Nattering nabobs of negativism

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Dopey said:

Hey, I like you as a poster. I was responding to someone else regarding  Allen and his standing here and being above criticism because he “saved “ the Bills. 

I know.  I was trying to agree with you.   Ralph made us a major league city and Terry kept it that way.

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I was in college during Watergate.  Weird times to be sure, but back then when push came to shove people put the country first.

Was the negative media coverage of Nixon justified?

[oldmanfan]

Just now, FireChans said:

Was the negative media coverage of Nixon justified?

In my opinion yes.  He tried to subvert the Constitution.  He did a lot of good in foreign policy but his paranoia did him in.

[FireChans]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

In my opinion yes.  He tried to subvert the Constitution.  He did a lot of good in foreign policy but his paranoia did him in.

That’s great lmao

[oldmanfan]

Just now, FireChans said:

That’s great lmao

Really?  He exceeded powers granted to him by the Constitution.  So done now, thanks for trying to hijack the thread.

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

be prepared to be told you didn’t really hear what you heard and this is impossible because he outruns sweaty gymtats sometimes. 

 

If you were one of those claiming Josh said he wasn't a big film watcher, you didn't. in fact, hear what you think you heard.

 

I don't think you've answered my question.

 

We're talking about a QB who regularly outmaneuvers and outruns the elite of the elite, professional NFL football players.  These aren't just "sweaty gymrats" and it's not just "sometimes", so it's pretty unreasonable to characterize it as "outruns sweaty gymrats sometimes".

 

Leaving aside the question of what you heard Josh say and whether it means what you think it means, what IS your answer to my questions?  I'll recap them here for your convenience:

1) How do you think he's putting up the rush yards AND passing yards (not to mention stiff arming and trucking) against defensive players, some of whom are noted "workout warriors", if he doesn't work out and build a good base of fitness (aerobic and strength) prior to the season?

2) Josh is the active player with most consecutive starts.  It seems pretty well established that athletes who are ill conditioned or under-trained can be more prone to injury under extreme exertion, while athletes who are rigorous about strengthening stabilizer muscles and maintaining flexibility can avoid or minimize injury.  How do you think Josh is achieving these consecutive starts, if he doesn't work out and build a good base of fitness prior to the season?

 

Step away from what you think you heard Josh say, and just explain to me how it makes sense to you in light of these factual observations?

 

Again as I said to BadOl, this isn't an argument, it's a question.  If you're a rational person capable of interesting discussion, you must have some answer for this.  What is it?

Edited September 3, 2023 by Beck Water

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Really?  He exceeded powers granted to him by the Constitution.  So done now, thanks for trying to hijack the thread.

No, it’s great that you used a quote that was defending Nixon from negative press (which you agree with) to defend the Bills from negativity (which you don’t agree with).

 

Basically, the dude who said “nattering nabobs” was wrong last time and the negative comments were completely justified. But not this time.  Lmao.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, RunTheBall said:

 

I have no problem with Josh not hitting the weights in the off season. It gives his body time to recover from the beating it takes during the season. He’s already a monster, he doesn’t need to put on more muscle. I’m a retired IFBB Pro (bodybuilding) and there were times I’d take off 5 weeks straight, let the joints recover and come back better than before. People don’t understand the beating these guys take, especially Josh who throws his body around unlike most QBs. 

 

It’s a nothing burger if he’s not actively weight training in the offseason. Some just want anything to latch onto to say Josh isn’t doing enough and have someone to blame when we don’t win the SB. Ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

It's a "nothing burger" until it stops working for him.    I agree that in the short term taking a break off can help.   Anybody who has been active in sports well into adulthood should know that.    But there is a difference between 5 weeks and 5 months as well.

 

Ultimately the proof will be in the results combined with the longevity.

 

Josh is following the Ben Roethlisberger offseason regimen............and his reasoning was the same as Josh's is now.

 

Big Ben hit the wall at 36 and ended his career a liability at QB and a huge cap burden for several seasons.  

 

By contrast Brady, Rodgers and Brees.........who all follow the "guys who train a lot get hurt a lot" approach more than the "can't tear fat" approach that Josh is advocating.......were still playing at a high level for much longer and didn't burden their franchise with poor results for the money on their way out.   

 

The thing that Allen has working against him that Big Ben did not is that the league is loaded with quality young QB's now and the college pipeline appears to be pretty decent.    It's not likely to be as easy to remain one of the elite for as long as it was for Big Ben.   

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

No, it’s great that you used a quote that was defending Nixon from negative press (which you agree with) to defend the Bills from negativity (which you don’t agree with).

 

Basically, the dude who said “nattering nabobs” was wrong last time and the negative comments were completely justified. But not this time.  Lmao.

