Update: All -22 stuff Joe Marino Locked on Bills, Now Cover 1 w/ play breakdowns

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

His field vision is very inconsistent.  Monday it was completely non existent.  He's gotta improve there or the whole point of running a shorter passing attack will be moot.

perhaps he needs glasses ? Like that CB we had back when.

[Dan in Owego]

[PBF81]

52 minutes ago, Peter said:

I think my point is pretty obvious. The Dorsey haters (or most of them) seem to think that he is a horrible OC while the same people think Daboll is God's gift to coordinating offenses. The objective metrics contradict the bias that I read here and on Twitter.

 

BTW, if you really want my honest take on why Allen's underachieving/underperforming, just let me know.  

 

 

[3rdand12]

49 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

I think my point is pretty obvious. The Dorsey haters (or most of them) seem to think that he is a horrible OC while the same people think Daboll is God's gift to coordinating offenses. The objective metrics contradict the bias that I read here and on Twitter.

 

Your prior post about points scored was false. In both seasons, the Bills averaged 28.4 points per game.

 

In any event, it is clear that the objective metrics are not going to change your mind, and you and the others are not going to change mine.

 

God bless.

what if i am not a Daboll lover ? Where do fit in here?

 And I do not have the patience for the on the job training for with Ken.

The time to dominate may have passed us by.

McBeane said "contenders , consistently"

After last half of the season and  Monday nite ? Not feeling it from the Bills Offense

 

They have enough talent easily imo. dont need stars at every position do you ? Just know your job and do it

 Make best use of what you have. Knowing the abilities of each player and accentuating those skills ?

 Daboll did okay

But no , i do not wish him back nor to stay

Dorsey ?

still very not sure

 

 

13 minutes ago, Dan in Owego said:

No not that one ! Corner back !! not HB  lol

 Well done Dan.
 

[WideNine]

18 minutes ago, Dan in Owego said:

Now there's a blast from the past. Dickerson is classic and thanks for the memory.

 

Always blew me away how a RB could run with his pad level so high, and he had those long strides. Took 4 steps and he was almost 20 yards downfield.

 

Looked like he was jogging as he blew by guys.

 

 

 

 

 

[RunTheBall]

I’ve been a Dorsey skeptic but he wasn’t the problem. Dorsey called a good game against the defense that has been giving Josh fits since halfway through last year - the 2 high safety with quarters/palms coverage. Rush 4, 7 in coverage, rush contained with your eye out for Josh to run. 

 

The way to beat this is with an effective running game and throws to the flats/slants/middle until it forces them to bring a safety down or change the coverage.

 

Do any of you guys watch the All-22? You don’t have to be a film guru to see what was going on especially when you take the emotion out of it.

 

The running game was meh especially between the tackles and you can chalk that up to one of the best D-lines we will see. The outside gap/zones worked better getting James to the edge. The only criticism I have for Dorsey is he could have stuck to the outside runs a little more.

 

Other than that, if you watch the All-22,  you can see guys were open in the short/intermediate area all game long. Josh took them in the beginning then for whatever reason just flat out ignored them in the second half. Again, you don’t have to be a film guru to see Knox/Diggs/Kincaid open for obvious first downs when Josh chose to go elsewhere.

 

I asked Marino via Subtxt if he could tell from the film if this was Josh just making bad decisions or if he was losing his field vision which would be much more problematic. His response was that in his opinion it was very obvious Josh saw the open shorter routes and just chose to play hero ball. He said with the 3 different views he could get a good look at where Josh was looking and he just wasn’t pulling the trigger in the early part of the progressions. I’d be much more concerned if this were a “reading the D/lack of vision” problem.

 

The only positive out of this is that it’s fixable. Now we are going on over half a season with Josh talking the talk but not transferring that into the game. Maybe, just maybe this game was humbling enough for Josh to start playing within the game script and listening to his coaches. Make no mistake, Josh wears his heart on his sleeve and he knows he cost the team this game. That can’t sit well. I just hope it’s enough to get him to settle down and start listening to his coaches because the plays were there to be made he just chose not to make them.

 

[Pete]

22 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Good to hear that Bernard looked decent and Benford looked great. Those positions were both question marks coming into the season. If we just get adequate play at those spots and the pass rush is as improved as if looks, this will still be a top 5 defense, for whatever that's worth in 2023.

Kincaid and Cyrus too!  The Bills future is bright

[HappyDays]

17 minutes ago, Pete said:

Kincaid and Cyrus too!  The Bills future is bright

 

If Josh isn't completely broken, I agree. Beane needed a really solid draft to keep our championship window open and it appears he did. Kincaid and Torrence both look like hits. If Kincaid becomes a superstar like I believe he can be, that is a home run draft class.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, 3rdand12 said:

what if i am not a Daboll lover ? Where do fit in here?

