Random talking head says something about the Bills

[Man with No Name]

Re: Geno Smith.

quick and dirty from wiki: 

 

re-draft

[edit]

Smith received an invitation to the NFL Scouting Combine where his performance was well received by scouts who highlighted his athleticism and strong arm[46] but noted that his ball placement needed improvement.[47] Smith was widely regarded as one of the top prospects alongside EJ Manuel of Florida State.[48] In the days leading up to the draft, several NFL teams expressed interest in Smith including the Kansas City Chiefs (No. 1 selection), the Jacksonville Jaguars (No. 2 selection), the Oakland Raiders (No. 3 selection), the Philadelphia Eagles (No. 4 selection), the Buffalo Bills (No. 8 selection), and the New York Jets (No. 9 and No. 13 selections).[49]

 

Draft and signing

[edit]

Smith was in attendance for the first round of the draft as many analysts and scouts expected him to be taken that night.[53] However, Smith was not selected, and EJ Manuel was the lone quarterback taken in the first round.[54] Smith declined to be interviewed by ESPN afterwards and originally planned to return home but later decided to attend the second day of the draft.[54] Several league executives alleged Smith did not handle the draft process in a professional manner, which caused him to fall out of the first round,[55] while analysts pointed to his late-season decline as a senior at West Virginia, which exposed his flaws, as the primary reason.[56] The following day, the Jets expressed interest in trading up in the second round to select Smith but could not consummate a trade.[57] Despite this, Smith remained available and the Jets selected him with the 39th overall pick.[58] Following the selection, General manager John Idzik stated that Smith would compete with incumbent Mark Sanchez in training camp to determine the starting quarterback.[59]

[McMuffin]

38 minutes ago, T.E. said:

2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Ryan Clark, former NFL player, current TV NFL personality (on multiple stations, podcasts, etc).

Marcellus Wiley, former Buffalo Bill, former(?) TV personality, now podcaster.

 

Ryan Clark is one of many African-American former players/TV personalities who witnessed the old-school, systemic racism against Lamar Jackson coming into the league. Lamar was a Heisman winner at a fairly major program and had years of tape of him throwing the ball. Yet, the "old school" NFL guys and GMs never gave him his proper respect as a prospect. Really hit a peak when Bill Polian went on national TV and said Lamar should switch to WR. Just an absolute horrible take and insult to Lamar.

 

Then draft day 2018 happened, and they watched Lamar slide all the way to #32, while other possible lesser prospects went before him. The most glaring being the super raw, major longshot project from a D2 school in Wyoming, Josh Allen.

 

For many of these guys (Stephen A Smith, Damien Woody, Bart Scott, Ryan Clark, etc) it was more of the same ol same ol. Disrespect of the young black man, while over-respecting the white kid.

 

And in many ways they werent wrong. And proven further correct by Lamar's success at QB in the NFL.

 

The issue is, a lot of these guys somehow blame Josh himself for his and Lamar's draft position. So they are ALWAYS trying to prove Lamar is better than Josh in order to right the wrongs of the 2018 draft. And they usually do that by tearing down Josh for no reason.

 

Marcellus called Clark out on those types of takes. And now we have the drama of today.

 

 

 

This argument is completely ridiculous when considering the fact that the same "racist" NFL front offices drafted numerous black QBs in the top 10 and even with the first overall pick years and even decades before anyone knew who Lamar Jackson was.

I listened to this earlier and there is a consistent attitude of dismissiveness from certain former players who are now in the media when it comes to Allen.

 
Cam Newton (who Josh is most compared to) has gone out of his way to downplay Josh while lifting up Lamar.  

Keyshawn Johnson can’t seem to give Josh any respect but makes all kinds of excuses for Lamar.

 

Richard Sherman had Rasul Douglas on his podcast and he did not ask one question that mentioned Allen.

 

They and some others like to say it doesn’t matter what Josh does until he beats the Chiefs in the playoffs while Lamar only quarterbacked his team to one win against the Chiefs in the regular season and also has not beaten them in the playoffs.

 

We are in a time when it seems like half of the quarterbacks in the NFL are black and I’m here for it. While I appreciate the progress that has been made in the NFL.  I also feel that Lamar should be held to the same standards as other great players who have come up short in the postseason like my goodness, he will most likely have 3 MVP’s!  Come to think about it, maybe Lamar should be held to an even higher standard!

 

One player (Josh) does not need to be put down to elevate the other (Lamar). I just hope and pray that we win it all so Josh can shut up all of the haters.
 

