Is this Bills team better than the 2020/2021/2022 versions?

[BarleyNY]

54 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

Regardless of how this season plays out I do think we are headed for an interesting offseason. As you mentioned players are getting older and many are on the wrong side of 30. I don't want to call it a rebuild but a reload or retooling of the roster will probably happen for the 2024 season. 

 

The only thing I disagree with is that I don’t see a retooling until after the 2024 season. The Bills are set to move on from several key players at that point. Of course there are some they could choose to move on from earlier and some they could extend, but that off-season seems like the logical place to make the most moves.

 

Contracts set to expire after the 2024 season include Dawkins, Morse, Brown, Gilliam, Hines, Harty, Poyer, Neal and Johnson. It’s also the point I expect them to get out of the contracts of Von Miller (definitely) and Diggs (possibly as 2025 would be his age 32 season). It also the logical point for staff and coaching changes to be made, IF any are warranted at that time. 

[eball]

50 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Do you think Harty/Sherfield will have around 600 and 450 yards each, respectively?

 

That's a great question, but requires a little more depth.

 

In 2020 the top 6 Bills pass catchers (Diggs/Beas/Davis/Brown/Knox/McKenzie) caught 331 passes for 4129 yards.

 

Last year Diggs/Davis/Knox combined for 204/2782.

 

Do I think the combination of Sherfield/Harty/Kincaid will exceed 127 receptions and 1347 yards?  You bet I do.

 

 

 

[hondo in seattle]

4 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

I lost faith in McDermott after 13 seconds. He is a good regular season coach, but I don't know if he gets us to the top. To many playoff failures in his history not to mention winless on the road in the playoffs.

 

I know I won't change your mind but I'll share my thoughts anyway.

 

Even great generals lose battles.  Caesar lost to Vercingetorix at Gergovia.  Lee lost at Gettysburg.  Patton lost at Fort Driant.  

 

Andy Reid is widely considered one of the best coaches in the NFL (an AP poll just ranked him #1).  He's also fortunate enough to possess one of the best rosters.  But he struggles against McDermitt.  He needed the miracle of 13 seconds to pull that playoff win out of his ass.  And I was in KC when McD crushed Reid's Chiefs 38-20.  I'm sure Reid did everything he could to win that game.  When rosters and coaching staffs are equally matched anything can happen and games swing on bounces, tips, referee calls, and players doing something atypically good or bad.   And that day, McD came out on top.  It didn't mean McD was the better coach.  The loss in the playoffs that year didn't mean Reid was the better coach.  

 

I don't think there's much of a difference between regular-season coaches and playoff coaches.  You study film, develop your scheme, prepare your team.  It's not like you're a player under the lights with all the adrenaline and nervousness impacting your physical performance.  

 

The 14 best teams enter the playoffs.  13 of them will end their seasons on a bitter loss.  With 32 teams in the NFL, there's only a 3% chance of winning it all.   Those are long odds.  To damn a coach for failing home to bring a trophy is a little harsh.  

 

I believe fans who think McD should have won more playoff games overrate our roster.  We're typically getting beat by teams with better players.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by hondo in seattle

[gobills404]

5 hours ago, DeltaDigital said:

Don’t forget the collapse In Houston where the aforementioned Taiwan jones sent us golfing on a 3-13 dump off where we gave 20yard cushions. That’s directly on Clappy McClapperson too. 

No it was directly on Milano, Neal, and Hyde all whiffing their tackles. Taiwan Jones was lined up at WR on the play and Hyde gave him a 3 yard cushion. The Bills also sent a 7 man, Cover 0 blitz and had 2 free rushers on Watson. It was an EXTREMELY aggressive defensive call that Watson just made an incredible play on. We need more defensive play calls like that in the playoffs, and less like the 13 seconds.

Edited September 7, 2023 by gobills404

[Big Blitz]

Yes but so are 8 other teams in the AFC.  
 

Miami 

Jets

Chargers 

Browns 

Bengals 

Ravens 

Steelers

Jaguars 

[Bferra13]

13 hours ago, ganesh said:

What about Coaching?  I think they are going to make the biggest difference to this team.

So you're saying they are gonna blow it again?

