Terry Pegula is ALLEGED to have said something very foul in the Jim Trotter lawsuit against the NFL

[colin]

the more i read about this, the more i think (and it's still not really clear to me) that trotter thinks he's got something on jones (i dunno if it's true or whatever, maybe it is) and the pegula thing and perhaps some other stuff in there is just padding to make it more of a bombshell.

 

this reminds me of like lore of old famous people or athletes and so on.  some interesting thing will happen and the story will get told and that interesting thing gets a little more interesting over time and other details get magnified and even changed over time.  it isn't even necessarily anyone being dishonest, or at least not intentionally dishonest, its just people remember the lore more than the event itself, even if it was on camera or what not.

 

goes to show the value of building and reinforcing a narrative.  if we don't have hard evidence and tests for the validity of things, perception can be and is (in many cases) much more important than reality.

[boyst]

27 minutes ago, colin said:

the more i read about this, the more i think (and it's still not really clear to me) that trotter thinks he's got something on jones (i dunno if it's true or whatever, maybe it is) and the pegula thing and perhaps some other stuff in there is just padding to make it more of a bombshell.

 

this reminds me of like lore of old famous people or athletes and so on.  some interesting thing will happen and the story will get told and that interesting thing gets a little more interesting over time and other details get magnified and even changed over time.  it isn't even necessarily anyone being dishonest, or at least not intentionally dishonest, its just people remember the lore more than the event itself, even if it was on camera or what not.

 

goes to show the value of building and reinforcing a narrative.  if we don't have hard evidence and tests for the validity of things, perception can be and is (in many cases) much more important than reality.

Who gives a ***** if he does?

 

If pegula said this then he should be punished for being stupid. That's it.

 

I can only imagine the reality of following 99% of this forum behind closed doors and in private settings. I'm sure a lot could be made to look bad, and we are not angles. No one is right all the time. I hope I'm not being obtuse drawing parallels to our lives and that of rich billionaires, in just trying to set the record straight no one is perfect. Many of these posts have been accute to the point.

[Mango]

3 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Oh it’s worse than that.  Wigdor/Trotter will have to introduce admissible and reliable evidence to support this allegation.  How?  Trotter’s testimony about what he heard second-hand is hearsay.  It can’t come in for its truth.  MAYBE they’ll try to get it in for something else (the NFL’s pattern and practice of failing to investigate allegations of racism?  good luck).  So most likely they’ll need to present a witness who can actually testify based on direct knowledge that this was said.  But we know that no such witness has been located yet.  Unless there’s a record of it (recording, or perhaps some internal contemporaneous NFL memo of a report made), this allegation will never actually be presented to a jury.  And Wigdor surely knows this - meaning he was fine destroying Pegula’s reputation for a few more headlines.

 

Doug Wigdor is a scum bag.

The way I understand it (not a lawyer) is that he doesn’t have to prove that because that’s not what’s up for debate. What is being argued is that the NFL didn’t follow up on his report to about both this and Jones in 2020. In fact I don’t think Trotter is publicly accusing of Pegula, he’s publicly accusing the league of not even looking into it, and then it costing him his job once he pressed them. 
 

I think there’s a flip side here that really annoys me, that if Trotter is correct on his lawsuit, the league is the one who is tearing  Pegula down by refusing due diligence to officially clear the situation. 

[Breakout Squad]

12 hours ago, AuntieEm said:

Well I don't think he was told he was getting a new contract.  I got that the hr person he spoke with had no reason to believe he wouldn't get a new contract but then not all hr personally are privy to the decision makers and how they make those decisions.

 

 

 

I’m sorry but what? Is this a response to my post because I’m not understanding.

[Coach Tuesday]

22 minutes ago, Mango said:

The way I understand it (not a lawyer) is that he doesn’t have to prove that because that’s not what’s up for debate. What is being argued is that the NFL didn’t follow up on his report to about both this and Jones in 2020. In fact I don’t think Trotter is publicly accusing of Pegula, he’s publicly accusing the league of not even looking into it, and then it costing him his job once he pressed them. 
 

I think there’s a flip side here that really annoys me, that if Trotter is correct on his lawsuit, the league is the one who is tearing  Pegula down by refusing due diligence to officially clear the situation. 

 

That's sort of right but it's complicated.

