good system Quarterback and probably was a top 6 or 7 guy in the league at the time. So I'm not saying he wants average QBs but he wants guys who do not ad-lib too much. He wants you to run the play he designed. 

 

Maybe he could coach Josh into that guy, I'm not convinced though. 

Thanks this is what I was alluding to. Shanahan is the best offensive mind in the league and I’m not sure it’s that close. Reid is a great play caller but as far as designing plays, KS is at another level. People laughed when I said it’s over for the rest of the league now that he has CMC but I meant it. They haven’t lost since the trade happened (unless you can’t the game where they played without an QB). And now he’s had a whole offseason to design stuff up with CMC and these weapons. It really is hard to imagine them not winning it this year barring injury. He damn near won it with Jimmy G and Matt Ryan, and Purdy gives them something a little extra. The proof is there. If you run his plays, you’re going to win. Watch their games. Please just sit and watch. There are guys open every damn time. WIDE OPEN. With space to run too. I wish Dorsey would just steal like 3 or 4 of his plays to get someone some separation. 
 

I love josh but he doesn’t fit in the KS system where you are asked to pick the open target from like 3 wide open choices and then dump it to them and let them YAC the defense to death. The minute josh goes off script, KS would pull his hair out. Unless you simply think josh is going to change his ways all of a sudden.