[BigAl2526]

Legitimate year to year comparisons are impossible before the season starts.  I am hoping that Josh keeps learning from his mistakes and becomes the best version of himself, but we can't be sure that will be the case.  I think the running back room is stronger than it's been, but Damien Harris does have that worrisome injury history and Cook is awfully small to take the pounding if he has to be on the field too much.  I think there is untapped potential in the receiver room, that we still haven't seen the best of Gabe Davis.  Trent Sherfield also might be really good.  Harty can be an explosive gadget player, not to mention returner, but he also has an injury history.  If they all play to their potential this could be the best Bills receiver group ever.  Unfortunately, it's rare that best case scenarios work out for every player.  The tight end group is highly likely to be among the best ever for the Bills.  The offensive line should be the strongest of the past several years, but as we just learned Dion Dawkins had to lose 40 lbs over the last five months because he got really heavy by the end of March.  Significant weight loss and improvement in strength and technique are usually mutually exclusive.  Hopefully, Torrence is the real deal and is as solid in the regular season as he seemed to be in pre-season.  Hopefully, Brown can rediscover his earlier promise and McGovern is as solid as we hope.  None of those outcomes are guaranteed.  

 

I think on defense, the line should be solid to start the year and great when Von Miller returns.  That's pretty close to a sure thing.  Von is obviously on the back end of his career though and that could mean he'll be more prone to injury going forward.  That is the main fly in the ointment.  Linebacker is the obvious choice for the position group that took the biggest off season hit.  Terrel Bernard won the starting middle linebacker position without taking a preseason snap.  That says a lot more about the Bills lack of trust in Dodson than it does about Bernard having been great.  The Bills have to hope he is a huge surprise to the upside.  I suspect they'll also be hoping that Kirksey can get comfortable with McDermott's defensive system with all its intricacies.  I think the secondary is really good.  I don't see Benford starting as a problem at all.  The depth is solid at both CB and safety.  The primary question mark with the secondary is the durability of Hyde and Poyer since both are over 30 now and coming of a year where they dealt with injuries.

 

Put it all together, and I think the Bills are potentially better, but there are so many ifs on the roster, it's possible we'll look back in five months and wonder what happened. 

[eball]

13 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The combination of Diggs/Beasley/Brown/Davis is better than anything the Bills offer right now until proven otherwise… it was a top 5-7 unit at the time…. that could change with improvement from Davis and Kincaid performing like we hope he does, but as of right now it’s very far fetched to suggest the group is as good as that one was. 
 

The Bills are better at defensive line assuming Miller comes back to form and interior offensive line than they were in 2020… not sure anywhere else.

 

Well, duh.  We won’t know how they compare until after the season.  But this is a thread about what we think will happen, and I think the Bills’ best 6 pass catchers in 2023 (4 WRs and 2 TEs) will be better than their best 6 pass catchers were in 2020 (4 WRs, 1 TE, and a gadget guy).

 

[Mikie2times]

QB: Josh was at an MVP level, arguable should have won at least one up until last year. I can't just give the nod to more experience as with that experience teams have started taking away things he excels at. I need to see a stronger counter punch to upgrade here

 

RB: I think we are better here. Cook has more upside than motor. Harris has more upside than Moss.  

 

WR: The WR room is worse than all of the years. Having the high end versions of Beasley and Josh Brown is better than any #3 or later WR we have and by a considerable margin. Davis and Knox have things to prove if they want to best the best years they had in 2021. Kincaid does not offset this but helps.   

 

OL: Morse is not as good and Dawkins is not as good. Those are the two best we had then and still the two best we have now. Torrence and McGovern should upgrade the guards to be among the best we had during this stretch. RT has been a liability nearly the whole time and still is. I say it's a break even.

 

DL: Rousseau could take a step, Floyd will give us double digit sacks. Perhaps the start of 2022 takes this, but if Von comes back healthy, this should be the best line we have had. 

 

LB: Obviously a huge regression here against any of the seasons. No way around it. 

 

CB: This unit was just better during the pre Tre injury and Levi Wallace days. I do think it can end up being better this year but we will need Tre to return to full form. Having the one shutdown corner allows us to do a lot more.  

 

S: I have to give youth the nod here. So better in years past but like the Rupp signing and we certainly have more depth than we ever had. 

