New year, same issues with play calling and use of personnel

[Reed83HOF]

59 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Last night Allen had one of his worst games in a long time.  

This is true,  it's been about 8 months since his last bad game; which unfortunately was also that last non-peseason game he played...

[appoo]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This is fair, but why is Allen now not seeing those, why isn't he as comfortable in the offense?  I just think that Allen is not playing as free and instinctively as he was in years prior since Dorsey took over at OC.  

 

And like I said, Allen doesn't any excuses here, he made poor decisions, thats on him.  But the other issues I listed with Dorsey are still their own concerns as well.  

Him playing freely and instinctively against an elite defense was the problem last night. 

 

Here I'll just link to my own tweet:

 

https://x.com/appoo_pratt/status/1701660925319864555?s=20

 

This sport, you never stop learning. I generally don't give a ***** about Josh's turnovers, because him trying these things are what seperates himself from practically every other QB, and he he tends to time those turnovers so they don't massively hurt the team. For me, if you have a super low INT count, it's suggesting you're just a scared QB. Obviously the other end of that spectrum is Jameis Winston, but Josh was never close to him in how impactful his turnovers generally were. 

 

Last night was the exception. 

 

Do I expect Josh to stop committing INTs? Absolutely not. Nor would I want him to stop making risky passes. 

 

What I do want him to get better at is WHEN to make those risky passes. Last night, if he just played like he was the 2nd coming of Chad freakin Pennington, stuck with Dorsey's game plan, the Bills win easily. That's really the lesson he needs to get in. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by appoo

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

To me it looks like he is shook in in the pocket

 

Bailing early, zero faith protection will hold up, etc etc

 

He definitely did not look comfortable in the pocket or that the protection would hold up.  There were times I thought the protection looked good and he tried to leave the pocket anyway.  Its like he had PTSD from the Bengals game and just didn't trust it to hold when he saw any sort of potential pressure.  

[Chaos]

1 hour ago, Success said:

It was hard to tell from yesterday. Allen just made so many mistakes. If he only throws that 1st pick, we win going away, and there is no hand-wringing today.

 

I'm not good at analysis & x's and o's stuff.  But my general feeling after the game is that Dorsey came in w/ a plan for the game, and didn't really adjust based on how the game progressed, and what wasn't working.  

 

That's very much just an impression, though. Like I said - if Allen was better, we'd probably feel okay about Dorsey today.  Maybe not full faith, but there wouldn't be the questions that we all seem to have.

 

At one point Allen was 17/21.  People wetting their pants like he was terrible the whole game is stupid. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, appoo said:

Him playing freely and instinctively against an elite defense was the problem last night. 

 

Here I'll just link to my own tweet:

 

https://x.com/appoo_pratt/status/1701660925319864555?s=20

 

This sport, you never stop learning. I generally don't give a ***** about Josh's turnovers, because him trying these things are what seperates himself from practically every other QB, and he he tends to time those turnovers so they don't massively hurt the team. For me, if you have a super low INT count, it's suggesting you're just a scared QB. Obviously the other end of that spectrum is Jameis Winston, but Josh was never close to him in how impactful his turnovers generally were. 

 

Last night was the exception. 

 

Do I expect Josh to stop committing INTs? Absolutely not. Nor would I want him to stop making risky passes. 

 

What I do want him to get better at is WHEN to make those risky passes. Last night, if he just played like he was the 2nd coming of Chad freakin Pennington, stuck with Dorsey's game plan, the Bills win easily. That's really the lesson he needs to get in. 

 

Dont disagree with this, however I think he has gotten worse with this under Dorsey, and that is the point I am really getting at.  It feels like he is thinking about too much out there now and just isn't seeing the field like he used to before to find those better opportunities rather than forcing them.  

[34-78-83]

Scheme looked very well suited to the NYJ opponent. I simply don't agree with literally any of your Dorsey concerns. Film (as pointed out also by Greg Tompsett) shows that the available options were there for Josh. The 2nd and 15 run was explained by both Josh and coach McD last night post game, and makes 100% sense from a coaching perspective. Cook is exactly the type of back to be starting in this scheme as well. With that shotgun spread, you're gonna get TFL's, it comes with the territory. I love the 12 personnel options in our newly adjusted scheme and the plethora of short releases and options it provides in dictating to the defense.

 

The NYJ defense is apparently much better than you credit them for. They and SF are the best 2 I've seen in '23.

