New year, same issues with play calling and use of personnel

[Bubba Gump]

25 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

All good, and look not discounting Allens poor decisions.  The pick on the sideline for example where he had Kincaid open underneath for the short gain but first down is a very good example of the poor choice.  Allen owns that and all 4 turnovers which were just flat out all bad choices.

 

But the other things I mentioned in my OP still concern me about Dorsey as much as they did last year.  There was supposed to be a renewed focus on running the ball and yet we are running the same style run game that has not been effective for 3 years now.  Why are we running draws with Allen and Cook instead of Harris or Murray?  Cook isn't a banger, not sure if he even broke a single tackle last night.  Get him to the outside and in space, don't bang him up the middle.  And he was drafted to be a big receiving threat, yet we barely get him any targets.  Where was the 12 personnel and TE involvement we were told was being inserted into this offense?  Especially against the Jets where that could attack the weakest part of the Jets D?  

 

Its one game, Allen made plenty of his own mistakes.  So not going to over react one way or the other.  But nothing about this offense felt different in how our pesonnel was used or how the game was called compared to last year.  And that to me needs to evolve as much as Allen needs to make better decisions.  

 

I could see Dan getting into it...don't want his first gig to be here, but I could see him being an OC if he wanted to be one.  But he shouldn't, he is very good on TV and will have more fun and better job security in TV lol

 

That's the problem. These guys that have the network gigs want to be as far away from a football field as possible. Just listening to Orlovsky today on OBL, he would be an incredible OC for any team if he wanted. He said something to the effect that there were 7 plays where he noticed Josh Allen looking real uncomfortable and not himself. You think Dorsey noticed that? Doubtful. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Bubba Gump

[MasterStrategist]

43 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

All good, and look not discounting Allens poor decisions.  The pick on the sideline for example where he had Kincaid open underneath for the short gain but first down is a very good example of the poor choice.  Allen owns that and all 4 turnovers which were just flat out all bad choices.

 

But the other things I mentioned in my OP still concern me about Dorsey as much as they did last year.  There was supposed to be a renewed focus on running the ball and yet we are running the same style run game that has not been effective for 3 years now.  Why are we running draws with Allen and Cook instead of Harris or Murray?  Cook isn't a banger, not sure if he even broke a single tackle last night.  Get him to the outside and in space, don't bang him up the middle.  And he was drafted to be a big receiving threat, yet we barely get him any targets.  Where was the 12 personnel and TE involvement we were told was being inserted into this offense?  Especially against the Jets where that could attack the weakest part of the Jets D?  

 

Its one game, Allen made plenty of his own mistakes.  So not going to over react one way or the other.  But nothing about this offense felt different in how our pesonnel was used or how the game was called compared to last year.  And that to me needs to evolve as much as Allen needs to make better decisions.  

 

I could see Dan getting into it...don't want his first gig to be here, but I could see him being an OC if he wanted to be one.  But he shouldn't, he is very good on TV and will have more fun and better job security in TV lol

I thought the only thing Dorsey could have done differently, was put Josh under center more - work a bit more diverse running attack/playaction.  We saw 1x hitting Gabe with this, resulted in a big gain.

 

Dorsey must have been concerned with the DL getting there on 5 step drops (under center), so he went mostly gun and quicker route concepts.

 

Honestly, alot of posters here wanted a quick passing game and that was our plan.  Josh didn't execute, plain and simple.  He wasn't seeing the field well at all, held the ball too long, and most costly were the turnovers.

 

We had guys open, as others pointed out/shared screen shots.  Josh didn't see them/anticipate it.  