 And I do not have the patience for the on the job training for with Ken.

The time to dominate may have passed us by.

McBeane said "contenders , consistently"

After last half of the season and  Monday nite ? Not feeling it from the Bills Offense

 

They have enough talent easily imo. dont need stars at every position do you ? Just know your job and do it

 Make best use of what you have. Knowing the abilities of each player and accentuating those skills ?

 Daboll did okay

But no , i do not wish him back nor to stay

Dorsey ?

still very not sure

 

 

No not that one ! Corner back !! not HB  lol

 Well done Dan.
 

 

My question for anyone that liked either hire would be, why would you hire that person.  

 

In Daboll's case, let's go back to 2018 (after the 2017 season) and you, as the HC, say to yourself, I need an OC to replace Rick Dennison.  

 

Here's Daboll's coaching history at that time:  

 

He starts his NFL coaching career under Belichick as a "Defensive Asst."  That goes for 2 years.  

Then, oddly, he switches to being a WRs Coach there for 5 more seasons.  During that span, not one of his WRs breaches 1,000 yards or 7 TDs and typically not even over 800/5.  ... with Brady at QB.  

Then he scoots over to the Jets and coaches QBs for a pair of seasons, to no particular accomplishments or achievements there.  

Then he gets his first OC gig in Cleveland in '09 and '10.  

Followed by a stint as OC in Miami for a year, then as OC in KC for a year.  

 

In those four years as OC, his only NFL OC coaching gigs, respectively he "leads" his offenses to the following rankings respectively: 

 

29th Scoring, 32nd Yardage 

31st Scoring, 29th Yardage 

20th Scoring, 22nd Yardage 

32nd Scoring, 24th Yardage 

 

Then in 2013 he takes a demotion, goes back to New England as an "Asst. Coach" before being allowed to coach Gronkowski as the TEs Coach for three more seasons.  

 

Then he goes to Alabama for one season which at the time was something akin to being the coach of a bunch of high school seniors in a league of 8th graders, but college nonetheless, where it's a different gig, and inherits the 16th ranked scoring offense on a team that had already won two straight national championships led by their #1 ranked Defense which is ranked #1 again in the year that he's there.  

 

Based on that, as a Head Coach, what in the wide world of sports makes you say to yourself, "this guy's got it going on on offense!  His accomplishments as an OC precede him and I've just gotta have this guy coaching my Offense!"   

 

BTW, then he came here and led us to the 30th ranked Scoring and 30th ranked Yardage Offense, our worst since 2007, then to the 23rd ranked Scoring and 24th ranked Yardage Offense the year after in 2019 before Allen found his groove.  

 

He had zero proven record of developing QBs, his record as an NFL OC was not merely bad, but abysmal.  His average Scoring O as an OC was 28th, and his Yardage O 27th.  Adding his first two seasons here it wasn't significantly different.  

 

In my world you'd have to be drinking an awful lot or be stoned to the nines to come to the conclusion that of all options available, that he was the best possible hire.  But that's just me.  

 

As to Dorsey, he didn't even have a track record as an OC, and his dossier as a QB Coach in Carolina from 2013 to 2017 was average to below-average for four of those five seasons, and in the one in which Newton had his heyday season, as I've already outlined in the past in places here, they had the easiest schedule of any NFL team from 2011 thru 2022.  

 

It featured passing defenses ranked 2nd 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 16th (twice), 18th (twice), 24th, 25th, 28th, 29th, 31st (twice), 32nd, which features 11 of 16 games vs. mostly well below-average passing defenses. 

 

Of the first five teams ranked 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 7th, Newton only had average or better games against Green Bay (10-6) and Tennessee (3-13) that season.  

 

21 of Newton's 35 Passing TDs were against those teams ranked 24th and worse.  

Against those top 5 passing Ds, Newton had a rating of 86.0.  He averaged 1.4 TDs/game, 232 Passing Yards, 58.1% Compl.%, and that was his best season by a country mile.  

 

In his four other seasons under Dorsey, Newton averaged 21 TD Passes, 14 INTs, posted season ratings of 88.8, 82.1, 75.8, and 80.7, in that order otherwise, getting progressively worse generally speaking

 

It's not as bad as Daboll, but I still question why anyone in 2018, looking for a QB coach, says to themself, of all options out there, this kid Dorsey's the guy to get the job done.  Why?  What did he achieve other than in a rogue season?  

 

I have my own theory as to why McD chose Dorsey, and I've generally stated it before, but that's irrelevant at the moment.  

 

I do question anyone that would consider either of those two to be the best possible options NFL-wide, to get Allen to achieve his full potential.  

