New year, same issues with play calling and use of personnel

[Alphadawg7]

Last night Allen had one of his worst games in a long time.  So this is NOT to shift any responsibility of that from him to anyone else, Allen gets to own that performance, no excuses.  There were times where he was looking good and then all of a sudden this terrible decision happens to undo it all and give the ball away, he just can't do that.

 

However, I came away just as concerned with Dorsey and his play calling and use of personnel that I was last year.  Just to name a few:

• We go out and sign Harris and Murray then still call draws up the middle by our QB and small sized RB?  
• Where were all the 2 TE sets to put pressure on the weaker part of the Jets D?  
• Why are all our WRs running 15 yard deep routes on 3rd and short with only a RB underneath?  
• Where are the screens to guys like Cook, Harty, Diggs?  
• Why are we running on 2nd and 15 when we have the number offense over the past 3 years on picking up down and long plays via pass?  
• Where was the quick strike stuff we opened the game with Diggs on Sauce for the first play and completion?  
• Why are we still trying to force a run game from unconventional formations that didn't work in the past?  

 

I am not going to blame Dorsey for Allens poor decisions, those were all on Allen.  But, at the same time, I have not felt like Allen has played as free or instinctively under Dorsey as he did under Daboll.  I think about Mahomes in KC, when you watch the show Quarterback you just get some insight on just how involved Mahomes and the other players are in helping shape the offense and that its completely catered around everything Mahomes does best.  And more importantly, they give Mahomes a ton of options short and underneath with easy throws for RAC which is why he leads the NFL in most yards gained every year on throws near or behind the LOS and he leads by a mile.  

 

Since Dorsey got here, it feels more like trying to change Allen's instincts and thought process to be something different rather than leaning into what he does best like Daboll did.  I have long been concerned about risking Allen and Diggs prime on an unproven first time OC.  Last year I thought Dorsey was pretty bad in many facets of his job, especially in play calling inside the redzone and his use of personnel.  Week 1, nothing that happened changed those concerns.  Everything I was frustrated about last year in how this offense was run still all seemed present to me.  

 

Allen needs to be better with the football and stop trying to score on every play, there is no doubt about that.  But I also think our OC isn't doing him any favors either.  There is no way this team can take a step forward if Dorsey doesn't evolve positively from last year.  Week 1 felt like not much had changed, hope that doesn't continue.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[Success]

It was hard to tell from yesterday. Allen just made so many mistakes. If he only throws that 1st pick, we win going away, and there is no hand-wringing today.

 

I'm not good at analysis & x's and o's stuff.  But my general feeling after the game is that Dorsey came in w/ a plan for the game, and didn't really adjust based on how the game progressed, and what wasn't working.  

 

That's very much just an impression, though. Like I said - if Allen was better, we'd probably feel okay about Dorsey today.  Maybe not full faith, but there wouldn't be the questions that we all seem to have.

 

[starrymessenger]

Brady should be Allen’s OC. 

Tom Brady.

[Royale with Cheese]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Last night Allen had one of his worst games in a long time.  So this is NOT to shift any responsibility of that from him to anyone else, Allen gets to own that performance, no excuses.  There were times where he was looking good and then all of a sudden this terrible decision happens to undo it all and give the ball away, he just can't do that.

 

However, I came away just as concerned with Dorsey and his play calling that I was last year.  We go out and sign Harris and Murray then still call draws up the middle by our QB and small sized RB?  Where were all the 2 TE sets to put pressure on the weaker part of the Jets D?  Why are all our WRs running 15 yard deep routes on 3rd and short with only a RB underneath?  Where are the screens to guys like Cook, Harty, Diggs?  Why are we running on 2nd and 15 when we have the number offense over the past 3 years on picking up down and long plays via pass?  Where was the quick strike stuff we opened the game with Diggs on Sauce for the first play and completion?  Why are we still trying to force a run game from unconventional formations that didn't work in the past?  