 

His claim is that he reported certain things to the NFL, the NFL didn't follow up on those reports and instead didn't renew his contract, in retaliation for his reporting.  In a nutshell.

 

So you're correct that under his theory, he doesn't have to prove that the things he told the NFL were true, just that he reported them and he was fired as a result.

 

But the specifics about what he told the NFL was hearsay (at least the Pegula part), and the league is surely going to object to it coming in that way.  I could see a judge saying, "Mr. Trotter, you can testify generally what you reported, but leave out the specifics, i.e., the name of the owner who you heard said something...", because the prejudicial impact of that evidence to the NFL (and Terry) outweighs its probative value.  Put simply: the specific report wasn't and isn't needed to prove up the claim.  Wigdor could've been responsible and respectful and pled the allegation like this: "On September 3, 2020 Trotter reported to the League that he had heard that one NFL owner used racist language."  That would be enough.  Putting in the specifics, which may well not be admissible at trial, was a needless hit-job/media attention exercise.

 

That's how I see it at least.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Coach Tuesday

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

It wasn't in a footnote.  It's article 5 in what appears to be the complaint's bill of particulars. #6 is the alleged direct quote of Jones.

 

So which "3rd world countries" might Pegula perhaps have said "something to the effect of" when referring the black NFL players as places they might otherwise live to compare freedoms?  Bolivia?   Laos?  Bangladesh?

Lol at your assumption that Pegula is guilty and digging into specific details of sentences when no one even knows if anything was actually said.  But….. Kraft inquiry was a witch hunt even though he was filmed getting a happy ending.  

[Motorin']

21 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

That's sort of right but it's complicated.

 

His claim is that he reported certain things to the NFL, the NFL didn't follow up on those reports and instead didn't renew his contract, in retaliation for his reporting.  In a nutshell.

 

So you're correct that under his theory, he doesn't have to prove that the things he told the NFL were true, just that he reported them and he was fired as a result.

 

But the specifics about what he told the NFL was hearsay (at least the Pegula part), and the league is surely going to object to it coming in that way.  I could see a judge saying, "Mr. Trotter, you can testify generally what you reported, but leave out the specifics, i.e., the name of the owner who you heard said something...", because the prejudicial impact of that evidence to the NFL (and Terry) outweighs its probative value.  Put simply: the specific report wasn't and isn't needed to prove up the claim.  Wigdor could've been responsible and respectful and pled the allegation like this: "On September 3, 2020 Trotter reported to the League that he had heard that one NFL owner used racist language."  That would be enough.  Putting in the specifics, which may well not be admissible at trial, was a needless hit-job/media attention exercise.

 

That's how I see it at least.

 

Here's the problem for Trotter. His law suit doesn't allege Terry made the statement. 

 

It asserts it as fact. And then it turns out he wasn't in the room to have direct knowledge. So he is basing his statement of fact on somebody else's word. 

 

So no, he doesn't have to prove anything about Terry for his overall law suit against the NFL.

 

However, he made a statement of fact that he has no direct evidence to know for certain if it is true or false. 

 

That's a very dangerous position to be in when the potential damage to Pegula is massive. He either must really trust his source to be 100% spot on, or not think there's any repercussions for being wrong. 

[SoMAn]

I haven't gone through the entire thread, so forgive me if these concerns have already been addressed.

 

In the suit, Trotter makes a claim of Pegula's racial statement, but doesn't give details of when or to whom it was said.

I'm pretty sure Pegula would never have said that to Trotter, if at all.

So, assuming it wasn't directed at Trotter, where does Trotter get this tidbit? Are we now making allegations in lawsuits based on second or third hand accounts? In criminal court this is defined as hearsay and is inadmissible.

 

Again, I don't know all the details, but I have a hard time understanding how anyone can claim the NFL and their network partners are racist when there's a hugely disproportional percentage (as compared to the US population) of minority hiring in the NFL as a whole.

I don't know what the numbers are for management and coaching. The representation of the behind the scenes people aren't as readily apparent to the casual viewer.

Every network commentator panel has more than fair representation of black commentators. Nearly every ad during the NBC broadcast Monday night featured minority actors and spokespeople.

 

Was he caught up in a numbers/budget scenario? Was he not completing assignments as required? Is it a case of a discontent (Trotter) making a money grab and hoping for a settlement to make him go away? Or is there actual merit?