 

2021 was a Super Bowl team. I think we can compete against that roster this season but we will need to have some things go our way for that to happen. Questions marks as far as ceiling are all over the place with this team. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Mikie2times

[Dopey]

6 hours ago, Success said:

I've said it a few times - this is the best team of the JA era.  It's the most talented, the deepest and the most balanced.

 

Honestly, it may be the best Bills team of all time.  I don't know if that sounds like sacrilege or hyperbole (or both), but I think it has potential to be.

 

Agreed.

[Alphadawg7]

16 hours ago, FireChans said:

Topic Title.

 

We discuss draft and free agency hits and misses pretty frequently on this board. But the ultimate goal is to be the team last standing.  Over the last 3, now approaching 4 years of clawing at the door, I think this question is important.

 

QB: Equal because Josh rules

 

QB:  Little better just because Josh last year was hurt and Josh today is further in his growth than he was 2 and 3 years ago. 

 

16 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

RB: Potentially best this year with Cook and co. but remains to be seen, the other years were pretty equal.

 

RB:  Better, I think this is the best RB group we have had.  How much better is yet to be seen until they hit the field, but on paper its better and deeper overall than any of the past 3 seasons.

 

16 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

WR: 2020 probably has this group beat, but if Kincaid pops in his WR role, this may be the best year as well

 

WR:  Better, this is the best set of weapons Allen has had in his career without factoring in Kincaid.  Sherfiled and Harty and better than people realize IMHO and Gabe seems ready to have his best season yet too.

 

16 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

OL: Again, 2020 was sneaky a solid OL year, a lot of guys played above their ability, but hopefully 2023 is even better

 

OL:  Inconclusive.  2020 was probably the best group thus far, but this group is unproven but has the potential to be the best unit so far, but need to see it on the field.

 

16 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

DL: 2022 pre-Von injury, but if Von comes back at his usual level this should be just as good, if not better with Floyd

 

DL:  Better.  This is the deepest and best DL we have had yet.  Even if Von isn't as good as he was last year when he gets back, we are deep in the middle and the edges.  Most of our depth could start on other teams too.

 

16 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

LB: The 2022 had the two best seasons out of Milano/Tremaine in Bills uni's. 2023 takes a big hit this year.

 

LB:  Worse.  How much worse is yet to be seen, but I think Kirksey is going to help stabilize it some here soon and will take over the MIKE.  

 

16 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

CB: 2020 probably has the best CB group by default because Tre was healthy all year. Hopefully Benford outperforms Levi and Tre returns to form

 

CB:  Better.  This is the deepest secondary we have had, our top 4 corners could start on several other teams and Tre seems to be nearing his old self based on camp reports.

 

16 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

S: 2021 probably takes this because Hyde/Poyer were healthy and 2 years younger, but if those old guys can hang on, 2023 should be around that level.

 

S:  Wash.  I would say the age argument works and could say worse, but I think having more depth with a quality player like Rapp offsets that some.  

 

16 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

STer: We have lost future Bills Wall of Famer Taiwain Jones, but ST doesn't really matter so who cares.

 

ST:  Worse until proven otherwise.  Hard to say here, we got a lot of new faces on ST, so can't really say, but they did lose some of their staples on the ST unit, so safe to assume they won't be as good until we see how the new faces settle in.

 

16 hours ago, FireChans said:

What say you.

 

[Robert Paulson]

14 hours ago, ganesh said:

What about Coaching?  I think they are going to make the biggest difference to this team.

losing Frazier was the best off season move we made

[Marcus Aurelius]

Year-by-year comparisons make for good watercooler and internet chatter but on a personal level, the collapse against Cincinnati in the playoffs remains for me a mystery. How do we account for this?

I do hope a victory over the Jets assuage some of this bitter taste.

GO BILLS 

[Heitz]

Hard tellin', not knowin'...but I'm excited to find out!  

[FireChans]

8 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

QB:  Little better just because Josh last year was hurt and Josh today is further in his growth than he was 2 and 3 years ago. 

 

 

RB:  Better, I think this is the best RB group we have had.  How much better is yet to be seen until they hit the field, but on paper its better and deeper overall than any of the past 3 seasons.

 

 

WR:  Better, this is the best set of weapons Allen has had in his career without factoring in Kincaid.  Sherfiled and Harty and better than people realize IMHO and Gabe seems ready to have his best season yet too.

 

 

OL:  Inconclusive.  2020 was probably the best group thus far, but this group is unproven but has the potential to be the best unit so far, but need to see it on the field.