 

 

[Malazan]

22 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Did he have a bad Wonderlic? Was he not great on the white board? 

 

6 minutes ago, Governor said:

I think it was more about his decision making if I recall correctly.

 

How wrong they were too...

 

It's not like the guy missed a team meeting because he went to a movie and screwed up the time because he was in a different time zone..

 

..or got himself punched in the face causing him to lose his starting job over $600 he owed a teammate

[UKBillFan]

2 minutes ago, McMuffin said:

I listened to this earlier and there is a consistent attitude of dismissiveness from certain former players who are now in the media when it comes to Allen.

 
Cam Newton (who Josh is most compared to) has gone out of his way to downplay Josh while lifting up Lamar.  

Keyshawn Johnson can’t seem to give Josh any respect but makes all kinds of excuses for Lamar.

 

Richard Sherman had Rasul Douglas on his podcast and he did not ask one question that mentioned Allen.

 

They and some others like to say it doesn’t matter what Josh does until he beats the Chiefs in the playoffs while Lamar only quarterbacked his team to one win against the Chiefs in the regular season and also has not beaten them in the playoffs.

 

We are in a time when it seems like half of the quarterbacks in the NFL are black and I’m here for it. While I appreciate the progress that has been made in the NFL.  I also feel that Lamar should be held to the same standards as other great players who have come up short in the postseason like my goodness, he will most likely have 3 MVP’s!  Come to think about it, maybe Lamar should be held to an even higher standard!

 

One player (Josh) does not need to be put down to elevate the other (Lamar). I just hope and pray that we win it all so Josh can shut up all of the haters.
 

 

 

 

You think that will stop them? It's a nice thought.

[T.E.]

28 minutes ago, Governor said:

Geno Smith was treated pretty bad pre-draft. They basically said he was too dumb to be a franchise QB.

That's actually a good example of how GMs can incorrectly judge a book by its cover. EJ Manuel was the first QB taken, I think in large part because he looked and sounded like he would be a franchise QB.

[McMuffin]

12 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

You think that will stop them? It's a nice thought.

Goal posts will hopefully stop moving.

[Augie]

14 minutes ago, T.E. said:

That's actually a good example of how GMs can incorrectly judge a book by its cover. EJ Manuel was the first QB taken, I think in large part because he looked and sounded like he would be a franchise QB.

 

It was certainly not for his sliding ability! He looked like a baby giraffe out there. 

 

By all accounts he was a very fine young man. People wanted him to do well. He would have been a fine face for the franchise. 

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, McMuffin said:

Goal posts will hopefully stop moving.

 

They cant say much after a Super Bowl win, and even if they do, it wont matter.

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I will say this about Lamar pre-draft.  There have been accounts  that the Ravens had pre-draft meetings where they basically sat down and said something like:

"if we draft Lamar Jackson, we have to be willing to tailor our offense to let him be successful.  Are we All In for that?  Because if we aren't, then we shouldn't"

"Yes, we're all in, Let's Do It."

"OK"

They had Greg Roman already on their staff in 2017 who had designed successful offenses for Colin Kaepernick and Tyrod Taylor, who aren't nearly the athletes Jackson is but who were along the same spectrum when they played.  That may have helped them see it as possible.  So they put the pieces together in 2018 and turned him loose in 2019.

 

 

 

They drafted Hayden Hurst a few picks BEFORE they took Lamar Jackson. Any stories they've told after the fact to indicate that they were all in on him are not true. They decided a TE prospect was worth the risk of losing out on him entirely. The truth is nobody, including Baltimore, properly valued him.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by HappyDays

[Buffalo Junction]

3 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

He struggled on some routine throws in college at times and had a pretty bad performance in the passing drills in the combine and didn’t run the 40.

 

the ‘running back trying to play quarterback’ label followed him far too long into his nfl career imo and maybe that was racially motivated, but I think trying to paint it as ‘he was disrespected in the draft for no game related reasons’ is a bit of a stretch imo 

 

Josh’s stock likely rose post combine because he showed off absolutely insane arm talent and ran a pretty respectable 40 considering he had the worst running form for a track event I’ve ever seen 😂. Im

sure scouts knew his offensive line and passcatchers were absolutely dreadful in Wyoming also so the completion percentage type numbers were probably taken with a grain of salt 

The running back trying to play QB thing likely stuck as a narrative because of Greg Roman. Roman’s schemes have always been prodigious at run design and rudimentary at route concepts. It’s possibly a substantial reason why Lamar didn’t develop sooner as a passer. 