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by PBF81

[Meatloaf63]

23 hours ago, buffblue said:

Allen better get it together. I won't lie, I'm a little concerned about him bouncing back even against a mediocre Raiders defense at home. He looked like a beaten and broken man on the sidelines and during his press conference.

 

This is the first time since 2019 that I am genuinely worried about Josh's mindset. 

I’m not worried about his mindset, I’m worried about his commitment. He’s looked like this almost every game since the packers game last year. Thought the Cincinnati experience would wake him up. It didn’t If this doesn’t nothing will. I question if he’s putting in the work anymore. This is a big problem.

[Lost]

Cover1 out with a breakdown of some of Josh's plays from Monday.

 

 

Film review starts @ 31:00

[Royale with Cheese]

27 minutes ago, Lost said:

Cover1 out with a breakdown of some of Josh's plays from Monday.

 

 

Film review starts @ 31:00

I was wondering about the lack of play action but they’re showing early the Jets weren’t buying into it anyway.  Linebackers weren’t biting.  We might have needed to run more under center.

[Reed83HOF]

41 minutes ago, Lost said:

Cover1 out with a breakdown of some of Josh's plays from Monday.

 

 

Film review starts @ 31:00

I was watching this and just updated it to throw this in here...It certainly wasn't on Dorsey

With the film breakdown, it wasn't Dorsey the easy plays were there. The one INT on the pass to Davis where Whitehead undercut, it was arm arrogance. He had 2 other throws for the first down. On the arm punt INT, he could have ran it (we know), but Knox had a few steps on Mosely for a huge possible gain. The basic breakdown is that, The Jets baited the hero ball out of Allen...

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I was watching this and just updated it to throw this in here...It certainly wasn't on Dorsey

With the film breakdown, it wasn't Dorsey the easy plays were there. The one INT on the pass to Davis where Whitehead undercut, it was arm arrogance. He had 2 other throws for the first down. On the arm punt INT, he could have ran it (we know), but Knox had a few steps on Mosely for a huge possible gain. The basic breakdown is that, The Jets baited the hero ball out of Allen...

The Harty INT was very head scratching.  The safety stayed deep the entire time….really deep.

 

Knox had a few steps on Mosley.  Allen had 8 yards of space ahead of him.

[BBFL]

3 hours ago, Peter said:

 

I think my point is pretty obvious. The Dorsey haters (or most of them) seem to think that he is a horrible OC while the same people think Daboll is God's gift to coordinating offenses. The objective metrics contradict the bias that I read here and on Twitter.

I don’t know about this take. I’m in the boat that feels Josh seemed to make better decisions under Daboll. That isn’t to say Dorsey can’t become a decent OC but the track record prior to Josh becoming Josh doesn’t say he can develop a QB into an elite passer. 
 

Some people just work better with others. Daboll and Josh were a match and seemed to fit perfectly those years together and is certainly the reason Josh developed from a raw prospect into the MVP type player he is. Did he make mistakes those 4 years? Absolutely but he developed and improved in his decision making. Some of the decisions and turnovers by Josh last season and opening night are totally bizarre… This is what leads people to question Dorsey. 
 

Either way, that’s a personal take. Wrong to some, maybe right to others. Who cares about the preference of the OC? Point is you cite metrics but turnovers are up and far more frequent in the past 19 games from Josh… That is under Ken Dorsey as OC. 🤷‍♂️

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

The Harty INT was very head scratching.  The safety stayed deep the entire time….really deep.

 

Knox had a few steps on Mosley.  Allen had 8 yards of space ahead of him.

 

I would have hit Knox all day long....

 

That INT when he was targeting Gabe, that's just a tough throw - if the ball placement was a bit better and more outside, he would have had that, but Whitehead read it the entire time - arm arrogance there. I totally get the temptation when Sauce stepped up - he was like I got this and just didn't even look at the safety. I easly can see where just taking what they give you gets a little frustarting for him.

 

At the beginning of the show, I did find it interesting on the Cover 6 they kept calling against us. The end with talking about Bernard was a really nice chat as well. I like Eric's thought of comparing Milano's first season to Bernard's - there might be something here with him.

[Royale with Cheese]

9 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

I would have hit Knox all day long....

 

That INT when he was targeting Gabe, that's just a tough throw - if the ball placement was a bit better and more outside, he would have had that, but Whitehead read it the entire time - arm arrogance there. I totally get the temptation when Sauce stepped up - he was like I got this and just didn't even look at the safety. I easly can see where just taking what they give you gets a little frustarting for him.

 

At the beginning of the show, I did find it interesting on the Cover 6 they kept calling against us. The end with talking about Bernard was a really nice chat as well. I like Eric's thought of comparing Milano's first season to Bernard's - there might be something here with him.