 

I am not going to blame Dorsey for Allens poor decisions, those were all on Allen.  But, at the same time, I have not felt like Allen has played as free or instinctively under Dorsey as he did under Daboll.  I think about Mahomes in KC, when you watch the show Quarterback you just get some insight on just how involved Mahomes and the other players are in helping shape the offense and that its completely catered around everything Mahomes does best.  And more importantly, they give Mahomes a ton of options short and underneath with easy throws for RAC which is why he leads the NFL in most yards gained every year on throws near or behind the LOS and he leads by a mile.  

 

Since Dorsey got here, it feels more like trying to change Allen's instincts and thought process to be something different rather than leaning into what he does best like Daboll did.  I have long been concerned about risking Allen and Diggs prime on an unproven first time OC.  Last year I thought Dorsey was pretty bad in many facets of his job, especially in play calling inside the redzone and his use of personnel.  Week 1, nothing that happened changed those concerns.  Everything I was frustrated about last year in how this offense was run still all seemed present to me.  

 

Allen needs to be better with the football and stop trying to score on every play, there is no doubt about that.  But I also think our OC isn't doing him any favors either.  There is no way this team can take a step forward if Dorsey doesn't evolve positively from last year.  Week 1 felt like not much had changed, hope that doesn't continue.

 

I posted this in another thread and I think it makes perfect sense.  According to Brown, this is repeatedly told to Allen by McDermott/Dorsey.

 

I think Chris Brown on WGR just said it perfectly.

 

He said he had a conversation with a long time veteran Coach.  This coach said "the difference between the NFL and college football is College Football is about touchdowns, NFL is about first downs."  When you get to the redzone, then you worry about TD's.  This is the efficiency model that rode Brady to 7 rings and what Mahomes did last year.  

[Logic]

I agree with @Success.

It's hard to make judgements on the play calls or play design after last night's game. 

The main reason for me is that when I go back and re-watch negative plays -- interceptions, sacks, throwaways -- I often see open receivers. It's hard for me to fault the OC too much when players are open (often short, yes) and Josh is refusing to throw it to them. If the plays Dorsey is calling have open receivers and Josh just isn't hitting them, it's hard for me to call it a Dorsey problem.

What I AM beginning to question is Dorsey's ability to coach Josh Allen the way he needs to be coached. As buddy-buddy as Josh was with Daboll, Josh would be the first to tell you that Daboll didn't hesitate to chew him out when he was being dumb. I think Daboll had a great feel for reigning in Bad Josh and harnessing Good Josh. Dorsey doesn't seem to have that feel. I'm starting to feel like Daboll was a very big reason that Josh had an all-world stretch of play in 2020 and 2021, and that Dorsey's lack of understanding of how to harness Josh's abilities and limit his negative tendencies in the same way are going to continue to mean that we see less Elite Josh and more Roller Coaster Josh, and that he's going to regress back to being the player the haters always told us he was.

THAT'S my concern. Less the play design and play calls, and more the actual COACHING of Josh Allen. 

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, Success said:

It was hard to tell from yesterday. Allen just made so many mistakes. If he only throws that 1st pick, we win going away, and there is no hand-wringing today.

 

I'm not good at analysis & x's and o's stuff.  But my general feeling after the game is that Dorsey came in w/ a plan for the game, and didn't really adjust based on how the game progressed, and what wasn't working.  

 

That's very much just an impression, though. Like I said - if Allen was better, we'd probably feel okay about Dorsey today.  Maybe not full faith, but there wouldn't be the questions that we all seem to have.

 

 

Fair, but I was already complaining about Dorsey all first half when Allen just had the one INT.  Me and some buddies all were saying the same thing...it doesn't feel like Dorsey evolved much from last year in how he calls plays.  

 

If we win that game and Allen has just the one INT and Dorsey calls the same game, I still would have the same concerns that I mentioned above in my OP.  I hope to see more next week, and Allen playing better will help evaluate it for sure.  But Dorsey was one of the things I was watching the most coming into this game and what I saw from the offense in design, play calling, and use of personnel and I came away feeling like a repeat of last year.  