 

I don't claim to know, but someone will have to explain to me where all this discrimination is occurring with the NFL and their partners. In my view, the NFL has been the model of equity and opportunity for minorities.  My impression is that Trotter is an A$$$hole and it's entire possible the Pegula statement is a fabrication of him and/or his legal representation.

 

If this is found to be without proof or merit, if I'm Pegula, I'm suing Trotter for defamation.

 

[Meatloaf63]

9 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

I believe Trotter is saying another reporter on a Zoom meeting relayed the allegation to 40 co-workers on the call. 

 

 

Then where are these 40 other people, would have been easy to find a few of them to collaborate the story…

8 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Even if Terry didn’t do it, he should get his players together and say that he apologizes for the distraction

He’s said enough, he doesn’t need to go an apologize for someone else’s BS.

[Augie]

23 hours ago, Roundybout said:

 

NFL reporter who filed a complaint about a lack of diversity after his NFL Network contract was not renewed

 

So, a guy with sour grapes. I don’t know what happened, and as always I’ll withhold judgement until we have something more firm than this allegation. Has this been corroborated in any way? I really don’t think Terry would be that ignorant, even if he felt that way (which I obviously hope he does not). 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

That's sort of right but it's complicated.

 

His claim is that he reported certain things to the NFL, the NFL didn't follow up on those reports and instead didn't renew his contract, in retaliation for his reporting.  In a nutshell.

 

So you're correct that under his theory, he doesn't have to prove that the things he told the NFL were true, just that he reported them and he was fired as a result.

 

But the specifics about what he told the NFL was hearsay (at least the Pegula part), and the league is surely going to object to it coming in that way.  I could see a judge saying, "Mr. Trotter, you can testify generally what you reported, but leave out the specifics, i.e., the name of the owner who you heard said something...", because the prejudicial impact of that evidence to the NFL (and Terry) outweighs its probative value.  Put simply: the specific report wasn't and isn't needed to prove up the claim.  Wigdor could've been responsible and respectful and pled the allegation like this: "On September 3, 2020 Trotter reported to the League that he had heard that one NFL owner used racist language."  That would be enough.  Putting in the specifics, which may well not be admissible at trial, was a needless hit-job/media attention exercise.

 

That's how I see it at least.

I get that to an extent.
 

But what’s up for debate is whether or not the league looked into fully once an official complaint was filed by one of its employees. I don’t know if it’s because Suits is trending again, but everybody is tossing around heresay. I’m no legal professional but I do not believe I need to meet the legal standard for a crime in order to submit an official complaint to my company and also receive an internal investigation. 

 

But to your specific point I don’t think if I quoted ann official complaint to my employer it qualifies as defamation. My goal in the original report would be a thorough investigation, but the result is losing my job.*
 

I get it from a Buffalo or Pegula standpoint. But I think it’s unintentionally myopic without much legal standing. HR doesn’t work for the employee they protect the employer. In theory an actual investigation would have put all this to bed. This is HR’s job. My guess is they didn’t do it because that would have provided an official paper trail. But now they likely don’t have much of a paper trail and are stuck in this position and a bit vulnerable to a much larger legal suit. 
 

*allegedly 

 

(also, again, not a lawyer)

58 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Here's the problem for Trotter. His law suit doesn't allege Terry made the statement. 

 

It asserts it as fact. And then it turns out he wasn't in the room to have direct knowledge. So he is basing his statement of fact on somebody else's word. 

 

I disagree here. What he asserts as facts are that somebody told him this and he filed an official complaint with his employer. He also asserts that the league didn’t thoroughly investigate. 
 

He reported heresay to his employer. He admits as much. Which I think (ouch!) is fine. Almost all HR complaints are void of email, video, or audio recordings. Complaints to your employer don’t need to meet the same criteria for a criminal or civil complaint. 
 

Just my $0.02

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Lost said:

 

In the context of @HappyDays post, if Terry's point was that NFL players can be spoiled brats, then he could have referenced literally any country.   Aside from a very small handful of soccer players, US has by far the highest paid athletes in the world and the best athletic programs.   Majority of Olympic athletes from nearly every competing country on earth except maybe China come to the US to train.   US is still the land of opportunity and biggest destination for most athletes.   