With them playing so deep on us, next game we may need to run Allen more.  He scored about a 40 yard TD last year on them.

 

He had a lane on the one but stumbled and fell.  He probably would have scored.

[MasterStrategist]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

With them playing so deep on us, next game we may need to run Allen more.  He scored about a 40 yard TD last year on them.

 

He had a lane on the one but stumbled and fell.  He probably would have scored.

It's an interesting thought.  And totally agree on last point...even with Cook, we had a few "so close" moments of HUGE plays.  Those should come.

 

I think LY, and years past, would mix in some rush power sweeps/designed runs.  Those are difficult to defend in general, but definitely helps get those safeties to creep up/adjust Cover 2 shell.

 

I don't think Coach was going to be a "hypocrite" week 1, after preaching Josh protecting himself.  BUT, they shouldn't be taking those plays completely away, 1-2 per game changes the perspective of the defense (just like the defense started to adjust to our smash concepts).

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

BTW, if you really want my honest take on why Allen's underachieving/underperforming, just let me know.  

 

 

 

I'll hang up and listen 😃  Seriously, I like to hear everyones honest takes. I certainly give mine.

2 hours ago, RunTheBall said:

I’ve been a Dorsey skeptic but he wasn’t the problem. Dorsey called a good game against the defense that has been giving Josh fits since halfway through last year - the 2 high safety with quarters/palms coverage. Rush 4, 7 in coverage, rush contained with your eye out for Josh to run. 

 

The way to beat this is with an effective running game and throws to the flats/slants/middle until it forces them to bring a safety down or change the coverage.

 

Do any of you guys watch the All-22? You don’t have to be a film guru to see what was going on especially when you take the emotion out of it.

 

The running game was meh especially between the tackles and you can chalk that up to one of the best D-lines we will see. The outside gap/zones worked better getting James to the edge. The only criticism I have for Dorsey is he could have stuck to the outside runs a little more.

 

Other than that, if you watch the All-22,  you can see guys were open in the short/intermediate area all game long. Josh took them in the beginning then for whatever reason just flat out ignored them in the second half. Again, you don’t have to be a film guru to see Knox/Diggs/Kincaid open for obvious first downs when Josh chose to go elsewhere.

 

I asked Marino via Subtxt if he could tell from the film if this was Josh just making bad decisions or if he was losing his field vision which would be much more problematic. His response was that in his opinion it was very obvious Josh saw the open shorter routes and just chose to play hero ball. He said with the 3 different views he could get a good look at where Josh was looking and he just wasn’t pulling the trigger in the early part of the progressions. I’d be much more concerned if this were a “reading the D/lack of vision” problem.

 

The only positive out of this is that it’s fixable. Now we are going on over half a season with Josh talking the talk but not transferring that into the game. Maybe, just maybe this game was humbling enough for Josh to start playing within the game script and listening to his coaches. Make no mistake, Josh wears his heart on his sleeve and he knows he cost the team this game. That can’t sit well. I just hope it’s enough to get him to settle down and start listening to his coaches because the plays were there to be made he just chose not to make them.

 

 

Yeah, I like all of this post. Although on the run game part.  I did not like the design.  Too many times Cook off to the side for a delayed hand off. Josh would run all the way over to him and give him the ball.  It was way too telegraphed and Cook had to start from a standstill.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Scott7975

[Reed83HOF]

16 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

With them playing so deep on us, next game we may need to run Allen more.  He scored about a 40 yard TD last year on them.

 

He had a lane on the one but stumbled and fell.  He probably would have scored.

Aggressive pass rush = screens or draw plays to counter it. We can't run a screen to save our life, so I get the draw plays. Spencer Brown's penalty in OT killed us and put us in 2nd and long. They did have a light box against us, so I get the call there...

 

I'm hoping Brown develops more and we preach competition at every position, but yet we went in very thin at RT and didn't bring in anyone who could push him.

14 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

It's an interesting thought.  And totally agree on last point...even with Cook, we had a few "so close" moments of HUGE plays.  Those should come.

 

I think LY, and years past, would mix in some rush power sweeps/designed runs.  Those are difficult to defend in general, but definitely helps get those safeties to creep up/adjust Cover 2 shell.

 

I don't think Coach was going to be a "hypocrite" week 1, after preaching Josh protecting himself.  BUT, they shouldn't be taking those plays completely away, 1-2 per game changes the perspective of the defense (just like the defense started to adjust to our smash concepts).

The preaching on protecting himself is to slide or get out of bounds and not leap over 6 guys or turn back in after you get the first...just avoid the hit. Josh is not cut from that cloth and will almost always initiate the contact