 

Josh was the issue last night. Period. This one is real simple, where some other times its a bit more complex, and multi-faceted.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Chaos said:

At one point Allen was 17/21.  People wetting their pants like he was terrible the whole game is stupid. 

No kidding

 

He made 3 mistakes and they were massive

 

Rest of the time he was going exactly what people here claim they want to see😂😂

 

[appoo]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Dont disagree with this, however I think he has gotten worse with this under Dorsey, and that is the point I am really getting at.  It feels like he is thinking about too much out there now and just isn't seeing the field like he used to before to find those better opportunities rather than forcing them.  

Last seasonI'd agree with this, and it didn't feel like Dorsey had a real identity - which I attributed to him being a first time OC. 

 

Last night I think we did, which was grind the defense by spreading the ball out to various playmakers and not giving the Jets front much time to dominate. 

 

 

So I think there's imrpovement? But Josh's Cowboy crap got in the way of truly evaluating that, so we'll have to see against the Raiders and Washington whatevers. 

[Figster]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

I agree. I definitely wonder if Dorsey is the right guy for the job.

That said, the problem is that I don't see an easy way out of this one in the short term.

Short of firing Dorsey and promoting an underling like Joe Brady, I don't see how they could make any meaningful change this season that wouldn't completely disrupt the offense and make things even worse. Furthermore, Josh likes Dorsey and personally advocated for his being hired as OC. Dorsey also presided over a top five scoring offense last season, so any kind of dismissal of his services this early would likely not be met kindly.

That means riding with Dorsey for this season, at least, and seeing if things improve. One very bad Josh Allen game, on the road against an elite defense, in week one of the season (see: Chiefs, Bengals, Giants) is not enough for me to close the book on Dorsey yet.

But yes...absolutely starting to wonder about his abilities as a COACH, more so than as a play designer/caller.

Absolutely, sometimes the oppositions D dictates what you as an O can execute, so you take what the oppositions D gives you. (Not just with one play) Ken Dorsey's ability to counter with the proper play calling is non existent IMO.

 

If Allen refuses to follow script it just adds to Dorseys inability to coach the elite QB/Josh Allen. Trying to take Allen out of what feels normal for him adds to the confusion. Let Josh Allen be Josh Allen when it comes to running the football...

[Dubie54]

Dorsey didn't take full advantage of his personnel last year and he's at it again. He doesn't appear to experienced and/or knowledgeable enough to make adjustments during the game as he demonstrated all last year, or prepare for what to expect. He should know the Jets defensive schemes from last year's games. No question they are a good defense but his play calling seemed to play into their hands.

 

For example, when Murray was in he looked good, yet we kept at it with Cook. Cook made some nice plays getting around the edge, but he's not physical enough to for the Jets defensive line. Why not run more with Murray or send him out into the flat? Murray had one reception for 8 yds and Harris had two for 16 yds.

 

We made some use of the TEs last night, but I have a hard time believing that with 2 guys always on Diggs deep that we couldn't find at least one of the TEs open underneath, consistently.

 

Where was Sherfield? No receptions and I don't recall any targets.

 

The wide screens there were trying to run with Harty were not working. He was targeted 4 times for 3 recp. and 9 yards. On the other hand, Kincaid was targeted 4 times, 4 recp. and 26 yards. Was Dorsey afraid of using the rookie too much? That's why we drafted him.

 

This team has plenty of offensive firepower, but in the hands of Dorsey I just think it will continue to be underutilized.   

 

   

[Reed83HOF]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

I agree with @Success.

It's hard to make judgements on the play calls or play design after last night's game. 

The main reason for me is that when I go back and re-watch negative plays -- interceptions, sacks, throwaways -- I often see open receivers. It's hard for me to fault the OC too much when players are open (often short, yes) and Josh is refusing to throw it to them. If the plays Dorsey is calling have open receivers and Josh just isn't hitting them, it's hard for me to call it a Dorsey problem.

What I AM beginning to question is Dorsey's ability to coach Josh Allen the way he needs to be coached. As buddy-buddy as Josh was with Daboll, Josh would be the first to tell you that Daboll didn't hesitate to chew him out when he was being dumb. I think Daboll had a great feel for reigning in Bad Josh and harnessing Good Josh. Dorsey doesn't seem to have that feel. I'm starting to feel like Daboll was a very big reason that Josh had an all-world stretch of play in 2020 and 2021, and that Dorsey's lack of understanding of how to harness Josh's abilities and limit his negative tendencies in the same way are going to continue to mean that we see less Elite Josh and more Roller Coaster Josh, and that he's going to regress back to being the player the haters always told us he was.

