Why Dorsey is not the answer

[ganesh]

On 9/12/2023 at 7:06 PM, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

We haven't agreed on a lot in the past, but we damned sure agree on this.

 

The plan was working, in the first half, allen was completing passes at a 70% clip, with only the one egregious error. Then his head ensconced itself firmly in the backside and he lost the script

 

or may be the Jets had better half-time adjustments

[PBF81]

On 9/12/2023 at 3:51 PM, BillsUberAlles said:

Allen has to start becoming OK with winning games ugly sometimes and not needing to blow teams out.

 

There is no reason this game should have been lost. Sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done to win the game and then go back to crushing teams next week.

 

Same issue as to when we almost lost to the Dolphins in the playoffs...Allen trying to crush them is what led to all the turnovers. It's one thing to go for the jugular. It's another to constantly try and force big plays instead of taking what's available.

 

Completely agree.  But again, isn't that an ongoing, five seasons now, coaching issue?  

 

Either McD & Dorsey have control of the situation, or they do not.  Those are the only two options.  

 

That reality seems apparent to me, but what do I know.  

 

 

[26TrapDraw]

On 9/12/2023 at 6:36 AM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It was a bad call. 

Yes that’s the point. A volunteer pop Warner coach wouldn’t call that draw play on 2nd and15 why would a Pro Offensive coordinator do it?

just asinine.

[Beck Water]

On 9/12/2023 at 8:32 PM, Buffalo716 said:

Hackett was the dual offensive coordinator and quarterback coach for Blake bortles

 

When Blake threw for over 4,000 yards and 35 touchdowns... Both would have been Bill's records pre Josh Allen

 

He also took the ghost of Kyle Orton and had him average 250 yards per game... And Sammy Watkins had the best year of his career playing for him... He didn't do anything wrong in Green Bay to mess up his resume

 

Despite what happened in Denver... Which Russell Wilson literally apologized for not going about it right... aka didn't try...

 

Hackett has had success at multiple stops... He helped Blake bortles throw for 35 touchdowns... That's scheming

 

 

 

Facts

When Blake Bortles threw for >4000 yards in 2015 in Jacksonville, Greg Olson was the offensive coordinator under Gus Bradley.

Hackett was the QB coach, not dual OC and QB coach, and Doug Marrone was in there somewhere as "Assistant HC/Offensive line"

 

It was Olson's 4th stint as OC, so I don't think he was believed to be a figurehead.  I don't know too much about him, other than that he seemed to be well thought of during a stint with the Rams and Bulgar, just after the "Mad Mike" Martz era.  But I don't think Hackett was the "ghost OC" for Olson, Olson wasn't a novice.

 

Hackett DID take over in Jax about midway through the 2016 season after Marrone got Gus Bradley fired, but that's always an ambiguous question how much the mid-season replacement is responsible for and also how much Hackett was responsible for as OC vs. Marrone (didn't Marrone call the plays?).  The Jags were 2-5 when Hackett took over as OC, and finished the season 3-13 so it's not like he "righted the ship" or anything.

On 9/12/2023 at 8:50 PM, Buffalo716 said:

 

Dorsey , had an unknown upside as a young coordinator with nothing on tape... And he was handed a top five scoring offense

 

So now it's on him to keep the reigns going and adjust

 

4,000 yards and 35 passing touchdowns is still a hell of a season even in 2023... Only three quarterbacks in the entire League last year would have qualified with both those statistics

 

So he did a tremendous job with that jags offense and bortles... Certainly the best part of his resume

 

Again - nothing against Hackett but he was QB coach only and Greg Olson was OC when Bortles threw for 4428 yds and 35 passing TDs.

So it's very much to his credit as a QB coach, but it's simply not on Hackett's resume as an OC

 

It would be analogous to giving Dorsey credit as OC for Josh Allen's 2020 and 2021 season - he was QB coach, he deserves credit for that, but not credit as OC

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[BillsUberAlles]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:32 PM, Buffalo716 said:

Hackett was the dual offensive coordinator and quarterback coach for Blake bortles

 

When Blake threw for over 4,000 yards and 35 touchdowns... Both would have been Bill's records pre Josh Allen

 

He also took the ghost of Kyle Orton and had him average 250 yards per game... And Sammy Watkins had the best year of his career playing for him... He didn't do anything wrong in Green Bay to mess up his resume

 

Despite what happened in Denver... Which Russell Wilson literally apologized for not going about it right... aka didn't try...

 

Hackett has had success at multiple stops... He helped Blake bortles throw for 35 touchdowns... That's scheming

 

 

 

I mean we averaged over 21 points a game with EJ Manuel, Jeff Tuel and Thad Lewis as our QBs under him.

 

That's not horrible.

Edited September 14, 2023 by BillsUberAlles

[dave mcbride]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

They weren't going to smash-mouth the Jets, dave.