 

1. Dorsey did work a good amount of 12 personell, at least I thought.  It just wasn't under center.  

2. Cook usage/Rbs: hard to run outside against the Jets, with their DL alignment and fast LBs. So you'd say, let's run Harris/Murray more...perhaps, but that takes away another weapon and Jets also know those guys aren't running inside or near the pass catching threats.  Cook got targeted on several passing plays, 1 of which should have been a TD if Josh leads him

 

IMO, Josh bears the brunt of most blame.  Dorsey, sure he's part of it, OL as well.  I'm sure they'll evaluate what happened.  But Josh ultimately turned it over 4 times, mostly on poor decision making.  Not sure I'd correlate that to Dorsey, but perhaps there's something to be said of getting him more support/someone in his ear on sideline (so as to not let the turnovers compound- 1 or 2 fine, but 4 is not near acceptable)

[Alphadawg7]

11 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

I thought the only thing Dorsey could have done differently, was put Josh under center more - work a bit more diverse running attack/playaction.  We saw 1x hitting Gabe with this, resulted in a big gain.

 

Dorsey must have been concerned with the DL getting there on 5 step drops (under center), so he went mostly gun and quicker route concepts.

 

Honestly, alot of posters here wanted a quick passing game and that was our plan.  Josh didn't execute, plain and simple.  He wasn't seeing the field well at all, held the ball too long, and most costly were the turnovers.

 

We had guys open, as others pointed out/shared screen shots.  Josh didn't see them/anticipate it.  

 

1. Dorsey did work a good amount of 12 personell, at least I thought.  It just wasn't under center.  

2. Cook usage/Rbs: hard to run outside against the Jets, with their DL alignment and fast LBs. So you'd say, let's run Harris/Murray more...perhaps, but that takes away another weapon and Jets also know those guys aren't running inside or near the pass catching threats.  Cook got targeted on several passing plays, 1 of which should have been a TD if Josh leads him

 

IMO, Josh bears the brunt of most blame.  Dorsey, sure he's part of it, OL as well.  I'm sure they'll evaluate what happened.  But Josh ultimately turned it over 4 times, mostly on poor decision making.  Not sure I'd correlate that to Dorsey, but perhaps there's something to be said of getting him more support/someone in his ear on sideline (so as to not let the turnovers compound- 1 or 2 fine, but 4 is not near acceptable)

 

I don't disagree with much of anything here, and you're not wrong, loss is more on Josh than anyone.  However, I went in really watching for the things that had me concerned from last year about Dorsey, and I just felt like I was still seeing a lot of them.  

 

For example, I am not saying run Harris/Murray more and take Cook off the field, I am saying why are we still calling draw plays into the teeth of the defense with Allen and Cook when we have better options to put out there for those kinds of plays.  Cook can't break a tackle to save his life, we have always needed better ground game in terms of the tougher yards, yet we still call Cook and Allens numbers more often to get those despite Cook unable to break tackles and Allen being fumble prone and our QB who doesn't need all the additional contact as he generates enough on his own.  

 

We have these 2 matchup weapons at TE, but how many targets did they get?  And I agree that Allen and his decision making is a factor here, but also we don't know where those receivers that we saw open were are in his reads.  If the first 2 or 3 reads are elsewhere it could be why he isn't seeing them too before firing somewhere else where he thinks he can make the play.

 

For example, it was a mistake to throw that 3rd pick when he had Kincaid open for the short gain for the first on the same side of the field. But if Kincaid there is like his 3rd read and he thought he had a window on his previous read, he isn't going to see Kincaid before firing the ball.  There is not time to go through all your reads then come back to the one you think is the most open because they won't be open anymore.  

 

So that is where we don't really know what is going on as it feels like all the early reads are all downfield, and that is play design issues if so.  Why aren't we prioritizing the short throw, why aren't they the first read or at least 2nd read more often?  And you can tell they aren't because of how Josh drops back and looks downfield and gives that time to develop.  If the short option was a primary read, it would be a quick strike ball like the first play of the game on the quick strike slant to Diggs on Sauce.  But that just isn't the case on most plays where Allen drops back, a deep drop most times, and is first looking down field where he then tries and comes back to find a short outlet or someone breaking off a route to come back to him as he rolls out.