THAT'S my concern. Less the play design and play calls, and more the actual COACHING of Josh Allen. 

This is where I am too and it makes perfect sense. I do billieve when the all-22 comes out there will be open guys underneath that he just ignored, again. Same shite different year. If the oc and qb coach do not reign him in, it's up to McD to be the actual HC. Unfortunately what will happen is we will beat up on these lowly teams and this will die down until the next time. My concern is not that we lost one game, the way we lost is a continuation from last year....

 

 

[Bubba Gump]

1 hour ago, starrymessenger said:

Brady should be Allen’s OC. 

Tom Brady.

 

Dan Orlovsky. The Bills should offer him whatever he wants to leave ESPN. He sucked as a qb, but he is exceptionally smart. 

[Dopey]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

He definitely did not look comfortable in the pocket or that the protection would hold up.  There were times I thought the protection looked good and he tried to leave the pocket anyway.  Its like he had PTSD from the Bengals game and just didn't trust it to hold when he saw any sort of potential pressure.  

None of this is on Dorsey or the oline, or the RBs, or the WRs. This is all on Josh. Dorsey called plays that had at least one outlet available, if Josh's first read wasn't open. You can see it in the film. Dorsey can't go out there and make the decisions for him. Maybe Josh needs to prepare better in the offseason. I know, I know, blasphemy. The plays were there for Josh to make. It's that simple. Questioning Dorsey after that performance by Josh is just ridiculous.

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

Scheme looked very well suited to the NYJ opponent. I simply don't agree with literally any of your Dorsey concerns. Film (as pointed out also by Greg Tompsett) shows that the available options were there for Josh. The 2nd and 15 run was explained by both Josh and coach McD last night post game, and makes 100% sense from a coaching perspective. Cook is exactly the type of back to be starting in this scheme as well. With that shotgun spread, you're gonna get TFL's, it comes with the territory. I love the 12 personnel options in our newly adjusted scheme and the plethora of short releases and options it provides in dictating to the defense.

 

The NYJ defense is apparently much better than you credit them for. They and SF are the best 2 I've seen in '23.

 

Josh was the issue last night. Period. This one is real simple, where some other times its a bit more complex, and multi-faceted.

 

All good, and look not discounting Allens poor decisions.  The pick on the sideline for example where he had Kincaid open underneath for the short gain but first down is a very good example of the poor choice.  Allen owns that and all 4 turnovers which were just flat out all bad choices.

 

But the other things I mentioned in my OP still concern me about Dorsey as much as they did last year.  There was supposed to be a renewed focus on running the ball and yet we are running the same style run game that has not been effective for 3 years now.  Why are we running draws with Allen and Cook instead of Harris or Murray?  Cook isn't a banger, not sure if he even broke a single tackle last night.  Get him to the outside and in space, don't bang him up the middle.  And he was drafted to be a big receiving threat, yet we barely get him any targets.  Where was the 12 personnel and TE involvement we were told was being inserted into this offense?  Especially against the Jets where that could attack the weakest part of the Jets D?  

 

Its one game, Allen made plenty of his own mistakes.  So not going to over react one way or the other.  But nothing about this offense felt different in how our pesonnel was used or how the game was called compared to last year.  And that to me needs to evolve as much as Allen needs to make better decisions.  

4 minutes ago, Bubba Gump said:

 

Dan Orlovsky. The Bills should offer him whatever he wants to leave ESPN. He sucked as a qb, but he is exceptionally smart. 

 

I could see Dan getting into it...don't want his first gig to be here, but I could see him being an OC if he wanted to be one.  But he shouldn't, he is very good on TV and will have more fun and better job security in TV lol

[appoo]

7 minutes ago, Dubie54 said:

Dorsey didn't take full advantage of his personnel last year and he's at it again. He doesn't appear to experienced and/or knowledgeable enough to make adjustments during the game as he demonstrated all last year, or prepare for what to expect. He should know the Jets defensive schemes from last year's games. No question they are a good defense but his play calling seemed to play into their hands.

 

For example, when Murray was in he looked good, yet we kept at it with Cook. Cook made some nice plays getting around the edge, but he's not physical enough to for the Jets defensive line. Why not run more with Murray or send him out into the flat? Murray had one reception for 8 yds and Harris had two for 16 yds.