[Beck Water]

43 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

They drafted Hayden Hurst a few picks BEFORE they took Lamar Jackson. Any stories they've told after the fact to indicate that they were all in on him are not true. They decided a TE prospect was worth the risk of losing out on him entirely. The truth is nobody, including Baltimore, properly valued him.

 

 

I can't argue with the fact that they didn't value Jackson enough to use their original 1st round pick on him.

 

My point was that it's revisionist to think that even the team that drafted Lamar were all "whoop!  whoop!  total franchise QB package here!".  They weren't.  They were "We could draft this a guy who has a unique skillset and playing style.  And if we do, we can't just plug him into our offense as our QB.  We will have to commit to designing an offense that fits his skillset so that we can use him effectively"

 

Today, Lamar has evolved as a passer AND other offenses have evolved, to the point where there are a number of offenses that he could step into.

 

But that wasn't the case, when Baltimore drafted him.

Edited 1 hour ago by Beck Water

[Solomon Grundy]

2 hours ago, McMuffin said:

I listened to this earlier and there is a consistent attitude of dismissiveness from certain former players who are now in the media when it comes to Allen.

 
Cam Newton (who Josh is most compared to) has gone out of his way to downplay Josh while lifting up Lamar.  

Keyshawn Johnson can’t seem to give Josh any respect but makes all kinds of excuses for Lamar.

 

Richard Sherman had Rasul Douglas on his podcast and he did not ask one question that mentioned Allen.

 

They and some others like to say it doesn’t matter what Josh does until he beats the Chiefs in the playoffs while Lamar only quarterbacked his team to one win against the Chiefs in the regular season and also has not beaten them in the playoffs.

 

We are in a time when it seems like half of the quarterbacks in the NFL are black and I’m here for it. While I appreciate the progress that has been made in the NFL.  I also feel that Lamar should be held to the same standards as other great players who have come up short in the postseason like my goodness, he will most likely have 3 MVP’s!  Come to think about it, maybe Lamar should be held to an even higher standard!

 

One player (Josh) does not need to be put down to elevate the other (Lamar). I just hope and pray that we win it all so Josh can shut up all of the haters.
 

 

 

Keyshon BASICALLY HATES THE BILLS!!

12 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I can't argue with the fact that they didn't value Jackson enough to use their original 1st round pick on him.

 

My point was that it's revisionist to think that even the team that drafted Lamar were all "whoop!  whoop!  total franchise QB package here!".  They weren't.  They were "We could draft this a guy who has a unique skillset and playing style.  And if we do, we can't just plug him into our offense as our QB.  We will have to commit to designing an offense that fits his skillset so that we can use him effectively"

 

Today, Lamar has evolved as a passer AND other offenses have evolved, to the point where there are a number of offenses that he could step into.

 

But that wasn't the case, when Baltimore drafted him.

The guy threw for 3,000 yards twice in college without having a NFL quality WR on his team. He was as much as a project as Josh Allen, just didn't have Josh frame

[Kelly to Allen]

3 hours ago, Governor said:

Geno Smith was treated pretty bad pre-draft. They basically said he was too dumb to be a franchise QB.

 

This is patronizing kinda.

 

I don't think you're purposely being patronizing but that's what this is. 

 

Dignity, respect and even harsh criticism are actually pretty congruent. 

 

It's the opposite of dignity and respect when you're not being scrutinized

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 59 minutes ago by Kelly to Allen

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 hours ago, McMuffin said:

I listened to this earlier and there is a consistent attitude of dismissiveness from certain former players who are now in the media when it comes to Allen.

 
Cam Newton (who Josh is most compared to) has gone out of his way to downplay Josh while lifting up Lamar.  

Keyshawn Johnson can’t seem to give Josh any respect but makes all kinds of excuses for Lamar.

 

Richard Sherman had Rasul Douglas on his podcast and he did not ask one question that mentioned Allen.

 

They and some others like to say it doesn’t matter what Josh does until he beats the Chiefs in the playoffs while Lamar only quarterbacked his team to one win against the Chiefs in the regular season and also has not beaten them in the playoffs.

 

We are in a time when it seems like half of the quarterbacks in the NFL are black and I’m here for it. While I appreciate the progress that has been made in the NFL.  I also feel that Lamar should be held to the same standards as other great players who have come up short in the postseason like my goodness, he will most likely have 3 MVP’s!  Come to think about it, maybe Lamar should be held to an even higher standard!