 

Not sure what game you watched.   Wasn't going to happen at the level of execution they are at as an offensive line at this point.   Break out those inside gap runs versus the Raiders at home........not in the Jets game.    They needed to keep the chains moving and the options were there to do it all game.   3 runs and a punt *might* have gotten the job done but it leaves you vulnerable to one mistake on defense.  If Benford doesn't make that great hustle play the Jets would have had the lead a lot longer.   

I'm not saying run it every play; I'm saying shift to a run-heavy under-center mode with a non-fumbler, work in play action, and don't turn the goddamn ball over and you'll likely win. Murray never fumbles, and making safe passes on occasion gets you another field goal opportunity or two. It's not like they were passing to set up the run or running to set up the pass; they ran only to slow down the d-line pass rush (or so it seemed) and got into a chuck-and-duck mode that resulted in a ton of turnovers. The only way you lose to Zack Wilson with a ten-point lead is if you play high-risk pass-the-ball-75-percent-of-time-against-an-elite-pass-defense, and that's exactly what they did. Allen was horrible, but the game plan didn't change to account for circumstances and that's on the OC.

[BillsUberAlles]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Completely agree.  But again, isn't that an ongoing, five seasons now, coaching issue?  

 

Either McD & Dorsey have control of the situation, or they do not.  Those are the only two options.  

 

That reality seems apparent to me, but what do I know.  

 

 

 

Could it be that regardless of the occasional loss, they are still so successful with this method that there is little impedus for him to really change?

 

I mean they have the best record in the NFL since 2020.

[gobills1212]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:34 AM, MAJBobby said:

Yes thought about it. 
 

dorsey had a heck of a game plan for that defense. All Josh needed to do was take the open player. He didn’t. 
 

that is an often thing with him and will get put in the OC. 
 

just like it did with Daboll and now it is with Dorsey. I think people need to start putting a lot of the blame on the shoulders of 17 where it belongs 

I dont see how anyone rational can disagree with this. Was it the most fun to watch? No. Was it fristrating at time watching him repeatedly run Cook at Williams rather than get in space or seemingly call a run play just because he hadnt called on in a while like in OT? No. But the script was there. Josh just got sick of or too impatient to keep doing what he himself was preaching in taking what the D gave him. All Dorse can do is call the plays. To judge him bc his qb went off script is judging him falsely.  Are there issues? Sure. Rather than having someone who grounds him I think KC encourages him but thats not whats being discussed. You couldnt have spoken truer words and it amazes me people could disagree

[PBF81]

14 minutes ago, BillsUberAlles said:

Could it be that regardless of the occasional loss, they are still so successful with this method that there is little impedus for him to really change?

 

I mean they have the best record in the NFL since 2020.

 

That's kind of an eyes of the beholder question, but imo absolutely.  In fact that's exactly it as I view it.  

 

Having said that, where would we be with most other QBs besides Allen?  Not there.  Imagine how we'd be with Orton, Manuel, Fitzpatrick, Edwards, Losman, Holcomb or Bledsoe.  No way we'd be making the playoffs.  McD did worse offensively with Taylor than his predecessor did.  Both Taylor and the offense by about 100 points, and dropping a dozen spots in the offensive rankings.  

 

But consider, what happens in the playoffs?  If Allen doesn't go bananas we typically lose.  He's personally and almost singlehandedly responsible for 3 of McD's playoff wins.  The fourth wouldn't have happened without one of those.  

 

So "best record" is one thing.  The ability to compete in the playoffs without your QB having to do just about everything is entirely another. 

 

That's gotta be an enormous mental burden for Allen, that quite frankly, shouldn't be there on him personally like that.  

 

 

[Low Positive]

Fans of every team complain about the offensive playcalling, especially after a loss. Here's a thread of Bengals fans complaining about offensive genius Zach Taylor: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Outcoached--36362

[Buffalo716]

3 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Facts

When Blake Bortles threw for >4000 yards in 2015 in Jacksonville, Greg Olson was the offensive coordinator under Gus Bradley.

Hackett was the QB coach, not dual OC and QB coach, and Doug Marrone was in there somewhere as "Assistant HC/Offensive line"

 

It was Olson's 4th stint as OC, so I don't think he was believed to be a figurehead.  I don't know too much about him, other than that he seemed to be well thought of during a stint with the Rams and Bulgar, just after the "Mad Mike" Martz era.  But I don't think Hackett was the "ghost OC" for Olson, Olson wasn't a novice.

 

Hackett DID take over in Jax about midway through the 2016 season after Marrone got Gus Bradley fired, but that's always an ambiguous question how much the mid-season replacement is responsible for and also how much Hackett was responsible for as OC vs. Marrone (didn't Marrone call the plays?).  The Jags were 2-5 when Hackett took over as OC, and finished the season 3-13 so it's not like he "righted the ship" or anything.

 

Again - nothing against Hackett but he was QB coach only and Greg Olson was OC when Bortles threw for 4428 yds and 35 passing TDs.