 

That was one of my biggest issues last year is that the offense was way too reliant on the plays where Allen extends them and the receivers come back and break off routes.  Our guys were not winning on routes initially enough and we also were looking too much to push the ball downfield.  All defenses need to do now is disrupt the deep ball and our offense goes off schedule and we get into down and long too often.  

[Dubie54]

Spreading it around is one thing - the quality of the play calling is another. Simply spreading it around doesn’t mean a thing unless you use plays to maximize your opportunities. 
 

I think they missed numerous opportunities by not utilizing the TEs more. 

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, Chaos said:

At one point Allen was 17/21.  People wetting their pants like he was terrible the whole game is stupid. 

 

It was a bizarre game because he was an efficient passer, but the 4 mistakes he made were massive. Also the hits on the run and sacks he took won't show up on his stats but some of those were on him. It wasn't as bad as the reaction makes it out to be but all of those mistakes wipe out everything else.

[Dick_Cheney]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The 17/21 is also deceiving… they were dink and dunk or designed passes for the most part and he just looked off and skittish the entire night. 

Dink and dunk passes were what we needed more of.

[LABILLBACKER]

5 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I posted this in another thread and I think it makes perfect sense.  According to Brown, this is repeatedly told to Allen by McDermott/Dorsey.

 

I think Chris Brown on WGR just said it perfectly.

 

He said he had a conversation with a long time veteran Coach.  This coach said "the difference between the NFL and college football is College Football is about touchdowns, NFL is about first downs."  When you get to the redzone, then you worry about TD's.  This is the efficiency model that rode Brady to 7 rings and what Mahomes did last year.  

Hero ball Josh wants to skip the 1st downs and go right to the bomb. He could've easily ran for a 1st down on that opening int (Harty).  They gotta just keep hammering it into his head.  Part of him maturing (and not regressing) as a veteran qb is to "do it" and stop talking about doing it. 

[HappyDays]

8 minutes ago, Dick_Cheney said:

Dink and dunk passes were what we needed more of.

 

In this game, yes. We needed one more FG to pull this one out.  In most games that isn't going to work though. We can't make a living throwing 2 yard horizontal passes to the likes of Deonte Harty and James Cook. I don't understand where our intermediate game is. Everything is 5 yards or less, or 20+ yards down the field. Allen is the best intermediate thrower I've ever seen. In games against better offenses we have to find more production in that money area.

 

Like there were two 3rd downs where Allen threw the ball to the open RB in the flat, once to Harris once to Cook. Both got tackled short of the sticks. An offense can't make a living off of throws like that. So while I'm frustrated with Allen's mistakes I'm not going to sit here and say the solution is to reduce his average air yards to 5 yards per pass. That isn't going to work, certainly not with this group of weapons.

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by HappyDays

[DCofNC]

Maybe, just maybe, those statements about Josh not putting in the preparation time and relying on ability aren’t as far fetched as we want to think.

 

I think Allen needs a stronger coach that will hold him accountable, when he’s getting to pick his coach and take on play calling in pre-season, I wonder if he’s not more of a spoiled brat vs the disciplined QB we need.  Doesn’t seem like he and Dorsey are on the same page, maybe that’s because Allen sees him as a buddy not an authority figure.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Allen did it in 2019 with Beasley and Brown. 

 

Shortened the average depth of target and worked the middle of the field. 

 

The are small spurts of "creativity" (such a low-bar for this team) motioning Shakir behind the LOS presnap for instance, flare routes to Harty, pitch sweeps to Cook, like you said Diggs on a slant, a little Daboll 4-wide in the beginning of the game.

 

But that stuff just evaporates as the game goes along. We go into a static Pro-Set with no motion, 2 wide receivers, tighter bunches. 

 

This offense doesn't utilize crossing routes or drags. There is no rhythm. It just breaks down to ill-timed runs and Josh running and chucking. 

