Kirksey signing with the Bills PS

[Warriorspikes51]

It would be encouraging to see Kirksey moved onto the 53 by Tues-Wed

 

Or, if Sean wants to play coy we could just wait and elevate him for the game and have him start (in hopes the Jets planned on attacking Dodson….which any logical OC & QB would do)

Edited September 3, 2023 by Warriorspikes51

[hondo in seattle]

On 9/1/2023 at 5:53 PM, Shaw66 said:

 

 

I think the game has changed, and old timers like me are just catching up to that fact.  

Kirksey will be the guy.  He has experience calling the defense, which is part of the problem with Dodson, Bernard and Williams.  He has been an effective pass defender.  And he's better against the run than Edmunds, and a better blitzer, too.   He is not going to be a star, but as I've been saying, the Bills seems to have decided that middle linebacker is the position where a star is least necessary.  

 

Shaw, I respect your knowledge of the LB position and am not trying to be argumentative.  But is it really correct that Kirksey has been an effective pass defender?   I don't know the player very well but I thought I read somewhere that his PFF pass defense grade last season was in the low 50s which ranked him something like 89th among LBs as I recall.  

 

Beane and McD are clearly in the modern age when it comes to LBs being more pass defenders than run defenders these days.  Yet they sign a guy who's not a good pass defender - and arguably not a good defender of any kind.  Though his experience and intelligence would probably make him a better leader from that position than any of the younger guys.  I wonder what Beane and McD are seeing and thinking other than the very obvious - the MLBs on the 53-man roster aren't very good.  

[John from Riverside]

I remember back when the huge concerns were starting a linebacker that was too small
 

Kirksey is 6 foot two and 236 pounds so definitely more beef

[Shaw66]

39 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Shaw, I respect your knowledge of the LB position and am not trying to be argumentative.  But is it really correct that Kirksey has been an effective pass defender?   I don't know the player very well but I thought I read somewhere that his PFF pass defense grade last season was in the low 50s which ranked him something like 89th among LBs as I recall.  

 

Beane and McD are clearly in the modern age when it comes to LBs being more pass defenders than run defenders these days.  Yet they sign a guy who's not a good pass defender - and arguably not a good defender of any kind.  Though his experience and intelligence would probably make him a better leader from that position than any of the younger guys.  I wonder what Beane and McD are seeing and thinking other than the very obvious - the MLBs on the 53-man roster aren't very good.  

I don't really know how good Kirksey is, but this is what I think about his pass defense:  Rushing defense is more instinctive, pass defense, particularly in zones, is more intellectual.  In pass defense you need to learn where to drop, how to read multiple keys.  You can't turn around look at the other defenders and reposition yourself.  You just have to know where to go, and that's learned.   That is, I think, what Dodson and Bernard and Williams have trouble with.  They have to learn that, and they aren't ready to play pass defense effectively (if they ever will be).

 

Kirksey has started in the NFL for a long time.   He has learned that stuff - if he couldn't play pass defense, teams wouldn't have continued to sign him to nice, multi-year deals.   So, I conclude from that that he's at least adequate back there.    

 

I don't see how he can be "not a good defender of any kind."  GMs aren't stupid.  They have scouts who study a lot of film on guys before they draft and before they sign them.  If Kirksey were not a good defender, or at least adequate, he wouldn't have the contract history his has.  In the three seasons where he played the entire season, he had 130, 130, and 140 tackles.   In five seasons in the NFL, Edmunds got over 100 once - 105.  The guy must know how to play.   Staying healthy is the big issue for him, and possibly age. 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Shaw, I respect your knowledge of the LB position and am not trying to be argumentative.  But is it really correct that Kirksey has been an effective pass defender?   I don't know the player very well but I thought I read somewhere that his PFF pass defense grade last season was in the low 50s which ranked him something like 89th among LBs as I recall.  

 

Beane and McD are clearly in the modern age when it comes to LBs being more pass defenders than run defenders these days.  Yet they sign a guy who's not a good pass defender - and arguably not a good defender of any kind.  Though his experience and intelligence would probably make him a better leader from that position than any of the younger guys.  I wonder what Beane and McD are seeing and thinking other than the very obvious - the MLBs on the 53-man roster aren't very good.  

 

I don't know about PFF pass defense grades.

 

But last season, Kirksey had a passer rating of 90.1 against him.  That's 132nd in the league.  Completion percentage against him was 75%.

 

For comparison, Tremaine Edmunds had a passer rating of 69.9 against him, Milano 62.6 (#13 in the league), Poyer 60.1 (#8 in the league)

 

And in McDermott's defense, linebackers most definitely have to do both.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Beck Water

[BADOLBILZ]

8 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I don't know about PFF pass defense grades.