I used it merely as a tag, nothing more or less.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's a "nothing burger" until it stops working for him.    I agree that in the short term taking a break off can help.   Anybody who has been active in sports well into adulthood should know that.    But there is a difference between 5 weeks and 5 months as well.

 

Ultimately the proof will be in the results combined with the longevity.

 

Josh is following the Ben Roethlisberger offseason regimen............and his reasoning was the same as Josh's is now.

 

Big Ben hit the wall at 36 and ended his career a liability at QB and a huge cap burden for several seasons.  

 

By contrast Brady, Rodgers and Brees.........who all follow the "guys who train a lot get hurt a lot" approach more than the "can't tear fat" approach that Josh is advocating.......were still playing at a high level for much longer and didn't burden their franchise with poor results for the money on their way out.   

 

The thing that Allen has working against him that Big Ben did not is that the league is loaded with quality young QB's now and the college pipeline appears to be pretty decent.    It's not likely to be as easy to remain one of the elite for as long as it was for Big Ben.   

I’d take a Ben career. The other side is a Luck, Culpepper or cam career. Not so good. 

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Bingo!!! Iirc, Hank Aaron smoked cigarettes. 

 

Hank Aaron smoked cigarettes.  "Greatest Diver of All Time" Greg Louganis acknowledges that he not only smoked, he was an alcoholic and used drugs until just before his first Olympic games.

 

Yet times have changed.  The #2 guy on various Olympic teams now starts his dive list with degree of difficulty dives that were Louganis best, and goes up in difficulty from there.  The "new normal" has become higher DOD.  Same with football - time was when guys would have off-season jobs to get by.  Not now, and in general NFL athletes are bigger, stronger, faster than they were even 2 decades ago.

 

I agree that genetics do play a huge role, but I think a lot of that role is getting athletes into the "elite of the elite", the top guys in the NFL.

 

Serious question, what modern elite athletes (Olympic, professional) are 5-7 years into a career and one of the best at their chosen sport, without serious sport-specific training in the off season to build a base?  Let's say, in the last 20 years.  As I said to BadOl, this isn't an argument, it's a question.  Who?

 

3 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Didn't Allen grow up on and work in a farm? People like that must gain strength early on as well (in addition to genetics). Bryce Paup didn't have rippling muscles, but remember how strong he was? He would move offensive liemen away by extending his arms. He grew up on a farm in Iowa.

 

I think "rippling muscles" are over perceived as a correlate to functional strength.  I think guys who have rippling muscles, generally train for rippling muscles; guys who are photographed with rippling muscles also set that up carefully.  But that doesn't mean guys with high functional strength but no rippling muscles don't train, and train hard.

 

Josh's background "growing up and working on a farm" has been overblown in the media.  I'm sure he did stuff at need, but Josh's family was really the local landed gentry.  I believe it was his grandfather who donated the land for the high school.  Josh talked about playing every sport he could -swimming, baseball, basketball, football - in part because if he were involved in sports, he got out of farm work.  It's not like his parents were pulling him away from sports to go move irrigation pipe or hoe the fields or harvest the cantaloupes.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Beck Water

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I’d take a Ben career. The other side is a Luck, Culpepper or cam career. Not so good. 

 

 

Big Ben won his second and last SB in his age 27 season..........so Josh is not on that trajectory........but yeah I would take 2 SB wins.

 

Point being.........there are a lot of recent precedents that favor a different approach than what Josh is doing.

[Beck Water]

15 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

It's a "nothing burger" until it stops working for him.    I agree that in the short term taking a break off can help.   Anybody who has been active in sports well into adulthood should know that.    But there is a difference between 5 weeks and 5 months as well.

 

I think Josh is talking about taking ~10 weeks "mostly" off, not 5 months off.  Between the end of the season and phase 1 OTAs.  That's from careful listening to the interviews people are slinging from.

 

Whether he does enough in the rest of the time, who knows?  So far, he doesn't seem to be pulling a Roethlisberger, but you have a valid point that if he in fact is taking 5 months off from position-specific strength and flexibility training, that will come. 

 

I would still like to learn your examples of modern-day elite professional athletes who don't train and get by on native athleticism.

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

20 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

very reasonable take. Allen is amazing, but he’s not carving up defenses with his presnap reads, he’s reacting on impulse and athleticism making jaw dropping velocity throws and agile escapes. 

If he had the pre play recognition a little tighter, it might have made the few more difference making plays to get to the top. 

You consider that a reasonable take?  Hmmmmmmmm

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

22 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

If you were one of those claiming Josh said he wasn't a big film watcher, you didn't. in fact, hear what you think you heard.

 

I don't think you've answered my question.