[davefan66]

That had all offseason to get it right.  Picked up where they left off.

 

Dorsey needs to call plays to tailor the game to what he believes will win.  Not call plays to appease Josh.

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

I agree with @Success.

It's hard to make judgements on the play calls or play design after last night's game. 

The main reason for me is that when I go back and re-watch negative plays -- interceptions, sacks, throwaways -- I often see open receivers. It's hard for me to fault the OC too much when players are open (often short, yes) and Josh is refusing to throw it to them. If the plays Dorsey is calling have open receivers and Josh just isn't hitting them, it's hard for me to call it a Dorsey problem.

What I AM beginning to question is Dorsey's ability to coach Josh Allen the way he needs to be coached. As buddy-buddy as Josh was with Daboll, Josh would be the first to tell you that Daboll didn't hesitate to chew him out when he was being dumb. I think Daboll had a great feel for reigning in Bad Josh and harnessing Good Josh. Dorsey doesn't seem to have that feel. I'm starting to feel like Daboll was a very big reason that Josh had an all-world stretch of play in 2020 and 2021, and that Dorsey's lack of understanding of how to harness Josh's abilities and limit his negative tendencies in the same way are going to continue to mean that we see less Elite Josh and more Roller Coaster Josh, and that he's going to regress back to being the player the haters always told us he was.

THAT'S my concern. Less the play design and play calls, and more the actual COACHING of Josh Allen. 

 

Fair points here...and still comes back to is Dorsey the right guy to oversee Allen and Diggs prime years.  He has no experience as an OC until now, and how is he going to handle coaching Josh moving forward to get him back to where he was because Allen looks less sure out there even on successful plays than he did in years past.

[warrior9]

Nothing like this has been posted today.

[NickelCity]

Dorsey and Allen are not a good match. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I mean anyone concerned about Dorsey before the season would obviously still be concerned after that performance. 

[Figster]

Now Giants HC Brian Daboll's coaching success  with Josh Allen and the Buffalo Bills Offense stems from ingenuity. Without the innovative mind of Daboll and the ability to evolve and adapt Josh Allen and the Bills Offense is a shell of its former self. I sound like a broken record here,  Ryan Fitzpatrick can give Allen, Dorsey and the Bills O the added ingenuity and ability to adjust on the fly that is needed in my humble opinion. Ideally Buffalo would hire Chan Gailey, but that will never happen. Fitz is the next best thing in any capacity to assist Ken Dorsey IMO.

 

The Bills are following in the footsteps of what transpired with a previous championship caliber team in the JK era when we lost our innovative OC to a HC hire. Bills are repeating same mistake in my humble opinion.

 

And no, the no huddle will not fix Buffalo's lack of ingenuity at the OC position...

Edited September 12, 2023 by Figster

[appoo]

https://x.com/GregTompsett/status/1701645601253859501?s=20

 

 

 

[HoofHearted]

45 minutes ago, Logic said:

I agree with @Success.

It's hard to make judgements on the play calls or play design after last night's game. 

The main reason for me is that when I go back and re-watch negative plays -- interceptions, sacks, throwaways -- I often see open receivers. It's hard for me to fault the OC too much when players are open (often short, yes) and Josh is refusing to throw it to them. If the plays Dorsey is calling have open receivers and Josh just isn't hitting them, it's hard for me to call it a Dorsey problem.

What I AM beginning to question is Dorsey's ability to coach Josh Allen the way he needs to be coached. As buddy-buddy as Josh was with Daboll, Josh would be the first to tell you that Daboll didn't hesitate to chew him out when he was being dumb. I think Daboll had a great feel for reigning in Bad Josh and harnessing Good Josh. Dorsey doesn't seem to have that feel. I'm starting to feel like Daboll was a very big reason that Josh had an all-world stretch of play in 2020 and 2021, and that Dorsey's lack of understanding of how to harness Josh's abilities and limit his negative tendencies in the same way are going to continue to mean that we see less Elite Josh and more Roller Coaster Josh, and that he's going to regress back to being the player the haters always told us he was.