 

But last season, Kirksey had a passer rating of 90.1 against him.  That's 132nd in the league.  Completion percentage against him was 75%.

 

For comparison, Tremaine Edmunds had a passer rating of 69.9 against him, Milano 62.6 (#13 in the league), Poyer 60.1 (#8 in the league)

 

And in McDermott's defense, linebackers most definitely have to do both.

 

 

Kirksey's passer rating against was better than Tremaine Edmund's in both 2020 and 2021 though..........and that 90 rating last year was also notably better than Tremaine in 2020-2021.    

 

Point being that last year was an outlier for Edmunds......but not the Bills defense.

 

The Bills defense was still good in 2020 and 2021 when Edmunds passer rating against was well over 100 in those seasons.

 

 

 

[34-78-83]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Shaw, I respect your knowledge of the LB position and am not trying to be argumentative.  But is it really correct that Kirksey has been an effective pass defender?   I don't know the player very well but I thought I read somewhere that his PFF pass defense grade last season was in the low 50s which ranked him something like 89th among LBs as I recall.  

 

Beane and McD are clearly in the modern age when it comes to LBs being more pass defenders than run defenders these days.  Yet they sign a guy who's not a good pass defender - and arguably not a good defender of any kind.  Though his experience and intelligence would probably make him a better leader from that position than any of the younger guys.  I wonder what Beane and McD are seeing and thinking other than the very obvious - the MLBs on the 53-man roster aren't very good.  

 

[BillsFanForever19]

20 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

It would be encouraging to see Kirksey moved onto the 53 by Tues-Wed

 

Or, if Sean wants to play coy we could just wait and elevate him for the game and have him start (in hopes the Jets planned on attacking Dodson….which any logical OC & QB would do)

 

I mean, it's all good to have hopes and wants.

 

But I really think you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you honestly think Kirksey is going to Start Week 1.

 

He's coming off injury, didn't have any offseason, needs to learn the playbook, and is coming to a new team with a coach that is notoriously slow when it comes to bringing new players along.

 

Is it likely Bernard and Dodson will under perform and lead McDermott to start Kirksey in the future? Yes. Week 1 though? I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

And as far as game planning goes, the Jets are going to run the same offense and plays regardless of whether it's Dodson, Bernard, or Kirksey. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[RichRiderBills]

For a team with LB issues, you would not fully know it from PS. Surprised we did not retain Travin Howard. Looked like a screamer who could fit well in our system. 

[JohnNord]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Kirksey's passer rating against was better than Tremaine Edmund's in both 2020 and 2021 though..........and that 90 rating last year was also notably better than Tremaine in 2020-2021.    

 

Point being that last year was an outlier for Edmunds......but not the Bills defense.

 

The Bills defense was still good in 2020 and 2021 when Edmunds passer rating against was well over 100 in those seasons.

 

 

 

This is a good point.  Even if he’s not as good as Edmunds last season, I think it’s very plausible that he’s a better overall option than Bernard and much better than Dodson.  
 

It sounds like, at worst, Kirksey is a better version of AJ Klein 

[akcash]

Kirksey is very nice to have on the team. I'm excited to see what Dodson and Bernard can do. I am really excited to see Dodson a few games. Hes got a really nice physical skillset and instincts in the run game. Hes got a really nice backpedal too and can get back quick like a DB. Bernard is intriguing too. I feel like kirksey is a guy after a month we can put in at any point and can be a stable piece in the middle.

[Shaw66]

15 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

Bottom line, we need more "splash"/impactul plays from our new MLB. 

 

 

I don't think so.  I don't think the Bills will get them Kirksey, and I don't think the Bills need them.  I mean, I'd like some sacks from the middle linebacker, and I'd like some nice stuffed runs in the middle from the middle linebacker, but I think that what I've been saying is that the middle linebacker isn't the guy the Bills are looking to to be the big-play guy.  They hoped Edmunds would be that, but I think the recent draft/free agency history of Beane suggests that they no longer thing that kind of guy is a "need" on defense.  

 

We're happy to have Hyde and Poyer and White - all impactful players.  Beane drafted Elam to be one, although he hasn't worked out.  He drafted Rousseau and Oliver to be impactful, and he signed Miller and Leonard and Jones to be impactful.  At middle linebacker, all he's done is get guys they hope can play the position adequately.   

 

Beane's problem last month was that no one on the roster was filling the hole adequately.  That's why they got Kirksey - in his career he's shown he can be adequate.  Not impactful, but adequate.  

