Why Dorsey is not the answer

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I know it will, how often is what I'm curious about and it will be the same site, they are there and he doesn't take them.

 

Not turning this into an anti McDermott comment, but this is what happens when you have a defensive-minded HC vs an offensive-minded one, the offensive guy find success and leaves as an HC. I bring this up not as an argument to fire Sean and to keep Dabs, but it did appear Josh listened to Daboll. I also know our offense had funks with Daboll as well, but this is just feels a lot different.

 

Yeah, tough to get into the "shouldve kept Dabol as HC" argument (which I've made myself) after he was embarassed even worse this weekend.

 

However, I also believe he has a much better demeanor for coaching/handling Josh than Dorsey. Dorsey is too jittery, too frenetic, too always-wanting-to-take-a-deep-shot. Exact opposite of what Josh needs.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

It isn't.

 

Kincaid in the flat - 1st down.

Diggs on the crosser - 1st down. 

 

Tries to fit one in to Davis in double coverage. And again we can talk if we like about the way Davis ran that route... but that get us away from why we lost.

 

That is actually the one turnover he had that I am okay with... I think he was reading high to low and the CB cheated towards Kincaid so he threw the high read to Davis. If Davis had made Whitehead hesitate for even a half second he would have been open. I have seen Allen complete that exact read to Davis a dozen times. Unfortunately Whitehead had an easy read because of the route running and he made a good play on the ball.

 

The other two interceptions were careless and lazy heaves into double coverage. I will live with tight window throws that become interceptions. The random forced throws into double coverage is what Allen needs to clean up. On the fumble his head was out of the game at that point. He let a couple series of bad plays snowball into one more giant mistake.

 

They need to get a coach on the sidelines that is specifically talking to Allen after every failed drive. Last night he's sitting alone with Diggs in his face trying to snap him out of his funk. That is not a recipe conducive to getting his head back in the game.

[Reed83HOF]

16 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Yeah, tough to get into the "shouldve kept Dabol as HC" argument (which I've made myself) after he was embarassed even worse this weekend.

 

However, I also believe he has a much better demeanor for coaching/handling Josh than Dorsey. Dorsey is too jittery, too frenetic, too always-wanting-to-take-a-deep-shot. Exact opposite of what Josh needs.

 

Dorsey and Josh are cut from the same cloth, even Daboll was getting reigned in by Sean at times. I had issues with Daboll’s offense at times too....

 

Firing one coach to keep another rarely works out, but you do lose a lot of continuity on the opposite side of the ball and that appears to be a part of this allen regression. It's not that I'm all on Allen for a bad game, those happen, but as he said same shite different year and that's on him...

 

[jethro_tull]

I thought play calling was disconnected at best.  

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Dorsey and Josh are cut from the same cloth, even Daboll was getting reigned in by Sean at times. I had issues with Daboll’s offense at times too....

 

Firing one coach to keep another rarely works out, but you do lose a lot of continuity on the opposite side of the ball and that appears to be a part of this allen regression. It's not that I'm all on Allen for a bad game, those happen, but as he said same shite different year and that's on him...

 

 

It's easier with hindsight, but the idea of firing McD and Frazier after 13 seconds, promoting Dabol, and bringing in say Jim Schwartz as DC sure looks good right now.

 

Similar to the Falcons, when they should have fired Quinn and promoted Shanahan after the Super Bowl loss.

[vincec]

I thought Dorsey had a mostly legitimate game plan going into this game. The Bills OL was way overmatched, so they had a ton of short, quick throws to Cook, Diggs, Knox, Hardy and Kincaid in the plan, as well as quick hitting runs inside and to the edge. Sprinkle in a few deep balls and try to make a big play or two.

 

The Jets basically just said, “Fine, go ahead. Allen will lose patience with that.” And they were 100% right. Allen played like a rookie. He panicked when the initial read wasn’t there, ran into sacks and hits, and threw ridiculously I’ll advised passes.

 

My main problem with Dorsey is that Allen’s play had been on a steady downward trajectory since Daboll left.

Edited September 12, 2023 by vincec

[Franco_92]

Dorsey isn't flawless or blameless but the game would have been seen as competently scripted if allen had stuck with the script. We would have left with a 20-13 victory or something like it. Hoping that the offense opened up a bit against lesser opponents. 

[Xwnyer]

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It was a bad call. 

really?   LOL

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Xwnyer said:

really?   LOL

It happens.

[Xwnyer]

4 hours ago, BillsFan2313 said:

This game was on Josh. He wasn't seeing open guys all night and made some horrible throws when guys were open. 

hence why our receivers rank low on YAC>  so many passes are low or not lead properly to get the YAC guy has to reach low or high and than secure before taking off.  