 

We made some use of the TEs last night, but I have a hard time believing that with 2 guys always on Diggs deep that we couldn't find at least one of the TEs open underneath, consistently.

 

Where was Sherfield? No receptions and I don't recall any targets.

 

The wide screens there were trying to run with Harty were not working. He was targeted 4 times for 3 recp. and 9 yards. On the other hand, Kincaid was targeted 4 times, 4 recp. and 26 yards. Was Dorsey afraid of using the rookie too much? That's why we drafted him.

 

This team has plenty of offensive firepower, but in the hands of Dorsey I just think it will continue to be underutilized.   

 

   

Last night 7 Bills players had at least 2 catches, so I think that's a nice job of spreading the wealth

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, warrior9 said:

Nothing like this has been posted today.

This is also unique

[HoofHearted]

21 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but did you read my OP to start this thread?  Because I was pretty specific there

Sorry, I meant give specifics about what we are or are not doing within the scheme, not just general themes which you originally posted.

[Jerome007]

1 hour ago, davefan66 said:

Dorsey needs to call plays to tailor the game to what he believes will win.  Not call plays to appease Josh.

What? Great coaches design plays according to their players. Josh has strengths and weaknesses. Just like offense over all. You design Xs and Os according to your players. 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Last night Allen had one of his worst games in a long time.  So this is NOT to shift any responsibility of that from him to anyone else, Allen gets to own that performance, no excuses.  There were times where he was looking good and then all of a sudden this terrible decision happens to undo it all and give the ball away, he just can't do that.

 

However, I came away just as concerned with Dorsey and his play calling and use of personnel that I was last year.  Just to name a few:

• We go out and sign Harris and Murray then still call draws up the middle by our QB and small sized RB?  
• Where were all the 2 TE sets to put pressure on the weaker part of the Jets D?  
• Why are all our WRs running 15 yard deep routes on 3rd and short with only a RB underneath?  
• Where are the screens to guys like Cook, Harty, Diggs?  
• Why are we running on 2nd and 15 when we have the number offense over the past 3 years on picking up down and long plays via pass?  
• Where was the quick strike stuff we opened the game with Diggs on Sauce for the first play and completion?  
• Why are we still trying to force a run game from unconventional formations that didn't work in the past?  

 

I am not going to blame Dorsey for Allens poor decisions, those were all on Allen.  But, at the same time, I have not felt like Allen has played as free or instinctively under Dorsey as he did under Daboll.  I think about Mahomes in KC, when you watch the show Quarterback you just get some insight on just how involved Mahomes and the other players are in helping shape the offense and that its completely catered around everything Mahomes does best.  And more importantly, they give Mahomes a ton of options short and underneath with easy throws for RAC which is why he leads the NFL in most yards gained every year on throws near or behind the LOS and he leads by a mile.  

 

Since Dorsey got here, it feels more like trying to change Allen's instincts and thought process to be something different rather than leaning into what he does best like Daboll did.  I have long been concerned about risking Allen and Diggs prime on an unproven first time OC.  Last year I thought Dorsey was pretty bad in many facets of his job, especially in play calling inside the redzone and his use of personnel.  Week 1, nothing that happened changed those concerns.  Everything I was frustrated about last year in how this offense was run still all seemed present to me.  

 

Allen needs to be better with the football and stop trying to score on every play, there is no doubt about that.  But I also think our OC isn't doing him any favors either.  There is no way this team can take a step forward if Dorsey doesn't evolve positively from last year.  Week 1 felt like not much had changed, hope that doesn't continue.

I was waiting for the “I was wrong about Daboll” part of this post. Must have slipped your mind lmao.

 

Agreed with all of it though. Dorsey‘s offense is uninspiring at best.

[appoo]

I'll be honest, I didn't think Daboll's offense raised the team beyond the level of their talent. His biggest achievement was getting Josh to be Josh we saw the last 3 years - and a huge portion of that credit actually belongs to the lab work from Allen himself.  The Bills had a lot of the same struggles under Daboll that they had under Dorsey - namely a consistent running game and protecting the passer. Dorsey got stuck with a really poor OLine as well. If you remember, Daboll got pro-bowl caliber performances out of his tackles, and reasonable quality out of the interior. Dorsey has Trent Brown. 

 

The one area where I thougt Dorsey REALLY needed to be better about was getting the TEs more involved, after having paid Knox big money.