[Paul Costa]

I think the missing variable with Kirksay is he’s always played on below average defenses. Plug him into a top 5 defense like ours and he may show out even more. Plus he’s not going to be a three down player. Less is more. I feel he’s going to thrive in this defense with his role. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Paul Costa

[NoSaint]

14 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Shaw, I respect your knowledge of the LB position and am not trying to be argumentative.  But is it really correct that Kirksey has been an effective pass defender?   I don't know the player very well but I thought I read somewhere that his PFF pass defense grade last season was in the low 50s which ranked him something like 89th among LBs as I recall.  

 

Beane and McD are clearly in the modern age when it comes to LBs being more pass defenders than run defenders these days.  Yet they sign a guy who's not a good pass defender - and arguably not a good defender of any kind.  Though his experience and intelligence would probably make him a better leader from that position than any of the younger guys.  I wonder what Beane and McD are seeing and thinking other than the very obvious - the MLBs on the 53-man roster aren't very good.  

he’s been signed to the practice squad so I’m not sure they are seeing a clear solution so much as another lottery ticket

[John from Riverside]

People want a pro bowler
What they’re probably gonna get it’s an above average linebacker

[FireChans]

22 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't think so.  I don't think the Bills will get them Kirksey, and I don't think the Bills need them.  I mean, I'd like some sacks from the middle linebacker, and I'd like some nice stuffed runs in the middle from the middle linebacker, but I think that what I've been saying is that the middle linebacker isn't the guy the Bills are looking to to be the big-play guy.  They hoped Edmunds would be that, but I think the recent draft/free agency history of Beane suggests that they no longer thing that kind of guy is a "need" on defense.  

 

We're happy to have Hyde and Poyer and White - all impactful players.  Beane drafted Elam to be one, although he hasn't worked out.  He drafted Rousseau and Oliver to be impactful, and he signed Miller and Leonard and Jones to be impactful.  At middle linebacker, all he's done is get guys they hope can play the position adequately.   

 

Beane's problem last month was that no one on the roster was filling the hole adequately.  That's why they got Kirksey - in his career he's shown he can be adequate.  Not impactful, but adequate.  

Idk man, I’d say more impact plays on defense would be good, particularly in the playoffs.

[NoSaint]

14 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

People want a pro bowler
What they’re probably gonna get it’s an above average linebacker

I don’t even think I’d say above average. This isn’t some fringe top 10 mlb right now. 

[Rockinon]

Could be a while before we bring him up from the practice squad. Takes time to learn that position.

[MasterStrategist]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't think so.  I don't think the Bills will get them Kirksey, and I don't think the Bills need them.  I mean, I'd like some sacks from the middle linebacker, and I'd like some nice stuffed runs in the middle from the middle linebacker, but I think that what I've been saying is that the middle linebacker isn't the guy the Bills are looking to to be the big-play guy.  They hoped Edmunds would be that, but I think the recent draft/free agency history of Beane suggests that they no longer thing that kind of guy is a "need" on defense.  

 

We're happy to have Hyde and Poyer and White - all impactful players.  Beane drafted Elam to be one, although he hasn't worked out.  He drafted Rousseau and Oliver to be impactful, and he signed Miller and Leonard and Jones to be impactful.  At middle linebacker, all he's done is get guys they hope can play the position adequately.   

 

Beane's problem last month was that no one on the roster was filling the hole adequately.  That's why they got Kirksey - in his career he's shown he can be adequate.  Not impactful, but adequate.  

Sorry my point was mainly geared toward losing Edmunds, and how we can still get better at that spot (in 1 specific aspect: impactful plays).

 

I'm not expecting Kirksey to be an all-pro, or even pro bowler, "average" is actually fine.

 

But Tremaine was average at best, IMO, at impactful plays.  FF, sacks, Ints etc

 

Again, that was something that he never "took the next step with", if he had, I think he'd be in a Bills uniform still.  Impactful plays was the constant discussion/focus from Frazier/Coach LY, in terms of Edmunds and defense in general.

 

I think Kirskey, and however we run subpackages at MLB, has the "potential" to generate more impactful plays.  Not just Kirskey himself, albeit he's shown a bit more than Tremaine in this area historically.

 

I do think that's a "need" in terms of improvement area, against upper echelon teams and in the playoffs.  Is it the top need? No.

 

I think Josh/Dorsey/offense improving turnovers and RZ efficiency are the top priorities, that will lead to a better overall team.  Likely that could carry us, if they execute fairly flawlessly.   But this defense has always been about giving up the small plays and forcing teams into mistakes, over long drives...be it penalties, turnovers etc.  That's something we can improve on, as a defense in general and at MLB

[akcash]

Dodson/Bernard/Kirksey, Dotson/Bernard/Kirksey, Dime, repeat.