 

One player (Josh) does not need to be put down to elevate the other (Lamar). I just hope and pray that we win it all so Josh can shut up all of the haters.
 

 

 

I went through how different coaches/qbs have fared against the mahomes chiefs in another post and it is absolutely shocking.  You’d think the bills never beat them and everyone else does the way josh is talked about but the bills are really the only team having any kind of success against them at all lol 

[Kelly to Allen]

55 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

The running back trying to play QB thing likely stuck as a narrative because of Greg Roman. Roman’s schemes have always been prodigious at run design and rudimentary at route concepts. It’s possibly a substantial reason why Lamar didn’t develop sooner as a passer. 

 

It's been a massive adjustment in college football in the past two decades to use the QB as a runner in some type of RPO because it creates man covg and allows you to have your best athlete at QB. This is much easier to recruit than a traditional pocket passer and an easier offense to implement 

 

It has nothing to do with " progress" or anything silly like that. 

 

I agree with you that Lamar was used by Roman in the RPO to accentuate his running. 

 

Daboll forced Allen to learn all the hard parts of passing first and this is why Allen took a couple years to fully blossom. Daboll easily couldve been selfish and just ran RPO all day or spread and it would've created some better results earlier but his development would've been delayed

 

 

 

 

[Kelly to Allen]

Jim Kelly 

Steve Young 

Tim Tebow 

 

Julian Edelman 

Matt Jones 

Scott frost 

 

We're all asked to switch positions....in different contexts and at different points in their careers over the past 50 years...

 

Doug Williams was a pocket passer in the mid 70s and drafted in the first round. 

 

This is a fake narrative to pretend Lamar is a novelty 

 

Michael Vick, kordell Stewart, and Randall Cunningham already did this 

 

Before them Roger " the dodger" Staubach , Fran tarkenton and even Bert Jones a little bit. It was actually normal for scrambling QBs back in the 70s

 

Michael Vick was taken number one overall over drew Brees in the same draft class. Brees went in the second round. 

 

It's all fake and used to stir up people's emotions 

 

Lamar Jackson is a great QB. So is Josh Allen....It's really not anymore complicated or deeper than that. 

 

 

Edited 37 minutes ago by Kelly to Allen

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, T.E. said:

That's actually a good example of how GMs can incorrectly judge a book by its cover. EJ Manuel was the first QB taken, I think in large part because he looked and sounded like he would be a franchise QB.

 

But let's not pretend that Geno Smith was a franchise QB when he was drafted, either.   He had two bad years as the starter for the NY Jets.  He then started a grand total of 1 game the rest of his contract with the Jets and 1 game for his next 2 teams, before taking a backup role with the Seahawks in 2019. 

 

He became Comeback Player of the Year and a pro-bowler - 9 seasons after he was drafted.

 

A difference between Smith and Manuel is that Smith wanted to keep playing football enough to eat "humble pie" and compete for the role of backup.  Manuel hung up his cleats and said "I'm Out".

[Buffalo716]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

But let's not pretend that Geno Smith was a franchise QB when he was drafted, either.   He had two bad years as the starter for the NY Jets.  He then started a grand total of 1 game the rest of his contract with the Jets and 1 game for his next 2 teams, before taking a backup role with the Seahawks in 2019. 

 

He became Comeback Player of the Year and a pro-bowler - 9 seasons after he was drafted.

 

A difference between Smith and Manuel is that Smith wanted to keep playing football enough to eat "humble pie" and compete for the role of backup.  Manuel hung up his cleats and said "I'm Out".

That's the difference.. one ate humble pie and improved over 8 years the other called it a career

[Kelly to Allen]

1 hour ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Keyshon BASICALLY HATES THE BILLS!!

The guy threw for 3,000 yards twice in college without having a NFL quality WR on his team. He was as much as a project as Josh Allen, just didn't have Josh frame

 

No, he wasn't. 

 

Allen was a raw sandlot QB. He was not a " project" unless you think Elway was also a project....Allen from an arm talent standpoint may be the best prospect of all time. He was compared to a few all time great arm talents. He simply needed reps. 

 

Lamar was a RPO zone read QB that had real limitations as a traditional drop back passer coming out. Go watch his tape vs Houston and Ed Oliver...But he was a good enough passer combined with a phenomenal skill set running that Baltimore picked him and completely changed their organizational philosophy