 

But we're debating 3rd party hearsay that has already mostly been debunked at this point.  

 

 

by whom?

1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said:

Lol at your assumption that Pegula is guilty and digging into specific details of sentences when no one even knows if anything was actually said.  But….. Kraft inquiry was a witch hunt even though he was filmed getting a happy ending.  

  that's incorrect.  I was responding to the hypothetical the poster posted.

 

Have someone help you with the reading.

[BillsUberAlles]

It's lucky that hearsay isn't really admissable as evidence and usually lawyers wipe the floor with those people on cross examination.

[AuntieEm]

2 hours ago, Breakout Squad said:

I’m sorry but what? Is this a response to my post because I’m not understanding.

Prob hit reply on wrong message.  I was commenting on the person who said trotter wasted he was getting a new contract when I read in the complaint he was only talking with a hr person who said they saw no reason he wouldn't be offered a new contract.  So I was stating he wasn't given a new one then had it cancelled.

 

 Basically I see Mr trotter as trying to extort some money or position  in exchange for silence in not giving the nfl a bad look.  Kinda like amber turd trying to make Johnny Depp the abuser when she was more abusive  he just maybe got verbally abusive to the turd she is. My opinion on that only u may  hold different view on that.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by AuntieEm

[beebe]

this story has been fairly quiet so far in the grand scheme of things. hasn't really been a major topic on the national shows best i can tell. when is the next media availability? that's probably the next layer. but to this point, no bills players have said anything right?

[Boatdrinks]

2 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Here's the problem for Trotter. His law suit doesn't allege Terry made the statement. 

 

It asserts it as fact. And then it turns out he wasn't in the room to have direct knowledge. So he is basing his statement of fact on somebody else's word. 

 

So no, he doesn't have to prove anything about Terry for his overall law suit against the NFL.

 

However, he made a statement of fact that he has no direct evidence to know for certain if it is true or false. 

 

That's a very dangerous position to be in when the potential damage to Pegula is massive. He either must really trust his source to be 100% spot on, or not think there's any repercussions for being wrong. 

Seems that Trotter believes the world, and more specifically the NFL owes him a living. 

[BillsFanSD]

4 minutes ago, beebe said:

this story has been fairly quiet so far in the grand scheme of things. hasn't really been a major topic on the national shows best i can tell. when is the next media availability? that's probably the next layer. but to this point, no bills players have said anything right?

It's not 2020 anymore, and my sense is that this playbook no longer works.  We'll see I guess.  The Buffalo news media still features a lot of the same people who bullied Matt Araiza out of town.  This will be a nice test to see how things have changed over the past 12 months.

[Dukestreetking]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

So you're correct that under his theory, he doesn't have to prove that the things he told the NFL were true, just that he reported them and he was fired as a result.

Coach: spot on w all of your analysis, including re Wigdor. Many thanks. Brief thought to add:

 

The case theory, per Statement, is strange: NFL as a "system"--owners, coaches, corporate, media leadership--is discriminatory, and profoundly centralized.

 

Simplistically put: because the system is so, my employment was not re-newed, I was harmed during my tenure, etc. Textually, they are linked.

 

And here's the things that support my theory of systemic bias: Gruden, my own management, Pegula, etc.

 

Given this, I would think he has to "prove" a preponderance of the beams and cement exist (i.e., allegations) in order to demonstrate the superstructure (i.e., system). I could be wrong, but that's the way it presents.

 

I won't get into the Causes of Action.

 

Anyway, I believe it's a flawed overall strategy. There's a skinnier way to get from A to B. This is to say nothing of the fact pattern issues.

 

@Bob Jones I'm not a lawyer but b/c of my background in a certain field, I review these all the time for case and deposition strategy/tactics, blah, blah.

[Mango]

Looks like Goodell recently said that these allegations have been looked into and will be looked into to make sure they aren’t true.  
 

A bit of a gaffe there

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/roger-goodell-addresses-jim-trotters-lawsuit-suggests-league-will-investigate

 

Quote

Goodell suggested the league will investigate the alleged statements made by Pegula and Jones, in order to “make sure they’re factual.” But then Goodell said the allegations have “been looked into.”

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Mango

[phypon]

If Terry is forced to sell it may be the only way we can get rid of McD....