 

No Khalil Shakir because this coaching staff hates him, but we have Latavius Murray operating in the slot? 

 

 

 

 

[Buffalo Super Fan]

There is no time to panic about the New York Jets loss. It’s still a long season for the Buffalo Bills to be played out. Starting with a win at home against the Las Vegas Raiders will help. Also remember all the Buffalo Bills have to do is win the AFC East Division to get into the Super Bowl tournament. So long term I still like the Buffalo Bills chances in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

In this game, yes. We needed one more FG to pull this one out.  In most games that isn't going to work though. We can't make a living throwing 2 yard horizontal passes to the likes of Deonte Harty and James Cook. I don't understand where our intermediate game is. Everything is 5 yards or less, or 20+ yards down the field. Allen is the best intermediate thrower I've ever seen. In games against better offenses we have to find more production in that money area.

 

Like there were two 3rd downs where Allen threw the ball to the open RB in the flat, once to Harris once to Cook. Both got tackled short of the sticks. An offense can't make a living off of throws like that. So while I'm frustrated with Allen's mistakes I'm not going to sit here and say the solution is to reduce his average air yards to 5 yards per pass. That isn't going to work, certainly not with this group of weapons.

 

But in a game where Zach Wilson is the emergency backup QB, another FG would have sealed the deal. As I have said in other threads, look at Murray’s fumble stats in the last 750 or so carries: one fumble. And he breaks tackles.

[Bermuda Triangle]

6 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

No kidding

 

He made 3 mistakes and they were massive

 

Rest of the time he was going exactly what people here claim they want to see😂😂

 

3 mistakes?

[Dan in Owego]

7 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I posted this in another thread and I think it makes perfect sense.  According to Brown, this is repeatedly told to Allen by McDermott/Dorsey.

 

I think Chris Brown on WGR just said it perfectly.

 

He said he had a conversation with a long time veteran Coach.  This coach said "the difference between the NFL and college football is College Football is about touchdowns, NFL is about first downs."  When you get to the redzone, then you worry about TD's.  This is the efficiency model that rode Brady to 7 rings and what Mahomes did last year.  

The NFL is largely a field position game, which as we saw last night is the truth witness overtime 3 and out deep in your own end crappy punt and game over.

[Luka]

34 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Maybe, just maybe, those statements about Josh not putting in the preparation time and relying on ability aren’t as far fetched as we want to think.

 

I think Allen needs a stronger coach that will hold him accountable, when he’s getting to pick his coach and take on play calling in pre-season, I wonder if he’s not more of a spoiled brat vs the disciplined QB we need.  Doesn’t seem like he and Dorsey are on the same page, maybe that’s because Allen sees him as a buddy not an authority figure.

 

This is my thought as well. He's got a lot of yes men now, instead of coaches. His time committments outside of football could be a big part of it as well. Not hungry in the offseason anymore. Busy doing commercials, dating actresses etc.

 

I love Josh but something is up in the background and it has really affected his play on the field. That could be the rift between him and Diggs for all we know. 

 

In his defense, I don't think Josh anticipated Dorsey making so many changes, I think his thought process was Dorsey will just come in and call Daboll's plays and that hasn't happened. And with McDermott focusing on the defense now, Dorsey is the top guy and he had never proven that he could be an NFL cooridnator, let alone an assisstant head coach in some capacity. The front office really should've had a hiring process for the offensive coordinator position, someone experienced enough to fill the assistant head coach position that Fraizer vacated. Someone that commands some respect, for lack fo a better term.

 

The team seems more and more dysfunctional, which is in stark contrast to when McDermott took over and that was the first thing I think fans noticed, was how prepared his teams were in the past.