 

 

DL:  Better.  This is the deepest and best DL we have had yet.  Even if Von isn't as good as he was last year when he gets back, we are deep in the middle and the edges.  Most of our depth could start on other teams too.

 

 

LB:  Worse.  How much worse is yet to be seen, but I think Kirksey is going to help stabilize it some here soon and will take over the MIKE.  

 

 

CB:  Better.  This is the deepest secondary we have had, our top 4 corners could start on several other teams and Tre seems to be nearing his old self based on camp reports.

 

 

S:  Wash.  I would say the age argument works and could say worse, but I think having more depth with a quality player like Rapp offsets that some.  

 

 

ST:  Worse until proven otherwise.  Hard to say here, we got a lot of new faces on ST, so can't really say, but they did lose some of their staples on the ST unit, so safe to assume they won't be as good until we see how the new faces settle in.

 

 

I simply cannot agree that the WR group sans Kincaid is better than 2020 but I hope you’re right.

 

I think “better depth” is really overplayed and overfactored. 

[Alphadawg7]

27 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I simply cannot agree that the WR group sans Kincaid is better than 2020 but I hope you’re right.

 

I think “better depth” is really overplayed and overfactored. 

 

Here is the thing, you are asking this question on each position before this team has even played one meaningful snap, let alone a whole season.  We wont even get these answers after this first game, so it can't truly be answered until the season is over.  So today, its just opinion and speculation. 

 

And for me, my personal opinion is that I think Gabe Davis is going to prove to be the best WR2 this season Allen has had thus far opposite Diggs.  So to me, WR1/2 combo is already better than 2020 at the top 2 spots.  Then Sherfield for me is a lot better than people realize and I think he is going to prove to be the best WR3 Allen has had yet.  Then you have Harty who is a lot better than McKenzie in terms of actual WR talent as the best WR4 Allen has had, but of course he needs to stay healthy.  Still have upside with Shakir too, but just those top 4 spots to me is better than 2020.  

 

Then if you add in Kincaid, to me its not even close anymore.  But I think we are better at WR without factoring in Kincaid.  And don't sleep on "better depth" either, not having the depth in the past has been a major achilles heel for us.  

 

So, I can accept that you need to see it on the field first, and heck, even I do, this is just what I think today based on what I expect at each position.  So its just my opinion because you are asking these questions before this roster has had a chance to show where its better or worse.

[ganesh]

18 hours ago, eball said:

 

I said at least equal.  The WR room is deeper now for sure.  Beasley was great, but 2023 Davis is better than 2020 Davis and I guess I'm thinking overall "pass catchers" rather than simply WRs.  Knox and Kincaid tip the scales.

 

Sheffield/Harty also may provide the surprise punch

[Teddy KGB]

21 hours ago, Bob Lamb said:

 

The Bills fatal flaw will be McDermott - he doesn't have the "right" stuff

 

What was that time out for?

McChokeartist 

[Chas56]

On 9/6/2023 at 11:59 PM, FireChans said:

 

LB: The 2022 had the two best seasons out of Milano/Tremaine in Bills uni's. 2023 takes a big hit this year.

 

Wait. I thought Tremaine was holding us back? He misses gaps, takes bad angles, tackles runners 10 yards up field. We were supposed to be better with a replacement. I don't understand. 
 

Edit: Don't get me wrong. Edmunds priced himself out of Buffalo, but he was a good LB. I never got all the hate.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Chas56

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Chas56 said:

Wait. I thought Tremaine was holding us back? He misses gaps, takes bad angles, tackles runners 10 yards up field. We were supposed to be better with a replacement. I don't understand. 
 

Edit: Don't get me wrong. Edmunds priced himself out of Buffalo, but he was a good LB. I never got all the hate.

Edmunds was a perpetual disappointment because he was not traded up for and drafted at #16 to be just a decent player at the NFL level. Even more frustrating was that his obvious and incredible physical gifts did not help him make the amount of plays that he was expected to.

 

It was like watching a guy with Josh Allen’s physical gifts play like Jimmy Garropolo. 
 

He managed to have the best year of his career while playing on his fifth year option (after two mediocre seasons) and get paid in FA. Glad he walked and we didn’t pay. You do not win football games paying decent players great salaries.