 

We're talking about a QB who regularly outmaneuvers and outruns the elite of the elite, professional NFL football players.  These aren't just "sweaty gymrats" and it's not just "sometimes", so it's pretty unreasonable to characterize it as "outruns sweaty gymrats sometimes".

 

Leaving aside the question of what you heard Josh say and whether it means what you think it means, what IS your answer to my questions?  I'll recap them here for your convenience:

1) How do you think he's putting up the rush yards AND passing yards (not to mention stiff arming and trucking) against defensive players, some of whom are noted "workout warriors", if he doesn't work out and build a good base of fitness (aerobic and strength) prior to the season?

2) Josh is the active player with most consecutive starts.  It seems pretty well established that athletes who are ill conditioned or under-trained can be more prone to injury under extreme exertion, while athletes who are rigorous about strengthening stabilizer muscles and maintaining flexibility can avoid or minimize injury.  How do you think Josh is achieving these consecutive starts, if he doesn't work out and build a good base of fitness prior to the season?

 

Step away from what you think you heard Josh say, and just explain to me how it makes sense to you in light of these factual observations?

 

Again as I said to BadOl, this isn't an argument, it's a question.  If you're a rational person capable of interesting discussion, you must have some answer for this.  What is it?

 why the whole gaslighting schtick?  …

 

you: forget what the man said about himself let’s speculate stuff… 

 

this is the recap: 

 

- poster says Allen is the hardest off-season worker in the nfl

I say:  not really, he said he doesn’t over indulge on film and doesn’t work in the gym, or with trainers in the off season.  He only throws with Palmer for a few weeks, along with a couple other QBs who do the same. 
 

you: impossible. He’s too good. Must be working out incessantly and just lying about it or the words everyone heard him say weren’t what he said. 
 

other poster: stop, my hero is better and works harder than the top 10 QBs in history combined and my 3 month old believes me so I know I’m right.  

[CincyBillsFan]

14 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

He’s the one who said he doesn’t hit the gym or lift in the off-season… your beef is with him. He must have been lying in that interview with trailer boys too. 

This is a mischaracterization of what Allen said.  As Beck has repeatedly shown us Allen did not say that he didn't hit the gym or lift in the off season.  He told us what he did and didn't do and the time frame that was involved. 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think Josh is talking about taking ~10 weeks "mostly" off, not 5 months off.  Between the end of the season and phase 1 OTAs.  That's from careful listening to the interviews people are slinging from.

 

Whether he does enough in the rest of the time, who knows?  So far, he doesn't seem to be pulling a Roethlisberger, but you have a valid point that if he in fact is taking 5 months off from position-specific strength and flexibility training, that will come. 

 

I would still like to learn your examples of modern-day elite professional athletes who don't train and get by on native athleticism.

 

 

 

 

I think the broader picture is that he just doesn't believe in the process that Brady, Brees and to a similar extent Rodgers have adhered to in terms of diet and training.   Guessing how much he works out is too subjective.   The path he is taking is,  perhaps not coincidentally,  the easiest.   Whether it is/was the best for his career........like I said, his success and longevity with be the proof.

[muppy]

well folks TBD now has negativity threads across several platforms including the main board and OTW.  I come here for the various views and reads on things. 

 

However having said that, whomever thinks this place is a circle jerk think tank of positivity sunshine and rainbows is full of baloney . There are concerns about the team that cannot bee answered until the games are actually played. I don't like to stifle banter.  Those inclined  can stew boil and bubble all their negativity till the cows come home. It won't change a thing. And it doesn't even really bother me all that much. My brain has a circular file that works Great just sayin'

 

GO BILLS...the ONE thing we all agree on 🙂

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think the broader picture is that he just doesn't believe in the process that Brady, Brees and to a similar extent Rodgers have adhered to in terms of diet and training.   Guessing how much he works out is too subjective.   The path he is taking is,  perhaps not coincidentally,  the easiest.   Whether it is/was the best for his career........like I said, his success and longevity with be the proof.

yeah… another common theme. For example in an interview topic about nutrition regimen (old school). No special diet, If overweight just stop eating. 

[CincyBillsFan]

19 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

No- I was talking about the guy in the men’s health article that grinds in the gym during the offseason with a trainer after winning superbowls. Seems like maybe the myopic view that Josh outworks every player in the nfl is a tad homercentric …

 

the hero worship is pure and innocent though, so carry on. 

 

Classic trolling.  Throw out something that no one is actually saying and then run with it. 

 

The comments I'm seeing about Allen outworking other QB's are related to his career where he was faced with the challenge of improving his mechanics.  That he did so in spite of much of the national sports media claiming that he could not is a testament to his hard work in the off season.  Palmer reinforced this in multiple interviews and we all saw the product of Allen's hard work on the field.