So it's very much to his credit as a QB coach, but it's simply not on Hackett's resume as an OC

 

It would be analogous to giving Dorsey credit as OC for Josh Allen's 2020 and 2021 season - he was QB coach, he deserves credit for that, but not credit as OC

My bad hackett was dual OC and QB coach in 16 then .. 1 season 

 

And my point stands that Hackett was working with quarterbacks that needed a lot of work... Manuel and tuel , thad Lewis and bortles .. Bill's offense still scored 21 a game under those bums which is a testament

 

Allen had a slew of professionals building him since craig bohl , the work with palmer is huge ... daboll was like a father ... McDermott was a calm figure ... David culley was a college QB , with years of coaching all over the offense

 

And then Dorsey 

 

He's had a slew of guys building him up for years... and the light has been clicking since year 2 ... If you're not getting better in the NFL you're regressing

 

So yeah right now Josh needs to figure it out... And Dorsey and him need to have a long talk about the future of the offense 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Big Blitz]

I can’t keep up with the threads.  But this bears posting everywhere:

 

 

First 6 games of 2022:

 

2300 yards  66%  14 TDs  4 INTs 

 

 

Last 13 games including playoffs and Jets:

 

 

2700 yards 60%  22 TDs   16 INTs 

 

 

^^^^ That’s almost a full season.  
 

And I did the math - the yardage is roughly that it’s within 50 or so yards.   

Edited September 14, 2023 by Big Blitz

[T master]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:36 AM, ScottLaw said:

Game plan seemed too conservative.(shocker) they played scared of the Jets defense for most of the game…. And Josh was a ***** show.

 

They were playing one of if no the best defenses in the league which means pressure on Josh is almost constant & wasn't most of Allen's INT's when he was airing it out WAY down field so how was that conservative ?

 

What i saw on a lot of replay was players open under neath & Josh didn't see them or was going for the home run ball at times which i haven't rematched the game but a lot of people that i talk to said there were people mostly TE's open josh just didn't go to them .

 

And in a game like that with a very tough D i would think you don't have the luxury of time for a play to develop so you have to be a bit more conservative at first then pick and choose when you go big .

 

But ultimately it comes down to the players executing you can have the best calls made if they don't execute it's all for not .

Edited September 14, 2023 by T master

[Pirate Angel]

47 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

My bad hackett was dual OC and QB coach in 16 then .. 1 season 

 

And my point stands that Hackett was working with quarterbacks that needed a lot of work... Manuel and tuel , thad Lewis and bortles .. Bill's offense still scored 21 a game under those bums which is a testament

 

Allen had a slew of professionals building him since craig bohl , the work with palmer is huge ... daboll was like a father ... McDermott was a calm figure ... David culley was a college QB , with years of coaching all over the offense

 

And then Dorsey 

 

He's had a slew of guys building him up for years... and the light has been clicking since year 2 ... If you're not getting better in the NFL you're regressing

 

So yeah right now Josh needs to figure it out... And Dorsey and him need to have a long talk about the future of the offense 

Marrone called the plays when Hackett was here, not only that but playing the Bills was just another game in that era now they are the team to beat in the AFC east like beating the Brady Pats was a Superbowl to us not long ago.

The gameplan was solid and the game was winnable, how careless Josh was with the ball makes it almost impossible to win in this league.

[harmonkillebrew]

Dorsey is a bad fit for Josh. He needs an OC that will reign him in and not give him the opportunity to make stupid plays at bad moments.

I wish it wasn't true, but Josh needs constant coaching. He's not the QB that can thrive and win with just any old OC.

[jaybee]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:35 AM, RoyBatty is alive said:

Ok so we lost it at the end and HOW is this all on DORSEY?

Hey gotta blame somebody right ?  Remember when they all used to blame EVERY loss on Daboll ?   Its fun to watch freakout central when they lose. .  When they win next time everyone will say Dorsey called that game like a GENIUS !!.  Just don't blame Josh.  That'll get you banned by the HS forum lawyers here on Algore's amazing internet !!!!

 

GO BILLS !!

[Logic]

I haven't read the 10 pages of this thread because I don't hate myself, but...

Has anyone mentioned the four turnovers that Dorsey committed? That was BY FAR his most egregious contribution to the loss on Monday.

Until Ken Dorsey stops throwing into double coverage, we're screwed.

[Low Positive]

5 minutes ago, jaybee said:

Hey gotta blame somebody right ?  Remember when they all used to blame EVERY loss on Daboll ?   Its fun to watch freakout central when they lose. .  When they win next time everyone will say Dorsey called that game like a GENIUS !!.  Just don't blame Josh.  That'll get you banned by the HS forum lawyers here on Algore's amazing internet !!!!

 

GO BILLS !!

Everybody has been blaming Josh here all week.

[CEN-CAL17]

 

 

This is play design… this is Dorsey. Multiple players running concepts routes incorrectly in which Warner says won’t work the way the Bills execute it. And I agree 100%.

 

[dave mcbride]

10 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

 

 

This is play design… this is Dorsey. Multiple players running concepts routes incorrectly in which Warner says won’t work the way the Bills execute it. And I agree 100%.

 

This is pretty good. Hard to pin down specific blame, though; it might be players simply running bad routes. But of course that's coaching too. The Davis route was really poor.