[Low Positive]

2 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

What I have wanted from day 1 with Allen is the 15 Cam Newton panthers offense. The sickening part is we have that OC on our coaching staff….can we make Mike Shula the OC? 

A team can't install a new offense in week 2.

[whorlnut]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

And then calls a run on 2nd and 15 in OT.

 

Think about that!

I’m not mad about the run itself as much as I am the design. Cook is really good in space…why not a pitch?  Instead, we run right into the belly of their strength. 

[Xwnyer]

4 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

I think it's 90% Josh/10% Dorsey right now.

 

Concerns I have with Josh:

1. Not seeing the field as well as he needs to

2. Too ancy/not trusting the OL (OL does need to play better)

3. Mentally seems out of whack/not sure if this is him being too hard on himself. He just needs to be more confident and take what the defense is giving

4. Running: I think he's got to learn it's OK to run, but needs to protect his body/not take unnecessary hits

 

Dorsey:

1. I'm not a fan of lining up in shotgun 99% of the time: it limits running attack primarily

2. Absolutely need more playaction/roll outs

3. Screen game and creativity in general is severely lacking

4. Running game: I'm not a 50/50 advocate, but we do need alot more balance.  Especially helps the dline from just teeing off.  

 

Dorseys tendencies are basically the same issues I had with Daboll.  Daboll was more creative/did adjust 2nd half of 2021 into the playoffs.

 

Again alot of blame on Josh, but he's our entire offense.  Feel like taking a bit off his plate, could be beneficial in alot of ways.  Right now, it just seems like alot of mental stuff-and reverting back to feeling like he has to carry the offense.  Dorsey needs to be find that "balance", because it's not working against top tier defenses.

 

Daboll used fake sweeps and more motion.  Dorsey uses Motion to move a guy from one side to other not to do like Miami does with timing the motion and take off with the snap

[DrDawkinstein]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

And then calls a run on 2nd and 15 in OT.

 

Think about that!

 

Not just a run. A draw.

 

And not just any draw. A shotgun draw.

 

A run that starts 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage, and has the QB turn and hand the ball to a RB who is STANDING STILL.

 

 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

2 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

A team can't install a new offense in week 2.

You don’t need to install an entirely new offense but maybe a different guy can figure out which plays and formations to call within the structure of what we already have. Like Mike Shula. Who is here already 

[Brand J]

I find it comical the QB could play that bad - with open options we’re all seeing - and some of the complaints here are Dorsey, Dorsey, Dorsey. It’s Josh Allen, Josh Allen, Josh Allen. That’s why we lost, not Ken Dorsey. Any coordinator would be handcuffed if his starting QB plays that way, especially against a good defense. There aren’t any other easy layups Dorsey wasn’t utilizing because the layups the Jets were giving you, Josh wasn’t taking. 

[Xwnyer]

4 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

I’m not mad about the run itself as much as I am the design. Cook is really good in space…why not a pitch?  Instead, we run right into the belly of their strength. 

plus handoffs to a rb that is standing still probably are less effective than one where rb is moving when haded the ball.

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, JayBaller10 said:

I find it comical the QB could play that bad - with open options we’re all seeing - and some of the complaints here are Dorsey, Dorsey, Dorsey. It’s Josh Allen, Josh Allen, Josh Allen. That’s why we lost, not Ken Dorsey. Any coordinator would be handcuffed if his starting QB plays that way, especially against a good defense. There aren’t any other easy layups Dorsey wasn’t utilizing because the layups the Jets were giving you, Josh wasn’t taking. 

 

Hey, I have enough Bills fan experience to be able to complain about BOTH independently. Thank you very much!

 

And I also realize that, even with Josh's issues, given the way the League and Contracts are setup, Josh will likely out-live Dorsey, McD, and even Beane on the Bills roster.

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

And I also realize that, even with Josh's issues, given the way the League and Contracts are setup, Josh will likely out-live Dorsey, McD, and even Beane on the Bills roster.

No doubt about that. But if the Bills want to be a Super Bowl team Josh has to be the reason for winning the big game, not a liability like he was last night. He’s a 6 year pro bowl QB who just made the cover of Madden. Wake up, Josh! The whole non-Bills nation is laughing at you this morning.
It was far more Josh Allen and his faults than it was Ken Dorsey. 

[HappyDays]

Everybody is correct that Allen is much more to blame than Dorsey for last night's performance.

 

But, for argument's sake let's say we see more abysmal performances like last night. We simply can't move on from Josh Allen. So the only alternative is move on from Dorsey and bring on a hard a** OC that can hopefully scream some sense into Allen. Dorsey isn't some offensive savant. If he can't get through to Allen we shouldn't lose any sleep if we have to move on from him.

 

This is more a conversation for the end of the year, but if things continue heading in a poor direction then I agree Dorsey will have to be the sacrificial lamb.