THAT'S my concern. Less the play design and play calls, and more the actual COACHING of Josh Allen. 

Doesn't help that Dorsey is in the box. Daboll was on the field with Allen. That makes a huge difference.

[Logic]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Fair points here...and still comes back to is Dorsey the right guy to oversee Allen and Diggs prime years.  He has no experience as an OC until now, and how is he going to handle coaching Josh moving forward to get him back to where he was because Allen looks less sure out there even on successful plays than he did in years past.

I agree. I definitely wonder if Dorsey is the right guy for the job.

That said, the problem is that I don't see an easy way out of this one in the short term.

Short of firing Dorsey and promoting an underling like Joe Brady, I don't see how they could make any meaningful change this season that wouldn't completely disrupt the offense and make things even worse. Furthermore, Josh likes Dorsey and personally advocated for his being hired as OC. Dorsey also presided over a top five scoring offense last season, so any kind of dismissal of his services this early would likely not be met kindly.

That means riding with Dorsey for this season, at least, and seeing if things improve. One very bad Josh Allen game, on the road against an elite defense, in week one of the season (see: Chiefs, Bengals, Giants) is not enough for me to close the book on Dorsey yet.

But yes...absolutely starting to wonder about his abilities as a COACH, more so than as a play designer/caller.

[colin]

dorsey is not great, and he's not good so far this year, but lets not pretend dabol won us a chip or something.

 

the total performance 2021 vs 2022 on O was about the same.  we just had less vol in 2022 so we won more games.  in our first two losses, we simply had too many red zone turnovers, so dorsey changed it up some and we got less.  it was more boring at times but the results were decent.

 

the one thing i'd put on dorsey last night was how we got smashed on 1st downs WAYYYYYYYY too much.  being behind the sticks was a bad look for us.

 

the rest of it is all allen.  we are gonna figure out the O as we go along, new players all over the pitch and all, but being a spaz in a game where your D is basically dominating is totally uncalled for.  the only real same issue we had was some bad run fits (tre white is kinda washed IMO) and allen just ignoring open guys to throw deep picks and then panic fumbling.

[Alphadawg7]

13 minutes ago, appoo said:

https://x.com/GregTompsett/status/1701645601253859501?s=20

 

 

 

 

This is fair, but why is Allen now not seeing those, why isn't he as comfortable in the offense?  I just think that Allen is not playing as free and instinctively as he was in years prior since Dorsey took over at OC.  

 

And like I said, Allen doesn't any excuses here, he made poor decisions, thats on him.  But the other issues I listed with Dorsey are still their own concerns as well.  

[HoofHearted]

46 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

But Dorsey was one of the things I was watching the most coming into this game and what I saw from the offense in design, play calling, and use of personnel and I came away feeling like a repeat of last year.  

Be specific. I keep seeing these grand remarks about Dorsey's poor play calling, use of personnel, lack of innovation, lack of complexity etc. but no one ever wants to site specific examples. How is it the same as last year?

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

Be specific. I keep seeing these grand remarks about Dorsey's poor play calling, use of personnel, lack of innovation, lack of complexity etc. but no one ever wants to site specific examples. How is it the same as last year?

 

No disrespect, but did you read my OP to start this thread?  Because I was pretty specific there

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This is fair, but why is Allen now not seeing those, why isn't he as comfortable in the offense?  I just think that Allen is not playing as free and instinctively as he was in years prior since Dorsey took over at OC.  

 

And like I said, Allen doesn't any excuses here, he made poor decisions, thats on him.  But the other issues I listed with Dorsey are still their own concerns as well.  

To me it looks like he is shook in in the pocket

 

Bailing early, zero faith protection will hold up, etc etc