[Fan in Chicago]

6 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

No kidding

 

He made 3 mistakes and they were massive

 

Rest of the time he was going exactly what people here claim they want to see😂😂

 

Yes, he was playing good football in the first half.  We had a decent sized lead at the half.  Even Peyton Manning implied that the game was out of hand for the Jets. Little did he nor anyone expect the second half debacle by Allen. If he kept playing like in the first half,  this would be a near blowout in our favor

[Julio Hopkins]

6 hours ago, appoo said:

I'll be honest, I didn't think Daboll's offense raised the team beyond the level of their talent. His biggest achievement was getting Josh to be Josh we saw the last 3 years - and a huge portion of that credit actually belongs to the lab work from Allen himself.  The Bills had a lot of the same struggles under Daboll that they had under Dorsey - namely a consistent running game and protecting the passer. Dorsey got stuck with a really poor OLine as well. If you remember, Daboll got pro-bowl caliber performances out of his tackles, and reasonable quality out of the interior. Dorsey has Trent Brown. 

 

The one area where I thougt Dorsey REALLY needed to be better about was getting the TEs more involved, after having paid Knox big money. 

Dabol knew the offensive line was the major weakness.  That’s why he didn’t run the ball conventionally.  
 

Instead, he moved the chains with an insanely effective short passing game supplemented with QB designed runs.  Dorsey hasn’t been able to replicate that short passing game.  
 

Which would be fine if they had a competent offensive line but Beane has failed miserably on that front.  

Edited September 13, 2023 by Julio Hopkins

[Bubba Gump]

6 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

I thought the only thing Dorsey could have done differently, was put Josh under center more - work a bit more diverse running attack/playaction.  We saw 1x hitting Gabe with this, resulted in a big gain.

 

Dorsey must have been concerned with the DL getting there on 5 step drops (under center), so he went mostly gun and quicker route concepts.

 

Honestly, alot of posters here wanted a quick passing game and that was our plan.  Josh didn't execute, plain and simple.  He wasn't seeing the field well at all, held the ball too long, and most costly were the turnovers.

 

We had guys open, as others pointed out/shared screen shots.  Josh didn't see them/anticipate it.  

 

1. Dorsey did work a good amount of 12 personell, at least I thought.  It just wasn't under center.  

2. Cook usage/Rbs: hard to run outside against the Jets, with their DL alignment and fast LBs. So you'd say, let's run Harris/Murray more...perhaps, but that takes away another weapon and Jets also know those guys aren't running inside or near the pass catching threats.  Cook got targeted on several passing plays, 1 of which should have been a TD if Josh leads him

 

IMO, Josh bears the brunt of most blame.  Dorsey, sure he's part of it, OL as well.  I'm sure they'll evaluate what happened.  But Josh ultimately turned it over 4 times, mostly on poor decision making.  Not sure I'd correlate that to Dorsey, but perhaps there's something to be said of getting him more support/someone in his ear on sideline (so as to not let the turnovers compound- 1 or 2 fine, but 4 is not near acceptable)

 

The Bills lead the league in turnovers after 1 week. But the Bills don't lead the league. Josh Allen does. Too bad it's a team Stat. I had flashbacks to his rookie season. 

[davefan66]

12 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

What? Great coaches design plays according to their players. Josh has strengths and weaknesses. Just like offense over all. You design Xs and Os according to your players. 

Correct.  But stop calling plays that may get Josh in trouble if he’s having an off game.  Tailor the plays to boost confidence and maybe get smaller chunks of yatds.

 

Ultimately, it is on Josh to make the play.  Not Chuck it long into double coverage for an int, or any other of his poor decisions.

[Jerome007]

17 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

I thought the only thing Dorsey could have done differently, was put Josh under center more

The two new guards should allow for more of that. Dorsey feared the DT of the Jets, with good reason. But again, these two new G are quite an improvement and we should see more of Josh under center. It would be much better  for the RBs too.

 

It's the same as the mentioning that Josh looked "uncomfortable in 7 plays called". This is game 1! Unless they are that incompetent, they will adjust and tweak.